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I am thinking of starting Chaos Space Marines but from what I have heard people have been complaining about the codex for a while now. Given GW's current codex cycling rate, and that codex C:SM was one of the first 6th edition codices, do you think it is a good idea to buy it now or will we see a new Chaos codex in 2015? After all - we had an edition change just 1.9 years after 6th, and the Chaos codex is already almost 2 years old

I personally doubt that the new codex will be anytime soon and I think people exaggerate the badness of the codex so if you want to play them I'd get it.

The Chaos Space Marine codex is one of the worst conceived codices ever. It's second only to Tyranids in terms of being pathetic in internal balance and is riddled with extremely poor written units. The Tyranids is still a better codex though, for at least their power level (especially with their formations) is decent. CSM has nothing going for them, except for the Helldrake and what ever else you could care to put Nurgle on. Save your money and wait for a proper release with CSM. If you really want to play with a traitor legion though, do yourself the favor of buying the Forge World books with legion rules. The different traits of the legions are far better represented and have much better internal balance than the pile of junk that is the CSM codex.

No, they will begin to shift gears by throwing new fantasy stuff out there as we are beginning to see now. What I expect is that people will scream bloody murder if these new codexes are outdated again after such a small cycle. What you can expect from Chaos Space Marines is rather limited. You can expect to field a helturkey at least 1, plague marines, plague bikers, and obliterators all lead by a nurgle lord. You can run other lords but a Lord with T5 is far deadlier than a Lord with +1i or +1A. Plague bikers will be your greatest bread and butter too as they will be T6. Abuse the hell out of the toughest bikers in the game. It is statistically smarter to use a higher toughness over a better invul save as not having to make a save is better than having to make one.)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine codex is one of the worst conceived codices ever. It's second only to Tyranids in terms of being pathetic in internal balance and is riddled with extremely poor written units. The Tyranids is still a better codex though, for at least their power level (especially with their formations) is decent. CSM has nothing going for them, except for the Helldrake and what ever else you could care to put Nurgle on. Save your money and wait for a proper release with CSM. If you really want to play with a traitor legion though, do yourself the favor of buying the Forge World books with legion rules. The different traits of the legions are far better represented and have much better internal balance than the pile of junk that is the CSM codex.

I would like to point this out as not true, I've seen Nids stomp peoples faces in time and time again with their new dex.

Dark Angels and Chaos Marines are fighting for the back of the bus, not nids.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I am thinking of starting Chaos Space Marines but from what I have heard people have been complaining about the codex for a while now. Given GW's current codex cycling rate, and that codex C:SM was one of the first 6th edition codices, do you think it is a good idea to buy it now or will we see a new Chaos codex in 2015? After all - we had an edition change just 1.9 years after 6th, and the Chaos codex is already almost 2 years old

It depends on what you want to play. If you want to have lots of Plague Marines, Nurgle Themed bikers and spawn and perhaps a Khorne Lord riding a juggernaught and a heldrake the current codex could be for you.

If you want undivided chaos, daemon princes, renegades, tzeench, slanesh, khorn other than the lord on a jugger then you would probably be better waiting.

 BunkerBob wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine codex is one of the worst conceived codices ever. It's second only to Tyranids in terms of being pathetic in internal balance and is riddled with extremely poor written units. The Tyranids is still a better codex though, for at least their power level (especially with their formations) is decent. CSM has nothing going for them, except for the Helldrake and what ever else you could care to put Nurgle on. Save your money and wait for a proper release with CSM. If you really want to play with a traitor legion though, do yourself the favor of buying the Forge World books with legion rules. The different traits of the legions are far better represented and have much better internal balance than the pile of junk that is the CSM codex.

I would like to point this out as not true, I've seen Nids stomp peoples faces in time and time again with their new dex.

Dark Angels and Chaos Marines are fighting for the back of the bus, not nids.

Perhaps you should read the bold part again?

If your interested then why not. Even if you don't get an army their great reads and have some awesome art in and may help you know your enemy

I'd go for it. It depends a bit on how you want to play; I'm gonna use the SM dex (with Raptor tactics and Lias Issodon) with IG allies and a Vindicare to better emulate Alpha Legion strategy.

 BunkerBob wrote:
No, they will begin to shift gears by throwing new fantasy stuff out there as we are beginning to see now. What I expect is that people will scream bloody murder if these new codexes are outdated again after such a small cycle. What you can expect from Chaos Space Marines is rather limited. You can expect to field a helturkey at least 1, plague marines, plague bikers, and obliterators all lead by a nurgle lord. You can run other lords but a Lord with T5 is far deadlier than a Lord with +1i or +1A. Plague bikers will be your greatest bread and butter too as they will be T6. Abuse the hell out of the toughest bikers in the game. It is statistically smarter to use a higher toughness over a better invul save as not having to make a save is better than having to make one.)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine codex is one of the worst conceived codices ever. It's second only to Tyranids in terms of being pathetic in internal balance and is riddled with extremely poor written units. The Tyranids is still a better codex though, for at least their power level (especially with their formations) is decent. CSM has nothing going for them, except for the Helldrake and what ever else you could care to put Nurgle on. Save your money and wait for a proper release with CSM. If you really want to play with a traitor legion though, do yourself the favor of buying the Forge World books with legion rules. The different traits of the legions are far better represented and have much better internal balance than the pile of junk that is the CSM codex.

I would like to point this out as not true, I've seen Nids stomp peoples faces in time and time again with their new dex.

Dark Angels and Chaos Marines are fighting for the back of the bus, not nids.

Actually as has been shown by tournaments, DA beats out Chaos by a full 15% win rate, Chaos is only ahead of Blood Angels.

Sir Arun wrote:I am thinking of starting Chaos Space Marines but from what I have heard people have been complaining about the codex for a while now.

That doesn't matter at all. People complain about things all the time.

Even if it did matter, the number of people complaining about the CSM codex are dwarfed by the number of people who don't.

Sir Arun wrote:Given GW's current codex cycling rate, and that codex C:SM was one of the first 6th edition codices, do you think it is a good idea to buy it now or will we see a new Chaos codex in 2015? After all - we had an edition change just 1.9 years after 6th, and the Chaos codex is already almost 2 years old

I guess that depends on what your goals are. If you're just getting started right now and are going to take several months before you have a thousand points, then maybe yes, it might be worth waiting. If, on the other hand, you're pretty much ready to go right now, or want to play as you paint stuff, then you might as well just get the codex now.

Yeah i have dislikes with it but i dont need to WAAC. so im good with it.

now as to rumours haha october was/is slated to be the month of chaos with new WoC stuff etc in fantasy, it may slip along but i wouldnt count on it. they still have BA to do (is there any other 5th ed books left? )

but look it can be a good book as long as winning everytime isnt what your after.

I enjoy the Chaos Space Marines codex. It's not my favorite codex out right now or my favorite Chaos codex there's ever been, but it's fun. As for it getting replaced, it is the oldest codex using the current hardcover format and there's still a couple armies left to update. However, I think that once all the 40k codices are updated GW will probably focus on Fantasy for a while. I'd say it's safe to buy.

Thanks for the input, guys.

I was flicking through my friend's codex and actually thought that units most chaos players do not bring to the table are also decent - the flying ML3 Daemon Prince in power armor looks like he can wreck face if you can keep him hopping from cover to cover, Maulerfiends look like fast flank movers that can get to enemy parking lots in good time to me, Triple ectoplasma cannon Forgefields look like they can mess up Crisis suits or Draigowing pretty bad, and the fact that you can take Legion troops as objective secured troops choices if you take the right chaos icon on your HQ is also nice. Massed AP3 bolter fire from Thousand sons along with a decent inv. save look nice. I was experimenting on some Noise Marines yesterday - they seem to be the perfect choice against armies like Nids or Orks, or Dark Eldar where you can expect to stay back and receive the attackers - 24 S4 AP5 ignores cover sonic blaster shots and a S8 AP3 blast with pinning - and then a S5 AP3 flamer from the blastmaster along with 5+ FNP on the entire unit is a great way to hold an objective against anything but terminators.

If Chaos only had access to drop pods...

If you want to play Chaos, buy the Chaos codex.

Doesn't really get much simpler than that.

Sure, you can wait a few years for the next one, but then that's a few years you've wasted not playing.

NO

There are some halfway decent options in the Chaos Codex, but they are also quite expensive.

Thousand Sons are good at shooting Space Marines, but they're no better against an Ork than a normal Chaos marine and cost 50% more. The invulnerable save is okay, but if you factor in cover for other units they still look overpriced.

Plague Marines and Noise Marines are a Chaos player's bread and butter. Usually Plague Marines with a Nurgle Lord, sometimes Noise Marines with a Slaanesh Lord. Both are still expensive making your army smaller. Plague Marines are favoured because with T5 and FNP they hang around just that bit longer than other Space Marine units. Poison in melee is a nice touch too.

Khorne got coal for Christmas, although Kharn is a fairly nice beatstick. Delivery for assault units is a bit of a joke though.

With the Chaos codex you basically have two options. Fairly good units which are overpriced, or fairly poor units which are still overpriced.

There is no Draigowing anymore, so that doesn't matter.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Thanks for the input, guys.

I was flicking through my friend's codex and actually thought that units most chaos players do not bring to the table are also decent - the flying ML3 Daemon Prince in power armor looks like he can wreck face if you can keep him hopping from cover to cover, Maulerfiends look like fast flank movers that can get to enemy parking lots in good time to me, Triple ectoplasma cannon Forgefields look like they can mess up Crisis suits or Draigowing pretty bad, and the fact that you can take Legion troops as objective secured troops choices if you take the right chaos icon on your HQ is also nice. Massed AP3 bolter fire from Thousand sons along with a decent inv. save look nice. I was experimenting on some Noise Marines yesterday - they seem to be the perfect choice against armies like Nids or Orks, or Dark Eldar where you can expect to stay back and receive the attackers - 24 S4 AP5 ignores cover sonic blaster shots and a S8 AP3 blast with pinning - and then a S5 AP3 flamer from the blastmaster along with 5+ FNP on the entire unit is a great way to hold an objective against anything but terminators.

If Chaos only had access to drop pods...

With an attitude like this (ie. not looking for the mest units, just thinking 'oh, that's cool'), you should have no trouble with the Chaos codex, or any other for that matter. Chaos actually has a very nice ability to tailor troops to various roles and to varying degrees, which means you can specialise and customise on a squad-by-squad basis. Take, for example, the idea of a CC squad.

You can specialise:
CSM with extra CCW

You can Specialise and upgrade:
CSM with extra CCW and MoK

or you can take it to the limit:
Bezerkers

The same could be said with degrees of durability. You can take CSM in a blob, or that same blob with either Nurgle or Slaneesh for extra T or FNP, or you could take Plague Marines for great point-for-point durability.

There's a wealth of options if you're not obsessed with just taking the best!

I'll say only one thing: whatever some people on the Internet say I am having a lot of fun with my CSM army and prefer to play them at the moment even over my Eldar and Necron... power level does not mean fun.

CSM have decent options. The well-renowned spawns+maulerfiend rush. Oblit + dragon spam.

You can also forego spam and mix what good you've got. Spawns, lords, sorcs, las preds, oblits, cultists, bikers, cult troops...there are even ways to make regular marines good.
I've had a blast with an unorthodox build of 20 slaanesh marines with icon of excess, 2 meltas and bp+ccw + slaanesh lord on steed + Fabius Bile (suddenly). That was a blob-o-murder with 20 insane guyz that are fearless, have fnp, rock 3 s5 attacks on the charge at ini5 and have outflank + accute sences. In a game vs ig gunline they outflanked on turn 2, soaked up enough fire to let the rest of the forces close in and eliminated 2 tanks out of a squadron of leman russes with pasknisher. Than finished off the last tank and killed some randomguardsmen. Yep, noone survived till the end but their impact was enough to win me a game.

Another, more common and probably better option is to ally in Cypher. He works exceptionally good with a 20-strong blob.

But note, that it worked great for me cause i play orkses. And i'm used to a focused approach. Unlike spamming killy gunz, your mellee-oriented forces won't work on their own. You got to aim for a simultanious single turn strike. Fast mellee csm work atm - bikes, spawns, landraiders, outflanking guyz, maulerfiends, etc. Slow footslogging mellee csm don't work. Even though you still need strong ranged support, simply trying to outshoot the enemy will all the ranged stuff you got will most likely fail just cause the newer 6-th ed codexes are more shooty oriented.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
NO

I like this thread full of people giving good reasoning and advice for why someone should or shouldn't buy this codex and you just leave a capslocked two-letter reply without so much as a punctuation mark. Care to elaborate why people shouldn't buy this codex?

NO!

It was plain and boring when released and its only gotten worse as new codexes come out.

Buy chaos models but use the space marine codex.

I just wont to say that a choas army is currently winning the campaign in my local club!

It fails on a power level because you're going to be fighting uphill battles most of the time.
If fails on a fluff level because you can't represent the different traitor legions (with the exception of Death Guard) properly. And many of the new units don't really fit into the visual or thematic theme. (dino bots)
It fails on internal balance because some units are laughably bad (Mutilator) and some are auto-take. (Nurgle bikers, heldrake.)

Title is misleading.

There's two Chaos codexes.

Do what I did. Buy this one, buy the old 3.5 version. Then compare the two and cry.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Thanks for the input, guys.

I was flicking through my friend's codex and actually thought that units most chaos players do not bring to the table are also decent - the flying ML3 Daemon Prince in power armor looks like he can wreck face if you can keep him hopping from cover to cover, Maulerfiends look like fast flank movers that can get to enemy parking lots in good time to me, Triple ectoplasma cannon Forgefields look like they can mess up Crisis suits or Draigowing pretty bad, and the fact that you can take Legion troops as objective secured troops choices if you take the right chaos icon on your HQ is also nice. Massed AP3 bolter fire from Thousand sons along with a decent inv. save look nice. I was experimenting on some Noise Marines yesterday - they seem to be the perfect choice against armies like Nids or Orks, or Dark Eldar where you can expect to stay back and receive the attackers - 24 S4 AP5 ignores cover sonic blaster shots and a S8 AP3 blast with pinning - and then a S5 AP3 flamer from the blastmaster along with 5+ FNP on the entire unit is a great way to hold an objective against anything but terminators.

Yeah all those things are ok. They arent what people really complain about except tsons: Warp Talons, Mutilators, and Possessed get most of the hate.

The ML3 Daemon Prince is a monster; but he costs a ton, only gets 2 powers from any of the good trees, and is one Str10 hit/force weapon away from paste. The answer is to take Belakor or allied Daemons.

Maulerfiends are alright if you have HS slots. Cheap and fast they can charge at an enemy tank and are a massive threat immidiately, but that is only if your opponent has an expensive tank. Otherwise with a low number of attacks, WS3 and init3 and no shooting weapons they are considerably worse in combat than a regular dreadnaught. They are also ok against some expensive MCs.

Noise Marines are alright, but boy do they get expensive fast if you add all those upgrades. 20 regular marines puts out a similar amount of dakka as 10 noise marines. The Str8 AP3 blast does make certain marines tremble though and they are sometimes used as assault troops nearly naked.

The ectoplamsa forgefiends are alright. 3 plasma cannons, but only 24" range and rather expensive.

Tsons are where you are mistaken. Expensive, forced to take a more expenisve sorcerer that has crappy powers, weak in assault, and die like marines to dakka. AP3 bolters sound awesome, but usually marines will have cover if there are tsons on the field. They cannot DS, so they have to walk up. SNP means they cannot overwatch.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
There are some halfway decent options in the Chaos Codex, but they are also quite expensive.

Thousand Sons are good at shooting Space Marines, but they're no better against an Ork than a normal Chaos marine and cost 50% more. The invulnerable save is okay, but if you factor in cover for other units they still look overpriced.

Actually Thousand Sons as someone valued it are actually worse then basic CSM if one takes into account cover because point per point the basic CSM will still do effective damage at a better cost.

The only time TSons are better is if the MEQ are out without cover.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I'd go for it. It depends a bit on how you want to play; I'm gonna use the SM dex (with Raptor tactics and Lias Issodon) with IG allies and a Vindicare to better emulate Alpha Legion strategy.

If you want to play a themed undivided legion, it is probably best to go with C:SM rather than C:CSM

I know I do


It isnt even that much about power level, just CSM has too little variety without marking things and taking lots of daemonic things

 Exergy wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I'd go for it. It depends a bit on how you want to play; I'm gonna use the SM dex (with Raptor tactics and Lias Issodon) with IG allies and a Vindicare to better emulate Alpha Legion strategy.

If you want to play a themed undivided legion, it is probably best to go with C:SM rather than C:CSM

I know I do


It isnt even that much about power level, just CSM has too little variety without marking things and taking lots of daemonic things

This is sadly accurate. The SM codex is a better chaos dex than the CSM dex.

I play CSM, I also play Daemons & Orks

CSM can be fun but it's really fun with Daemon allies

I particularly like taking things everyone says don't work and making them work, it's much more fun than taking an internet list and following a formulaic game structure against someone else's internet list....

I do use nurgle bikers though because I love modelling nurgle stuff