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Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm not really afraid of the Tau allied with Eldar, everything the Tau do Eldar can do better and be psychic to boot.

And demons from sacntioned psykers are rare, it only seems like they are common because theres a book or game on every incident. There is a lot about Imperial psykers you don't know.

Yes, we know. Most of them get eaten by your corpse god... and in this case, most really means most, since the fluff goes out of the way to describe just how few manage to get sanctioned, and that tens of thousands of psykers get eaten by the false emperor every day.


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Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm not really afraid of the Tau allied with Eldar, everything the Tau do Eldar can do better and be psychic to boot.

Tau, compared to Eldar, are good at making babies. They're not dying off. There will always be more Tau Fire Warriors ready to pick up a pulse rifle and mow down Guardsmen.

They're also good at talking their enemies out of fighting or switching sides. A lot of worlds in the expansion across the Damocles Gulf simply joined the Greater Good, rather than fighting off an invasion.

That's something the Imperium should be scared of. If rogue traders start bringing word back to the Imperium that life is a lot easier on the Tau side of the line, human worlds may find themselves being overthrown from the bottom down.

Life sucks in the Imperium for the overwhelming majority of people.


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 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Not true, not true in the slightest. The tau specificaly hide the Nisacar from the Imperium, because they know that they are psykers.

You'll find this mentioned in the Battlefleet Gothic rules. Grey Templar seems to be making stuff up as he goes along.


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 PhillyT wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

What even slightly suggests the Tau can't make things like Meta bombs? Not having them doesn't mean anything, tere's a difference between not knowing how to make them and just not wanting to use them. Giving Firewarriors Melta bombs would then change their role, they aren't meant to be taking on vehicles that would require something like that.

And that is what I am getting at. If the Ad Mech don't have EMP grenades, it is because they are too stupid. If the Tau don't have melta weapons, it is because they chose to not use them.

Perfect Tau Fanboy argument right there.

The Tau have melta weapons. In fact, our fusion gun is pointedly better than what the imperium uses- 18" range vs 12".

... why would you make a bomb when you have a melta gun with a longer range? At the maximum of throwing range (7-8") an Imperial melta gun doesn't get its full benefit, so it's nice to have something you can throw at that range. Since a Tau fusion gun can reach out past that point, why make a bomb?


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BrianDavion wrote:
If the Tau started having large numbers of osykers under their control they'd likely run into the same problems the IoM has with them. possiably even worse. resentment about another race ruling them is a pretty easy hook for chaos to act through honestly. The Tau honestly strike me as kinda naive as races go. they'd likely if they got big eneugh have their own version of the Horus Heresy. and I suspect it'd go just as bad for them

1) We actually don't have any idea what the Ethereals know.

2) The reason there can't be a Tau HH is because everyone in the high end of the command chain (and by everyone there, I of course mean the Tau race) can't be corrupted by Chaos. They have no psychic link.

One thing to consider, though, is that the Tau have no corpse that needs to consume psykers to "stay alive." The Tau will be able to make use of a much larger percentage of what they do find, compared to the Imperium.

You really don't need a psychic link to be corrupted by chaos...

Imperials have man portable 24" melta weapons Emp. Actually, they have 36' large blast template meltas too.

And tau seem incapable of producing melta bombs... if you buy the argument that a lack of an item means the race in question can't produce the item.
Throughout these discussions you consistently make the claim that a lack of said item from the imperium means they have no understanding or ability to produce that item while arguing the Tau not having an item is somehow by choice.

 PhillyT wrote:
Imperials have man portable 24" melta weapons Emp. Actually, they have 36' large blast template meltas too.

And tau seem incapable of producing melta bombs... if you buy the argument that a lack of an item means the race in question can't produce the item.
Throughout these discussions you consistently make the claim that a lack of said item from the imperium means they have no understanding or ability to produce that item while arguing the Tau not having an item is somehow by choice.

They have produced melta-bombs, just only giant ones.
Yo quote myself:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Actully, tau do have melta-bombs, it's just that they don't make grenade sized melta-bombs.

Honestly, I'm sure the the admech knows how EMP works (or at least those higher up the chain), but may not have a design. I'm sure that there was a human one some time in the past, but it probebly was:
a. Only used very rarely, and thus the design was lost..
b. Was to expensive and therefore rare, and thus the the design was lost.
or c. It was just plain lost.

That isn't a man portable melta bomb though. Similarly, the Imperium can make huge EMP bombs, we know that. But they don't.

My point is, it isn't an accurate argument to claim that because a group doesn't have an item they can't make it or don't understand it, especially when it is obvious they can do the things that item can do in other ways.

The Imperium could make EMP grenades if they wanted, but why do that when they have meltabombs.

The Tau could make a melta bomb if they wanted to, but why would they when they prefer EMP?

The things with the imperium is that they can make almost anything, but it's heresy to do so.

Someone likes Tau, Norton.

Norton your knowledge of the 40k universe is abyssmal. Even some of you Tau knowledge is wrong.

Either learn what you talking about or leave the discussion.

 PhillyT wrote:
That isn't a man portable melta bomb though. Similarly, the Imperium can make huge EMP bombs, we know that. But they don't.

My point is, it isn't an accurate argument to claim that because a group doesn't have an item they can't make it or don't understand it, especially when it is obvious they can do the things that item can do in other ways.

The Imperium could make EMP grenades if they wanted, but why do that when they have meltabombs.

The Tau could make a melta bomb if they wanted to, but why would they when they prefer EMP?

Meltabombs have a different purpose to EMP grenades, that's why. The Imperium clearly want EMP grenades and have made their own designs based on alien technology in the past, but for some reason they don't have their own EMP grenades. It's not just the lack of them that suggests the Imperium doesn't know how to make them, it's the lack of having their own despite wanting them and instead making use of captured versions. Nothing suggests the Tau want melta-bombs so not having them doesn't suggest they don't know how to make their own, while the Imperium wants EMP grenades yet uses alien versions instead of making their own. It does not definitely mean they can't make their own but there aren't really any reasons for them not to if they could.

Who wants EMP? Where has that been stated? A Xeno Inquisitor allowing Deathwatch under his command to use them in the FF RPG shouldn't be construed as a lack of ability to produce.

And there isn't really much of a difference, nor is it typical Imperial doctrine to even use them. The Imperium annihilates its enemy, for better or for worse, and the end goal of a melta bomb and an EMP grenade is to remove a target.

You do not need to understand the concept behind something to make it. You don't need to understand atomic theory or have even heard of the Periodic Table to have metallurgy.

Not understanding the concepts is part of the whole theme of the Imperium, including the AdMech.

It does not definitely mean they can't make their own but there aren't really any reasons for them not to if they could.

Because they are incredibly destructive to computers and computerized systems is why. The AdMech cannot afford to lose cogitators, especially ancient ones in recently-rediscovered worlds. Those cogitators may contain previously-lost human knowledge, and they cannot risk some yarbo Guardsman or Space Marine hucking an EMP grenade at it because there might be a couple cyber-Xenos behind it.

Alcibiades wrote:
You do not need to understand the concept behind something to make it.

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Don't get me wrong. I wish it was, then I'd have my ACS suit by now.

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Surely you've heard of a "dirty bomb" yes? Tactical nuclear devices can, basically, be made in your garage. You don't need to be a nuclear physicist to construct it.

 carldooley wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
You do not need to understand the concept behind something to make it.

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Don't get me wrong. I wish it was, then I'd have my ACS suit by now.

But it is true. People were making alloys and compounds for thousands of years before anybody ever heard of an atomic bond, and making astronomical predictions long before Galileo.

Alcibiades wrote:
and making astronomical predictions long before Galileo.

and it should be noted that Galileo was wrong.
gah, sorry Alcibiades. (and what is the world coming to when people apologize on forums?)
not about his theory. That was ultimately proven correct, but his argument as to why it was true was incorrect.

 Psienesis wrote:

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Surely you've heard of a "dirty bomb" yes? Tactical nuclear devices can, basically, be made in your garage. You don't need to be a nuclear physicist to construct it.

Well that isn't really a tactical nuke. If I recall, there is no nuclear reaction at all in a dirty bomb. Instead it spreads radioactive material using a conventional explosion. It is basically a terrorist weapon, not really a tactical nuke. The radiation sickens and kills far too slowly!

That's basically the point of a dirty bomb, yes. Then again, the cancer rates in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still far above the norm for Japan, so even the real deals still have that effect.

However, the issue the US has had in recent years with "yellow cake" and "enriched uranium" in the Middle East is because they fear these countries having the ability to construct a nuclear device. It's not as difficult as it seems, as even bin Laden had access to the internet from a cave.

http://www.unmuseum.org/buildabomb.htm

Oh for sure, but I always assumed tactical nukes are still nuclear explosions in nature, producing forces far above even the largest conventional bombs, but well below the larger planet ending MIRVs. Sort of cool and horrifying at the same time!

Yes and, with the proper materials (available on the various black arms markets), the link I provided there provides you with a "how to". The Google search required to find said link took all of 5 seconds.

A suitcase nuke doesn't require a nuclear physicist. Just the materials and the ability to follow basic instructions.

 Psienesis wrote:
A suitcase nuke doesn't require a nuclear physicist. Just the materials and the ability to follow basic instructions.

Aye. Quite a lot of technology is like that these days. For example, the guy that really understands how a small nuke works. He doesn't need to know (and maybe doesn't) how the material for the shell is mined and processed, or where you get the lithium for the detonator. His nuke will work just fine without him knowing.

And to be fair, even the guys making the really cutting-edge stuff probably don't know how to make some of the tools and equipment they use for their special project. We're simply too far specialized already for any single man to understand or be able to create everything from scratch. We can still put together complicated devices from parts and materials provided by experts in other fields.

I have a question related to the thread. Can a Imperial Guardswoman capture a Xenos gun like a Pulse Rifle or will the nice Commissar have a word with her about how the Emperor frowns on such practices? I believe Armageddon Ork hunters make use of shootas but I'm not sure if that practice is widely tolerated.

It depends on the commissar. Some will be more lenient, others will kill imedetly.