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The only 2 GW things I have purchased in the last year are the Tyranid codex and a box of Bloodletters. I have only been playing sonce 2010 and they have already alienated me. I still play, mostly because my playgroup has a lot of old gamers that have literally thousands of GW models and don't want to buy into a whole new game. Even they have pretty much stopped buying the gw stuff, however; opting for "alternate" models of far eastern origins. After the abomination that was the 'Nid codex, i can state that I will never buy a GW rulebook or codex again, after getting charged a premium price for basically 80% copy/paste - fool me once and all that jazz . As far as models, even when I buy I stay on Ebay/3rd party. After the mess that was the financial report, I am really wanting to get out of GW entirely, but even the members of my group that have dropped GW have not gone to another tabletop game, but have instead gotten into board games, which only minimally interest me. I am really wanting to try Malifaux, however. I am considering buying 2 starter crews and the rulebook (for about the same as one battleforce it seems like) just to get the others to try without any buy in.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.

In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.

The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.

That's all well and good in another industry but this is an immensely social and community driven hobby and GW rely on word of mouth as advertisment.

I've personally convinced at least a couple of friends not to start warhammer and a third to start infinity alongside his 40k. That's a lot of money GW is missing out on because I am dissatisfied and making noise about it.

If us unhappy people spread our experiences 10 times more than happy people GW should be focusing on maintaining at least 11 times as many happy customers as unhappy. At the moment it seems more like they expect us to buy anything they release without a second thought so why bother trying to keep us happy.

Look at it this way - when the biggest third party online seller of Games Workshop products in Australia says their Games Workshop sales have shrunk to 15% of their total sales over recent years, and that Dystopian Wars second edition was outselling 7th edition 40k 7 to 1, Games Workshops flagship title, there's something wrong at least on this continent.

Yeah, I've barely bought anything since...six ed? I bought new books for armies I played, even the Warboss edition codex (which shipped WITHOUT its custom number properly printed)...even a box of Greatswords, which used to seem really overpriced but now actually feels quite affordable compared to their other offerings.

For funzies, I made a "wish list" spread sheet of all the models I would want in various games (along with their MSRP...the idea was to be able to have a quick reference if I could get a deal on something I wanted.) Even though my expansions for GW stuff were relatively modest, they were still the most expensive. I can practically buy the rest of the decent Cygnar faction models I don't own for a unit of Ironbreakers and some Gyros.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.

In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.

The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.

That's a logical fallacy.

It is fair to assume that one negative comment probably represents three to four similar experiences whereas one positive comment probably represents eight to ten similar experiences. It is fallacious, however, to infer positive experiences from negative feedback.

At the end of the day, GW is having an increasingly difficult time concealing its hemorrhaging of customers. The financial reports are what they are, and have been painting a consistent picture for the past five years at least. And with the way that GW treats independent retailers, many will be happy to see GW's products eclipsed by competitors. As a lot of these responses have indicated, GW's loss of a customer does not usually equate to the industry's loss of a customer. In fact, the TTG market is growing fast and hard, with at least double digit growth each of the past several years, which is really fast growth.

GW's market share is being nibbled off by a rapidly expanding pool of competitors. Personally, my hobby expenditures have increased exponentially in the years since I stopped buying from GW, and have been spread to an increasingly diversified number of businesses. In short, I am buying more miniatures from more companies because there are more and better products available every year. That's a good thing for the industry.

What do the people posting in this thread #I'mNOTpartofthereason think of GW as a company in 2014 compared to the completely different entity that existed even 10 or 12 years ago? And which do they prefer? Which of those companies actually engaged with its fanbase, offered a wide variety of games for sale, supported tournaments and proper events etc?

The point I want to mention is that I don't think a monopoly is good for the customer in any industry. GW arguably came pretty close to monopolising sci-fi-fantasy wargaming, and you could say that a lot of their less popular policies in the last decade are based on the assumption that the customer, wanting to play sci-fi or fantasy games, has no other option than to buy from GW. I think really that is the only way to explain some of the jumps in price, the production of a low quality replacement of metal, the dropping of games and reduction in places to play, the RoW ban, the hard-line policies on independent sellers.. I could go on.

People turning to other games (or perhaps quitting altogether) will perhaps ultimately be a good thing for both GW and the industry. Money talks, and no matter how introverted and incompetent the upper management they will be forced to look at the reasons why the profits of the company have dropped. They might start trying to do more than increase frequency of re-launches and bolt-on DLC, and we could ultimately end up with a better GW once more. A return to imagination and creativity in terms of the products they release, let their rules and story writers do more than just regurgitate material, actually put the 'games' back into Games Workshop.

So, I think being a conscientious shopper, telling GW what they are doing right and doing wrong, ultimately that's good for everyone and even GW ultimately.

I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.

So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.

Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.

So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.

THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.

I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.

I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.

 monders wrote:
I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.

So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.

Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.

So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.

THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.

I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.

I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.

Wait, O;I box set threw you off? How? That thing's amazing. There's never been a better time to start Infinity.

I think he meant it as a good thing. Icestorm could be what kills his remaining interest in GW.

MWHistorian wrote:

Spoiler:

 monders wrote:
I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.

So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.

Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.

So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.

THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.

I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.

I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.

Wait, O;I box set threw you off? How? That thing's amazing. There's never been a better time to start Infinity.

No, I meant I'm glad I didn't throw money at the current V2 rules and old PO starter set.

I may not be too clear as I'm giddy as a kipper about picking up my O:I set tomorrow!

jonolikespie wrote:I think he meant it as a good thing. Icestorm could be what kills his remaining interest in GW.

Yep!

 monders wrote:

MWHistorian wrote:

Spoiler:

 monders wrote:
I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.

So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.

Then I gave X-Wing a go. Meh. It was OK, but almost too simple and not a lot happens. I was hoping for it to be more cinematic I suppose.

So I started buying stuff for my lizardmen again.

THEN I had a demo game of Infinity, watched all the Infinity things online and just as I was about to throw a load of cash at it, they announced O:I.

I think this will be the death knell of my GW love in. I'll see what 9th Ed Fantasy brings (smaller units please) but apart from finishing painting my lizards and old 2nd Ed Eldar I'll be done.

I'll not be buying 7th ed 40k rules, nor the new books for Marines and Space Wolves. The ones I purchased when getting back in to the hobby are less than three years old.

Wait, O;I box set threw you off? How? That thing's amazing. There's never been a better time to start Infinity.

No, I meant I'm glad I didn't throw money at the current V2 rules and old PO starter set.

I may not be too clear as I'm giddy as a kipper about picking up my O:I set tomorrow!

jonolikespie wrote:I think he meant it as a good thing. Icestorm could be what kills his remaining interest in GW.

Yep!

LOL! I misunderstood that one. My apologies. Glad you're excited about a game. I love that feeling.

 monders wrote:
I wanted to be a part of the reason, so I swung over to Mantic but the awful models and shonky rule books put paid to that. I'm willing to revisit Dreadball and Deadzone though.

So I started buying stuff for my marines and lizardmen again.

This is the boat that I'm in, I backed the Mantic KoW and Deadzone Kickstarters and have been greatly disappointed with anything not in plastic (and even the Men at Arms in plastic). Then I've dealt with the constantly mispacked boxes and missing pieces, etc. Mantic is certainly not for me.

I tried Warmachine and got into Cryx; I like the models, the fluff and the gameplay but nobody in my area wants to play.

Most people in my area are now into XWing and I have zero interest in this game. I realize that it's still in its relative infancy but there is nealy no variety; if I got into a spaceship game, I'd be more interested in STAW but noone here plays that.

So, I'm stuck with GW for now.

I'm lucky in that I'm somewhat spoilt for choice. There is a store that has 40k, but I found a comic shop near where I used to live (not far from where I live now) that has a thriving Warmachine community, like a dozen or more people all having fun every Saturday. So outside of the occasional morbid curiosity I have zero reason to play 40k again since I can play better game with friendlier people and not feel totally drained because it's on the weekends and I don't have work (the 40k store plays during the week, so I'd be leaving work and going to play and not getting home until late).

So much in fact that I'm going to look at becoming a Press Ganger for Privateer Press.

#I'mpartofthereason for sure. In total I have bought three GW products this year and I am currently awaiting the third order to come through this Thursday. It will spell the end of me buying GW kits from GW stores. They are just too damn expensive, especially when for the price of one of their tanks I can purchase a highly detailed historical kit with full interior detailing and some extra detail packs for it at 1:35th scale.

I try to go every friday to my flgs because that's when I find the other warmachine players. Last friday there were four WM players and two 40k players. By being regular with WM I'm helping others get games in more often. That will bring more attention to WM in my area and bring in more players.

Increase bit by bit.

I am not part of the reason.

It's not my fault the prices are to high.

It's not my fault 40K is a crappy game and not fun to play.

It's not my fault GW doesn't know how to write rules clearly and concisely.

It's not my fault GW doesn't know how to edit properly.

It's not my fault GW new layout for codices are bland and uninspiring.

It's not my fault GW doesn't support their games.

It's not my fault GW limits what you can buy and have to buy online.

It's not my fault GW decides to change rule editions less than every 2 years.

It's not my fault GW has poor game developers who don't know what they are doing, and don't know how to write a good rules system and make proper fun codices.

It's not my fault GW doesn't know how to balance their game.

It's not my fault there is no value in what they produce.

It's not my fault I am more of a burden to GW than actually wanting me as a customer. Wait, maybe that is my fault. Heaven for bid, I want value in the products I purchase from GW and not have a hard time trying to buy them, and want great quality in their books and support when mistakes are made. Heaven forbid I want to have a game where I don't have to argue with someone how a rule works and just want to have a fun game.

 cincydooley wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I am the Auld Grump, and... I am part of the reason.

It has been a bit over two years since I last bought a GW model, and I am still taking one day at a time.

The Auld Grump, aw, who am I kidding, I have just switched addictions to cheaper drugs miniatures. Mantic had the first dose for free....

So I'm guessing you must not have an addiction to quality then

To be fair, I'll never understand the attraction that people have to Mantic's models. I tried with Deadzone. I really did.

I have an addiction to value for money.

If you like GW, I take it that you do not share that addiction?

I have an addiction to quality rules.

If you like GW, I take it that is not a concern?

I have an addiction to balance between forces.

If you like GW, I take it that you do not care if some of the forces hasn't been updated in three editions or more?

I have an addiction to quality models, I play Mantic undead.

I take it that you have an addiction to a company that makes frivolous lwsuits, and has price increases far in excess of either inflation or even the rest of the hobby?

I do not share that addiction.

I take it that you have an addiction to management that ignores market forces, and boasts of that in their own financial reports?

I do not have that addiction.

You have an addiction to company that belittles their own customers?

If I had that addiction then I would be using an iPhone.

Enough said?

In other words, I have weighed the merits of GW vs Mantic, and found GW badly wanting.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* The post looked strange with no 'a's....

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.

In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.

The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.

Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.

But to be fair Dakka is a fairly cynical forum. Our motto is that we love Warhammer but hate GW. There are happy 40K forums out there, but they're just white knights.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.

In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.

The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.

Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.

I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.

 cincydooley wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.

In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.

The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.

Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.

I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.

Dismissing other people's opinions as 'trolling' doesn't somehow remove the problems GW are facing.

I'm not part of the reason yet. I've spent between $1,200-1,500 on GW since 7th was released. However, the last tournament I played in left a bad taste in my mouth and my GW is in the process of looking for a new manager so I started WMH. I played a tournament at the GW where everything was allowed and we only used rulebook missions. I went up against a necron player using the c'tan. Even with my list that's capable of top tens at major tournaments, I got slaughtered. It was 3 turns of rules lawyering and me picking up models so I conceded and won't be back for the next round. Myself and another guy are typically the top 40k guys in the area and after speaking to him, he's starting WMH also. We're slowly going to convert our 20-25 strong 40k group over to WMH. Considering we were the ones keeping the local GW alive (old manager said our core group was 80% of his revenue), if we all switch to WMH that store won't be around much longer.

I have come to the conclusion that it is not the people that have stopped buying GW products that are the problem - it is the ever shrinking pool of white knights, that give GW a vocal minority that they can agree with.

And that GW tunes out the ever growing pool of disgruntled gamers....

I just hope that the 3rd party manufacturers that support GW can find a market after GW sinks beneath the waves....

It is strange... I cannot help but compare what GW is doing with what WotC did with D&D 4e... and seeing that at least WotC took steps to correct the problems.

If I were to guess which company would still be here in ten years... I would not make even odds on GW, but feel fairly confident that WotC will still be around.

The Auld Grump

 jonolikespie wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.

In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.

The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.

Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.

I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.

Dismissing other people's opinions as 'trolling' doesn't somehow remove the problems GW are facing.

I didn't dismiss anyone's opinion. At all.

It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that it is not the people that have stopped buying GW products that are the problem - it is the ever shrinking pool of white knights, that give GW a vocal minority that they can agree with.

Or, as if on queue, someone would jump in to call that positive "white knighting."

Let us see....

Pops into a thread that is specifically by folks that are disgruntled with GW....

Dismisses their opinions...

Nope, no white knights here today!

The Auld Grump

I didn't dismiss a single opinion. Read my comment, which was on direct response to "unhappy people make the most noise"

Perhaps I should be specified that I meant "start a thread about positive GW experiences?" I assumed that would be inferred, as there's not that much nuance of language in there, but clearly not.

I again clarified in my following post when I said:

It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.

So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:

I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.

My whole group has fallen apart. 20+ gun-ho tournament players 3 years ago has turned into a handful of people saying "7th isn't all that bad..."

feth GW.

Let the Galaxy Burn!


Can't wait for my O:I to get here!

 cincydooley wrote:
So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:

I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.

You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?

 Yonan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:

I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.

You mean like this thread where the people who dislike GW played nice but the thread was bombarded by the start with useless posts saying "INCOMING HATERS" followed by personal attacks against us?

History??! What's that?!?! Links or it didn't happen. OH WAIT....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But seriously this is kind of a bash thread. A couple of pages ago it started off constructive enough, not the GW people would read anything from Dakka. By page 3 it's just CHAOS!!!!

 cincydooley wrote:
I didn't dismiss a single opinion. Read my comment, which was on direct response to "unhappy people make the most noise"

Perhaps I should be specified that I meant "start a thread about positive GW experiences?" I assumed that would be inferred, as there's not that much nuance of language in there, but clearly not.

I again clarified in my following post when I said:

It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.

So let's rephrase very simply, without nuance or subtley:

I (and many others, I'm sure) would start threads about positive GW experiences, but anytime ANYONE does, others (see: trolls) come in to the thread specifically to antagonize and tell them how their positive GW experiences are wrong and that their opinion is therefore wrong.

I see a lot of positive comments in the DakkaDakka modeling blogs but those do not count off course right?

 cincydooley wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unhappy people make the most noise. In business there´s a saying that one unhappy customer will spread his experience ten times more than a happy customer.

In short, for every person saying they quit playing because of 7th ed, they don´t like GW, blah blah blah there will be many more people who like playing and are fine with GW´s games.

The people who are fine with things just don´t make threads about it, the unhappy do.

Forums for other games are filled with happy people that love talking about the game they're passionate about. When I played 40k I loved talking about the all things I thought were awesome.
Right now, it's the amount of people complaining that shows there's a large problem. Coupled with GW's declining revenue shows a loss of customers.
Something's going on and I don't have all the answers, but if GW choose to ignore this, their future won't be very good.

I'd espouse how happy I am about tons of GW things, but on this forum that is to trolls what an open bar is to frat boys.

Dismissing other people's opinions as 'trolling' doesn't somehow remove the problems GW are facing.

I didn't dismiss anyone's opinion. At all.

It's pretty typical that anytime anyone starts a positive GW thread, you can barely hit "Submit" before someone is there to tell you that you're wrong, and that what you experienced wasn't positive, and the GW is in fact, the Devil.

Hyperbole aside, if you post a thread about something on a discussion forum, you have to expect views from the opposite side. It's a discussion, after all. What you're expecting is a circlejerk.