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If you start CSM, then the codex will be a must-have.
And don't forget to buy the Daemon codex as well since you definitely want Daemon allies.

Too bad we can't play 40k over the internet. Threads like this one always tempt me to table someones "top tier" army with CSM

edit: This might have come out more arrogant than it was intended. It does not always work, but when it works in RL it is very satisfying to win against someone's super optimised WAAC list.

When they make a CSM dex that actually fits the fluff and isn't filled with near useless units, then get into Chaos.
Until then, try something else.

I think listing what your proprieties are as a gamer would help the conversation though. Maybe you don't care about fluff. Maybe you like to have a chance at winning?

I'm gonna wait. Chaos was one of the armies I played when I first started playing as a kid years ago. After a long break from the hobby I came back and I'm not pleased with the current codex. Nurgle is my least favorite out of the four. So I'm focusing on other armies and patiently waiting for a chaos codex that does each of the four correctly.

JuniorRS13 wrote:
I'm gonna wait. Chaos was one of the armies I played when I first started playing as a kid years ago. After a long break from the hobby I came back and I'm not pleased with the current codex. Nurgle is my least favorite out of the four. So I'm focusing on other armies and patiently waiting for a chaos codex that does each of the four correctly.

Same here. I have no desire to run a Nurgle list, but it seems the current CSM is "Go Nurgle or go home."
I wanted to run either a 1kSons list or World Eaters, but GW seems to hate both of those legions.

So what should be done to fix the Chaos codex? Make everything cheaper by 10%?

 Sir Arun wrote:
So what should be done to fix the Chaos codex? Make everything cheaper by 10%?

Nah that would fix some things, but not everything.

Wouldn't fix the flavor feel for the chaos armies, but might help a few things that are horribly overpriced.

Make 1ksons fit the fluff and worthwhile to take. Make Khorne scary again. Give them an assault vehicle and make chainaxes useful.
Give units like mutilators warptalons the tools they need to do their job. Give Land Raiders options that are chaosy and not the same as loyalists.
Give the dark apostle a reason to exist.
Make Tzeentch good at magic because...Tzeentch.
Make ways to make an undivided Legion like Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion feel like you're actually playing a Chaos legion instead of a generic warband.
etc etc

CSM need to get some thematic changes. There should be God-centered Chapter Tactics (Legion Tactics? whatever, this is not even a fully-formed idea yet).

Like, if your army is 51%+ of units all bearing the same Mark of X, then you get the Legion Trait of that Chaos God. So, like, let's say you have all 1KS, all with the MoT, they get the Tzeentch Legion Trait.... which is, I dunno, +1 Warp Charge per unit with a model with the MoT, +1 LD (because they know it's all according to plan), and, once per game, they get 1 free reroll of any test... or can force their opponent to take a re-roll on a test (call this Fateweaver's Boon or something).

Those with the Khorne Trait would get +3" Charge distance, attack in Assault at +1S, and attack at I, regardless of the effective I of their weapons. Possible downside is that melee to-hit rolls of 1 inflicts a hit against the model's own unit (Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows...).

... and so on and so forth. And this is just for adding the flavor of the Chaos Gods to the various builds, to mention nothing of reworking points and abilities of most of the units, as well as providing a list of equipment from C:SM and the various Loyalist Codices that CSM could have, conceivably, stolen/scavenged/kept since the Heresy.

Also, BB with the IG to represent their slave-armies, Traitor Guard, Blood Pact, etc.

I don't really get the "CSM are worse than C:SM" argument.

Classic 10 man CSM squad, all armed with bp + ccw, 2 meltaguns, aspiring champion with combi-melta + lightning claw and MoS aboard a Rhino with Dirge caster ...285 points.

Turn 1: move 12" toward enemy squad holding objective, pop smoke. Turn 2: move 6'', disembark 6" (you are now 24" from your starting point, so you should be pretty close to your target), fire 16 rapid-fire bolter shots or pop nearby 1 tank with relative efficiency thanks to 3 melta shots. Flat out with Rhino to shield guys from LoS of low AP weapons. Survive other enemy fire better than marines due to FNP.

Turn 3: move up, fire upto 7 S4 bolter shots, then charge with (and not receive overwatch due to dirge caster) upto 28 S4 attacks, 3 of which are AP3 and shred, all delivered at Initiative 5 so they strike before most MEQ guys, giving them the edge. And to kill them the enemy has to get past a 3+ armor save and if they fail that, also a failed 5+ FNP save.

Despite lacking ATSKNF, Chaos can easily trump regular marines 1 on 1. You pay more points, but your unit is also better, accordingly. I'm pretty sure my Initiate squads, thinking themselves to be some kind of melee special snowflakes, would get their backsides whooped by the traitors. What CSM lacks is some of the cheese like Grav Cents or Shield Eternal facewrecker CMs. But for that Hellturkey and Daemon Weapon toting melee guys make up for it I think. And you can always get lucky with those chaos rewards.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I don't really get the "CSM are worse than C:SM" argument.

Classic 10 man CSM squad, all armed with bp + ccw, 2 meltaguns, aspiring champion with combi-melta + lightning claw and MoS aboard a Rhino with Dirge caster

Turn 1: move 12" toward enemy squad holding objective, pop smoke. Turn 2: move 6'', disembark 6" (you are now 24" from your starting point, so you should be pretty close to your target), fire 16 rapid-fire bolter shots or pop nearby 1 tank with relative efficiency thanks to 3 melta shots. Flat out with Rhino to shield guys from LoS of low AP weapons. Survive other enemy fire better than marines due to FNP.

Turn 3: move up, fire upto 7 S4 bolter shots, then charge with (and not receive overwatch due to dirge caster) upto 28 S4 attacks, 3 of which are AP3 and shred, all delivered at Initiative 5 so they strike before most MEQ guys, giving them the edge. And to kill them the enemy has to get past a 3+ armor save and if they fail that, also a failed 5+ FNP save.

Lets see: That's 20 points per model for what amounts to glorified Tactical/Grey Hunter squads, not counting the Aspiring champion who has to challenge regardless of foe, that can still be run down or caused to flee in combat without ATSKNF.

but with striking first at I5, and then also having access to FNP, you'd have to make some terribad rolls to lose in cc to be swept

 Sir Arun wrote:
but with striking first at I5, and then also having access to FNP, you'd have to make some terribad rolls to lose in cc to be swept

Yes, but generally if your whole army is comprised of these your now lacking in costs to deal with other effective things, or simply as often is not, you'll often be left footslogging said MEQ up as your rhino's are blown up, picked off by more effective weapons as generally brought to bear.

Also why not just take Noise Marines, for one measly point more you get fearless for the same setup, and access to a Doom Siren at least.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
but with striking first at I5, and then also having access to FNP, you'd have to make some terribad rolls to lose in cc to be swept

Yes, but generally if your whole army is comprised of these your now lacking in costs to deal with other effective things, or simply as often is not, you'll often be left footslogging said MEQ up as your rhino's are blown up, picked off by more effective weapons as generally brought to bear.

Also why not just take Noise Marines, for one measly point more you get fearless for the same setup, and access to a Doom Siren at least.

Fair point, but I think the Rhinos getting blown up sydrome affects melee oriented loyalist chapters equally. I mean the whole "suck at close combat" applies to a lot of armies out there due to game mechanics since 6th, so I wouldnt say that is a flaw of the chaos codex in particular.


In that same line of thought I dont get all the hate for Mutilators - they seem to be a pretty straightforward unit. 2+/5++ just like terminators, but 1 extra wound. Can deep strike, just like assault terminators can, and while they cant be compared to TH/SS termies, they are more comparable to lightning claw terminators (who kinda do suck now - ask any SM player if he takes them lol) but with the added benefit of - for some odd 20 extra points per model - being able to switch to AP2 weapons on a whim, and on top of that having a nifty bonus via the chaos icons - mark of nurgle is probably more worth it than mark of tzeentch, as T6 is better (dont have the mathhammer to prove it) than upping your inv. from 5+ to 4+. But in any case you DS them near a key shooty unit, and then charge.

Excepting that 1/4 of the CSM forces are intended to be close-combat oriented. No one runs Khornate Berzerkers, an iconic unit for CSM, to be in a bolter gunline.

Because they don't do enough damage to really justify their cost above chaos terminators, they aren't really worth putting in a land raider because even if they hit melee they can't kill enough per turn to either do enough damage to break a unit, or otherwise.

And DSing them just gets them killed without them doing any damage.

The unit either badly needs a price drop or more attacks (Similar to assault centurions)

 Sir Arun wrote:
I don't really get the "CSM are worse than C:SM" argument.

They're not. With their low starting price, marine statline/equipment and dizzying array of options, regular CSM are one of the best troops choices in the game.

Sir Arun wrote:If Chaos only had access to drop pods...

Yeah, no kidding.

Sir Arun wrote:I was flicking through my friend's codex and actually thought that units most chaos players do not bring to the table are also decent - the flying ML3 Daemon Prince in power armor looks like he can wreck face if you can keep him hopping from cover to cover, Maulerfiends look like fast flank movers that can get to enemy parking lots in good time to me, Triple ectoplasma cannon Forgefields look like they can mess up Crisis suits or Draigowing pretty bad, and the fact that you can take Legion troops as objective secured troops choices if you take the right chaos icon on your HQ is also nice. Massed AP3 bolter fire from Thousand sons along with a decent inv. save look nice. I was experimenting on some Noise Marines yesterday - they seem to be the perfect choice against armies like Nids or Orks, or Dark Eldar where you can expect to stay back and receive the attackers - 24 S4 AP5 ignores cover sonic blaster shots and a S8 AP3 blast with pinning - and then a S5 AP3 flamer from the blastmaster along with 5+ FNP on the entire unit is a great way to hold an objective against anything but terminators.

Chaos is neat that way, and one of the reasons I like them. They get just so much stuff so play with, and SO many different combinations of things with a lot of coustomizability.

The only tricky part with CSM is that when you do start adding those options on, they can start getting rather expensive (pointswise), and in several cases, they have a bunch of upgrades that are mandatory (cf. thousand sons and possessed, for example). If you can't figure out how to use all those abilities, then you're just bringing expensive space marines. As such, the CSM codex in general will always look bad for people who are looking for easy and straightforward.

If this isn't an obstacle for you, though, then yeah, there's a lot of neat stuff. 1ksons are definitely worth the cost of a half a squad of guardsmen apiece when used correctly, and you get to have all the coolness of ++ marines shredding through basically everything they point at.

I think they're better than assault centurions who lack an inv. save of any kind, dont have FNP, can't boost their toughness to prevent getting insta-killed by demolisher pie plates, and most importantly of all cannot deep strike at all and are wholly transport dependent.

 Ailaros wrote:
snip

Yeah. I believe if we put the Nurgle net lists aside, CSM can still be a very effective army when played by a guy who knows his stuff on the battlefield - the key to dominating with CSM is figuring out what options are worth taking and how to use them in which battlefield situation. I can understand why most tourney lists use Nurgle because it's best to boost your defence when you dont know what you're up against. But if you know your enemy, I think the other gods disciplines can be equally effective. There are many codexes out there that are more about what units to take (and just use point and shoot strategy on the battlefield) and which to leave home. CSM is more about what options to give your guys and how to play them to maximum potential on the battlefield. I believe the only other armies that require such a tactical thinking to maximize potential and avoid defeat are Eldar and Dark Eldar.

A squad of mutilators with MoK can put down a MC in a single charge and do likewise with a squad of guardsmen, and almost a full-strength tac squad. Things just evaporate against them in close combat, and those who don't have to put up with 2+/5++ W2, which has the option of losing a few attacks to make that T5 or 4++.

Mutilators are just fine. Literally the only problem is getting them to where they need to be.

Sir Arun wrote:the key to dominating with CSM is figuring out what options are worth taking and how to use them in which battlefield situation.

Emphasis on the latter.

I still find it strange that people can look at a huge pile of upgrades and come to the conclusion that they're worthless. They're only worthless if you don't use them.

Probably the biggest example of this is possessed. They're like normal marines, except they gain Champion of Chaos, Fear, Fearless, Fleet, 5++, Vessel of Chaos, +1A, and have easy access to 4++, +2A, T5, I5, rerolling charge range, FNP, and Hatred. But no, clearly they're useless. What a terrible unit that dies just as fast as a normal marine for such a huge price hike. More expensive and are literally no better...

If you have that kind of attitude, then CSM definitely isn't for you. You have to play to their strengths rather than dwelling on weakness mitigation.

Sir Arun wrote: I can understand why most tourney lists use Nurgle because it's best to boost your defence when you dont know what you're up against.

Powergamers play nurgle because it's easy. You don't have to do anything to make use of +1T, it's just always "on" as a passive ability, and given that it works basically any time the unit takes damage, you're guaranteed to get use out of it.

Khorne's +A, however, only gets used when you're in close combat, which means you have to actually get into close combat, which takes more skill and effort. People who can't get into assault can't get the use out of MoK. Those who can, do.

You know I play very successfully with CSM and run anything BUT Nurgle because I can not stand Nurgle. It is pretty easy to run almost anything in the codex in a way that will make it useful, all units do something and do it well while still being generalist. There is nothing scarier than barreling down the field in a Land Raider filled with Mutilators, a Lord of Khorne with the Axe of Blind Fury, and Abadon all coming out to play....Then you look at the price tag and go, ohh yeah that is a horrible idea. That is pretty much how I feel about the codex in general. I look at Warptalons and think they would be great if they weren't so overcosted.

CSM has a LOT of really decent melee potential, to bad melee is truly awful this and the past two editions. A codex in the last three editions lived and died on its ability to field as many big guns as they could to blow the enemy off the table in as short order as possible, this is where CSM fail. They lack the volume of high strength low AP that so many of the top tier armies can field, they lack the oppressive weight of fire of things like Wave Serpents, they lack the cheestastic trick like Screamstar or Seerstar.

CSM are a decent army, probably middle of the line, what they do lack is the tools to play the the strengths of 5th, 6th, and 7th edition.

It also doesn't help that it feels like the codex is very half assed...There is no passion to this codex, no interesting and unique abilities. It is a truly bad codex but in power level it can swing its weight around pretty efficiently.

It is still WAY better than the Tyranid codex, even if the Tyranid codex can put out some nastier list, overall the CSM codex is better written, even if it is still piss poor.

So to the OP...CSM can be a lot of fun, you can play them with success depending on how competitive your opponents. They are not tourney friendly. They have a lot of bad units. You will be disappointed time and time again with many of them. But you can still have fun with your broken toy.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
It also doesn't help that it feels like the codex is very half assed...There is no passion to this codex, no interesting and unique abilities. It is a truly bad codex but in power level it can swing its weight around pretty efficiently.

Care to elaborate? If you look at the new Grey Knights codex you'll find the CSM codex to be a real treasure trove. While the codex may be a far cry from its 3.5e glorious predecessor, I think it's still a lot more interesting than the previous one. You have huge freedoms within the codex to create your own fluffy list since so many characters unlock so many units as troops and there's so much possibilities for upgrading.

I really don't see how one could make the Chaos codex more interesting except giving legion tactics, making things cheaper across the board (which in turn will continue the trend for other codexes, bringing us back to square one), and giving melee units frag grenades (GW doesnt do that to most dedicated melee units across all armies anyways)

The GK have always been a very one-trick pony. They kill daemons and (by extension) psykers. It's what they do, it's what they're designed for, and it is the sole purpose for the Chapter existing. Mostly by teleporting in right next to them and then blowing them away with ammunition specifically designed to blow away daemons and psykers.

Now, previous editions of the game made the GK a top-tier army simply because they way the GK rules worked made them super-effective against a bunch of non-Daemon armies. That's not quite as true in 7th as it was (though GK are still pretty damn good), and was mostly done by simply removing things from the GK codex... because GW apparently cannot figure out how to tag a bit of wargear to work one way against certain units and another way against others.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I don't really get the "CSM are worse than C:SM" argument.

Classic 10 man CSM squad, all armed with bp + ccw, 2 meltaguns, aspiring champion with combi-melta + lightning claw and MoS aboard a Rhino with Dirge caster ...285 points.

Turn 1: move 12" toward enemy squad holding objective, pop smoke. Turn 2: move 6'', disembark 6" (you are now 24" from your starting point, so you should be pretty close to your target), fire 16 rapid-fire bolter shots or pop nearby 1 tank with relative efficiency thanks to 3 melta shots. Flat out with Rhino to shield guys from LoS of low AP weapons. Survive other enemy fire better than marines due to FNP.

Turn 3: move up, fire upto 7 S4 bolter shots, then charge with (and not receive overwatch due to dirge caster) upto 28 S4 attacks, 3 of which are AP3 and shred, all delivered at Initiative 5 so they strike before most MEQ guys, giving them the edge. And to kill them the enemy has to get past a 3+ armor save and if they fail that, also a failed 5+ FNP save.

Despite lacking ATSKNF, Chaos can easily trump regular marines 1 on 1. You pay more points, but your unit is also better, accordingly. I'm pretty sure my Initiate squads, thinking themselves to be some kind of melee special snowflakes, would get their backsides whooped by the traitors. What CSM lacks is some of the cheese like Grav Cents or Shield Eternal facewrecker CMs. But for that Hellturkey and Daemon Weapon toting melee guys make up for it I think. And you can always get lucky with those chaos rewards.

This sounds great, except that 40k isn't played in a vacuum. Most of the time, your Rhino is going to get pasted on the first turn by a Wave Serpent, or it's going to get shot up by Missile Sides and the whole squad wiped in one shot by a Riptide. Or, the Rhino is going to get wrecked by one squad of Grav Bikers while another squad cripples the unit.

The difference is that in C:SM you only paid ~200 points for that Tactical Squad vs. paying almost 300 for it in CSM.


There's a ton of S6-7 shooting out there to kill Rhinos and a ton of AP2 shooting to kill Marines. Conversely, CSM brings very little of that to the table. They're OK in melee, but the things that excel in melee are far better and none of their options are very versatile. For example, Spawn are the shiznit but useless against Land Raiders. At best you've got a Lord in there swinging a S8 or 9 Powerfist and now you're looking at a unit that costs almost 400 points.

CSM used to kill MEQ very well, busting the Grav Biker meta fairly well with the Heldrake. Unfortunately they cut the Heldrake's nuts right off so it doesn't do that nearly as well anymore. The only thing we have is rush units really: Spawn and Bikers all with MoN, Plague Marines (again, Nurgle), unmarked Sorcerers and Belakor for handing out Invisibility (to the rush units of course) and Maulerfiends. Outside of rush lists, CSM really struggles.


Long story short: In 5th edition I played a mixed army - I had Slaanesh in there, I had Nurgle in there, and I had Khorne in there. Berzerkers worked because you could assault out of Rhinos as long as you didn't move the previous turn. Plague Marines were awesome. Lash of Submission synergized very well with both Obliterators and Berzerkers (pulling units in closer so you could assault them. Brutal!).

The whole thing actually worked surprisingly well. Even though we have more units now, I feel like the army doesn't play nearly as dynamically.

.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:CSM used to kill MEQ very well, busting the Grav Biker meta fairly well with the Heldrake. Unfortunately they cut the Heldrake's nuts right off so it doesn't do that nearly as well anymore.

lol. The only thing they did to the helldrake was make it so that you had to point the helldrake at what you were shooting at. They went from nonsense rules to following the rules that literally every other vehicle follows. A tiny, necessary correction that doesn't change anything else is not "chopping its nuts off".

And practically the entire codex is devoted to killing MEq, something which it still does very well, and something that it never needed the helldrake for in the first place.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:CSM used to kill MEQ very well, busting the Grav Biker meta fairly well with the Heldrake. Unfortunately they cut the Heldrake's nuts right off so it doesn't do that nearly as well anymore.

lol. The only thing they did to the helldrake was make it so that you had to point the helldrake at what you were shooting at. They went from nonsense rules to following the rules that literally every other vehicle follows. A tiny, necessary correction that doesn't change anything else is not "chopping its nuts off".

And practically the entire codex is devoted to killing MEq, something which it still does very well, and something that it never needed the helldrake for in the first place.

It fundamentally changed the way that the unit worked. You used to be able to Vector Strike a unit and flame it in the same turn. That's what made the Heldrake so good. You may say that it's "nonsense" but that's your opinion, whereas it is fact that it is significantly less effective now that they've completely changed its rules. In addition to the Baleflamer they also nerfed Vector Strike. End of the day, they took the most competitive unit in the CSM codex and made it subpar.

I'm not saying CSM *can't* kill MEQs, just that they can't kill MEQs nearly as well as they did before with the Baledrake.

... what monstrous creatures are a lone mutilator killing on the charge?

RE: Heldrakes

The only fact is that the baleflamer working as it did for most of 6th edition didn't match the unit's design. Making it a turret weapon was obviously a feth up in the FAQ.

I feel like it's an okay codex but for the most bang for your buck, I recommend getting the Crimson Slaughter Supplement (and maybe Be'lakor's dataslate while you're at it).

Hey man, I'm on the fence too about Chaos, I have a load of stuff to paint and get ready buy I still like Nurgle so I may just get the Codex and the Demon Codex. I say if you like it grab it! You'll figure out a decent list I'm sure.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
... what monstrous creatures are a lone mutilator killing on the charge?

RE: Heldrakes

The only fact is that the baleflamer working as it did for most of 6th edition didn't match the unit's design. Making it a turret weapon was obviously a feth up in the FAQ.

What do you mean a feth up? It was explicitly and intentionally designated a Turret weapon in the FAQ. Disagree with the ruling all you want, but the ruling was far from ambiguous, and the subsequent ruling in the 7th edition FAQ was a complete reversal of the previous ruling that significantly reduced the unit's effectiveness. I'm not talking about fluff - obviously the thing farting fire was stupid from the get-go.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 King Pariah wrote:
I feel like it's an okay codex but for the most bang for your buck, I recommend getting the Crimson Slaughter Supplement (and maybe Be'lakor's dataslate while you're at it).

Miniwargaming has a video where a guy was using Crimson Slaughter Possessed. They seemed pretty cool FWIW....the ability to change Unit Type to Beasts is pretty awesome.