Keeping melee away from my squishy Guard bodies

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**Gamerely**

Yesterday had a battle with my friend's Space Wolves and I absolutely got my face sheared off by him. http://i.imgur.com/CRSWjBa.png for reference, everything to the left was what I was able to kill. Everything else was mine. And that's been the case for every battle I take part in, as soon as things get into close combat the game is essentially over for me, they're able to to take out my Leman's in one round of melee, his 2 termies and 5 space wolves tore through my 32 man conscript blob in one turn. It's getting really frustrating that no matter what I do, it just gets wiped off the board so easily because guardsmen are WORTHLESS. Feels like no matter what I put down, I get easily hard countered and the games is over for me once their weapons touch my soft human flesh.

**carldooley**

talk to your opponent. try playing smaller games, maelstrom, etc. Do you have a Commissar Lord to shepherd your conscripts? what does your list look like? also, rather than using them as conscripts, consider running platoons, not combined, and far enough apart that they can not be multi-assaulted.

**Gamerely**

carldooley wrote:
talk to your opponent. try playing smaller games, maelstrom, etc. Do you have a Commissar Lord to shepherd your conscripts? what does your list look like? also, rather than using them as conscripts, consider running platoons, not combined, and far enough apart that they can not be multi-assaulted.

My list was:

Creed with lascannon crew, master of ordnance
Primaris Psyker
31 conscripts with Commissar
Infantry platoon, both with lascannons blobbed with Creed
Platoon commander with 2 meltas
Pask Punisher with Demolisher Leman Russ
Tech priest
Valkyrie
Tempestus Scions, 2 meltas
Veterans with 3 meltas and demo.
Hydra

He dropped a drop pod because of alpha strike on first turn right in front of my 2 lemans with a venerable dread in it. Couldn't destroy it with my Lemans/platoon command squad. His flyer came in and jacked up my Pask, the venerable dread wiped both of my Lemans out right after that. The only thing I really did was kill 3 termies with the lascannons.... and that was it. 93 shots from the conscripts failed to do a single wound.

**carldooley**

what warlord traits do you hope for when you are rolling with creed? have you considered using pask with an executioner? Platoons with a meltagun in each, with the Lascannons making up a HWT. Consider Codex: Inquisition - you gain access to not only Coteaz, but also the old Chimeras, with the 5 fire points, as well as access to DT\OS for your Valkyrie.

**blue_crystal**

Guard are a pure shooty army and just can't handle dedicated assault units in close combat. They excel at fielding special and heavy weapons on cheap bodies and at fielding heavy vehicles.

If you want to match people in assault you will need to ally in assault units from another faction.

Some tips:
-Creed is very expensive for low point games, I wouldn't field him under 2000pts
-Tempestus scions are much better in an anti-heavy infantry role, since the changes to melta guns make them unreliable at best for killing tanks. I generally field them with plasma guns and with the scion supplement to gain their special orders, which can be fun (but require more points invested in them)
-Valkyrie are alright, but I'd consider using the vendetta for its anti-air capability
-Your vets should have plasma guns if you're fielding them with demo charges
-hydras are, unfortunately, not very effective anti-air units
-you may have too many points invested in heavy armor, leaving your tanks vulnerable to alpha strikes. That said, you tanks should easily handle terminators if you can keep them safe. Consider leaving them in reserve if your opponent drop pod assaults.
-lascannon heavy weapon teams are great with tank hunter orders, but you need to field 2-3 to avoid having them killed off early (otherwise, putting lascannons in your squads like you've done is a good idea)

**Gamerely**

blue_crystal wrote:
Guard are a pure shooty army and just can't handle dedicated assault units in close combat. They excel at fielding special and heavy weapons on cheap bodies and at fielding heavy vehicles.

If you want to match people in assault you will need to ally in assault units from another faction.

Some tips:
-Creed is very expensive for low point games, I wouldn't field him under 2000pts
-Tempestus scions are much better in an anti-heavy infantry role, since the changes to melta guns make them unreliable at best for killing tanks. I generally field them with plasma guns and with the scion supplement to gain their special orders, which can be fun (but require more points invested in them)
-Valkyrie are alright, but I'd consider using the vendetta for its anti-air capability
-Your vets should have plasma guns if you're fielding them with demo charges
-hydras are, unfortunately, not very effective anti-air units
-you may have too many points invested in heavy armor, leaving your tanks vulnerable to alpha strikes. That said, you tanks should easily handle terminators if you can keep them safe. Consider leaving them in reserve if your opponent drop pod assaults.
-lascannon heavy weapon teams are great with tank hunter orders, but you need to field 2-3 to avoid having them killed off early (otherwise, putting lascannons in your squads like you've done is a good idea)

Thanks for the notes, yeah Creed wasn't as effective as I'd hoped he'd be. Do you mind explaining a little for the switch from melta to plasma? I was just giving them all meltas since they were a little cheaper, and didn't have the chance to explode in your hands. And since I had Pask to fill in for the anti-infantry role. I didn't think there was that much of a difference between melta and plasma other than range mostly. This is the stuff I need help on, making things fit into roles better, I keep getting my face handed to me because I simply don't know the hard counter game yet. All I know is that lasguns aren't very good.

**nedTCM**

blue_crystal wrote:
Guard are a pure shooty army and just can't handle dedicated assault units in close combat. They excel at fielding special and heavy weapons on cheap bodies and at fielding heavy vehicles.

If you want to match people in assault you will need to ally in assault units from another faction.

Some tips:
-Creed is very expensive for low point games, I wouldn't field him under 2000pts
-Tempestus scions are much better in an anti-heavy infantry role, since the changes to melta guns make them unreliable at best for killing tanks. I generally field them with plasma guns and with the scion supplement to gain their special orders, which can be fun (but require more points invested in them)
-Valkyrie are alright, but I'd consider using the vendetta for its anti-air capability
-Your vets should have plasma guns if you're fielding them with demo charges
-hydras are, unfortunately, not very effective anti-air units
-you may have too many points invested in heavy armor, leaving your tanks vulnerable to alpha strikes. That said, you tanks should easily handle terminators if you can keep them safe. Consider leaving them in reserve if your opponent drop pod assaults.
-lascannon heavy weapon teams are great with tank hunter orders, but you need to field 2-3 to avoid having them killed off early (otherwise, putting lascannons in your squads like you've done is a good idea)

BC here makes some great points. (Minus the plasma demo comment, which I disagree with) I would go far to say that meltas with a walking unit is generally a bad idea. I will also add that Creed is not very good in most lists. He is just an okay character now in my opinion. Punisher Pask is find, but pick a cheaper tank. An executioner of vanquisher are good since they both sync well with Punisher weapon profile, are cheaper, and can get more benefit out of Preferred Enemy. A demolisher is better by itself. The reserve comment is a great suggestion. Suicide meltas Stormtroopers are okay, but the change to their deep strike accuracy is the real problem. Stormtroopers are kind of too expensive as it. I prefer Veterans with Plasma and carapace instead and Stormtroopers with Volley Guns. Hydras suck drop them use the other points to go Vendetta. In general, priests as better than commissars.

For Psykers, you kind of have to go big or go home. A single psyker will not bring much to the table since you won't get as much powers and dice to utilize as well as dispel if he brings a lot of his own. The most common use for a psyker is to twin-link something with prescience. Because of the unreliablility of powers, the points you spend on the psyker might be better spent just buying a second unit of the type you are trying to twin-link.

Looking at what you wrote, I wonder if the problem is with how you are playing in general verses anything else. And in addition how much is your list might not set up to fight his specific list. Do you do well against other armies? What is your buddy bringing? A DP space wolves army is tough to beat with anything army never mind one like guard that relies on long range firepower.

That said, Guardsmen are AWESOME! Lasguns will actually kill tons of units if you bring enough and their bodies can make them last forever. Especially if you have an ADL, which is still useful against the DP armies it protects against their shooting and makes their charge distance longer. Against a CC heavy army, don't blob or at least don't blob everyone. The more small units you have forces your enemy to make multiple charges to take you out. A good trick is to keep a bait squad in the front or new by and then when he gets in range, use that squad to surround his dangerous CC unit and then shot at them. Next turn he charges them and they get an over watch and then die. You turn starts and you get another volley at them. Your numbers should add some desposibillity to your forces and you should not be afraid to let them die. If he dropped a Dreadnought into your face, you should have charged them with your conscripts. It doesn't matter if they can't hurt it, the Commissar would sit back twirling his mustache all game while it basically tried his best to grind through conscripts 2 at a time.

Gives us some more info. It okay to lose as well, but if you are hitting a wall try to post everything that happened. What was his army, what upgrades did you pick, how did you both deploy? This will help us give you better advice verse just general stuff.

**PhillyT**

Hold on, I hate be the spoil sport on this thread, but Imperial Guard are one of the nastiest, most tricky CC armies in the game right now.

Blob squads of guard, with a special (normally a plasma gun) lumped into a group of 30 - 50, with a priest and 3 - 5 power axes on the sergeants, will kill almost anything in the game that isn't a deathstar. Between the shooting and the overwatch, the mass of CC attacks, and the 9 - 15 S4 AP2 attacks most units won't be able to grind through by the end of the game with the fearlessness.

Priest are required in AM at this point. So cheap and so effective, they are worth every penny.

So drop a priest into Creed's blob and cut a few axes in. You won't need to worry about Space Wolves.

**thegreatchimp**

When you say you're getting slaughtered every time, am I right in assuming you're referring to just games against this same space wolf player? Bear in mind that the game is not 100% blanced. Any one army will be very good against certain enemy armies and poor against others. Certain races are even at a disadvantage against certain other races. To sum it up, there may not be anything terrible wrong about either your army or how you play it. Try playing against other armies and I'm pretty sure your guard will perform better.

**zoat**

As others have said there are a lot of things you can do to improve your list. My first suggestions would be to ditch Creed, the tech priest and the Hydra and use Pask as your warlord.

If you feel you are often out of the game by turn 2 you probably need to pay some attention to deployment. Facing Space Wolves with Guard can feel rather one sided mostly because they will have the initiative early on, especially if they are using pods and/or fast units. All you can do really is to react and play for time. Try to delay assault for as long as possible! There will be no charges turn one unless you make a mistake. Aim to protect your important units from assaults until turn 3-4. Meanwhile make sure your target priority is good!

I'm sure you figured this out already, but use your cheap stuff as protection for your better units. Conscripts with a priest/commisar could for example be placed so that no one in a pod can use melta on your tanks aka (bubblewrap). Turn 2 they soak up an assault. Sometimes assaulting yourself is better. They are fearless after all and if you can move the assault 6-12" upfield this can sometimes buy your important units close to a turn.

Looking at your list most of your guns are short ranged (melta, punisher, etc). Especially meltas do present an extra challenge as firing them requires getting within 12", which means you will be in assault range. Plasma guns give you just enough extra range to fire while keeping out of assault. Also remember you can back up 6" before firing. Consider lascannons and plasma sponsons for the tanks, in particular if you are facing a lot of terminators. Gives you a fair bit of extra long range AP2 punch for a decent price.

I also note that you have no real CC threat. Playing guard you will never have strong CC units, but having one or two units that can at least hold some tactical marines might be a good idea as it will force your opponent to think instead of just rushing at you. Adding a priest, an inquisitor (rad grenades, divination) and a few sgts with power axes to a big (30+) guard blob actually makes it scary to a lot of units. Well that's like a hundred points of CC gear, so it should! The guardsmen still dies in droves, but such a unit can eat a single unit of terminators or grey hunters for example, and that changes the game somewhat.

Another good "deterrent" is a chimera full of plasma guns. Makes terminators think twice.

**PhillyT**

Am I the only one who has seen and used cc blob squads? They have been a thing since 5th. The only thing beating them are massed cc units like 30 man ork and 20 man chaos khorne squads. Everything else will be crushed or never leave combat before the end of the game.

**nedTCM**

PhillyT wrote:
Am I the only one who has seen and used cc blob squads? They have been a thing since 5th. The only thing beating them are massed cc units like 30 man ork and 20 man chaos khorne squads. Everything else will be crushed or never leave combat before the end of the game.

No, I agree they are very good. However, certain units will eat through them pretty quick (like everything they have their weaknesses). Space Wolves have a few units like that. Without OP mentioning what the dude brought it is safer suggestion to go the non CC blob guard options.

Also some people don't have enough models to do it either

**PhillyT**

Could be a lack of power axes and plasma? Both will stop anything sw have available.

**Gamerely**

nedTCM wrote:
blue_crystal wrote:
Guard are a pure shooty army and just can't handle dedicated assault units in close combat. They excel at fielding special and heavy weapons on cheap bodies and at fielding heavy vehicles.

If you want to match people in assault you will need to ally in assault units from another faction.

Some tips:
-Creed is very expensive for low point games, I wouldn't field him under 2000pts
-Tempestus scions are much better in an anti-heavy infantry role, since the changes to melta guns make them unreliable at best for killing tanks. I generally field them with plasma guns and with the scion supplement to gain their special orders, which can be fun (but require more points invested in them)
-Valkyrie are alright, but I'd consider using the vendetta for its anti-air capability
-Your vets should have plasma guns if you're fielding them with demo charges
-hydras are, unfortunately, not very effective anti-air units
-you may have too many points invested in heavy armor, leaving your tanks vulnerable to alpha strikes. That said, you tanks should easily handle terminators if you can keep them safe. Consider leaving them in reserve if your opponent drop pod assaults.
-lascannon heavy weapon teams are great with tank hunter orders, but you need to field 2-3 to avoid having them killed off early (otherwise, putting lascannons in your squads like you've done is a good idea)

BC here makes some great points. (Minus the plasma demo comment, which I disagree with) I would go far to say that meltas with a walking unit is generally a bad idea. I will also add that Creed is not very good in most lists. He is just an okay character now in my opinion. Punisher Pask is find, but pick a cheaper tank. An executioner of vanquisher are good since they both sync well with Punisher weapon profile, are cheaper, and can get more benefit out of Preferred Enemy. A demolisher is better by itself. The reserve comment is a great suggestion. Suicide meltas Stormtroopers are okay, but the change to their deep strike accuracy is the real problem. Stormtroopers are kind of too expensive as it. I prefer Veterans with Plasma and carapace instead and Stormtroopers with Volley Guns. Hydras suck drop them use the other points to go Vendetta. In general, priests as better than commissars.

For Psykers, you kind of have to go big or go home. A single psyker will not bring much to the table since you won't get as much powers and dice to utilize as well as dispel if he brings a lot of his own. The most common use for a psyker is to twin-link something with prescience. Because of the unreliablility of powers, the points you spend on the psyker might be better spent just buying a second unit of the type you are trying to twin-link.

Looking at what you wrote, I wonder if the problem is with how you are playing in general verses anything else. And in addition how much is your list might not set up to fight his specific list. Do you do well against other armies? What is your buddy bringing? A DP space wolves army is tough to beat with anything army never mind one like guard that relies on long range firepower.

That said, Guardsmen are AWESOME! Lasguns will actually kill tons of units if you bring enough and their bodies can make them last forever. Especially if you have an ADL, which is still useful against the DP armies it protects against their shooting and makes their charge distance longer. Against a CC heavy army, don't blob or at least don't blob everyone. The more small units you have forces your enemy to make multiple charges to take you out. A good trick is to keep a bait squad in the front or new by and then when he gets in range, use that squad to surround his dangerous CC unit and then shot at them. Next turn he charges them and they get an over watch and then die. You turn starts and you get another volley at them. Your numbers should add some desposibillity to your forces and you should not be afraid to let them die. If he dropped a Dreadnought into your face, you should have charged them with your conscripts. It doesn't matter if they can't hurt it, the Commissar would sit back twirling his mustache all game while it basically tried his best to grind through conscripts 2 at a time.

Gives us some more info. It okay to lose as well, but if you are hitting a wall try to post everything that happened. What was his army, what upgrades did you pick, how did you both deploy? This will help us give you better advice verse just general stuff.

The main issue was that the dice were REALLy against me. I'm not exaggerating when I say that the conscripts fired over 200 shots and failed to cause a single wound. Rapid fire + 1st rank 2nd rank. The conscripts were my bait squad but the commissar died in a challenge and his 5 calvary + 2 terminators had to have cleaved through 20 guys in one round of melee, my guys failed to cause a single wound because they're strength 3 and I lost the combat and then they ran them over and wiped them out. To my credit, I failed every one of my psyker charges and couldn't get prescience to go off. This was my first time playing against Space Wolves and I plain just did not know what they were capable of, I had no idea his air was armed to the teeth against my puny air. Didn't know much about what his stuff could do, like the drop pods. I usually play against his daemons, who also wipe the floor with me, but I can sometimes win with objections. Or his Necrons which also was not a pretty fight.... at all. Probably went as bad as this game did. I have a feeling the scions are starting to cost too much, There are too few of them, deep strike 5 guys and they get their ass kicked.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhillyT wrote:
Am I the only one who has seen and used cc blob squads? They have been a thing since 5th. The only thing beating them are massed cc units like 30 man ork and 20 man chaos khorne squads. Everything else will be crushed or never leave combat before the end of the game.

In theory that sounds like it could work, but their WS makes it so difficult to get anything going if you roll like I do, roll too high on leadership tests, roll too low for shooting.

**koooaei**

Priest + xeno inquisitor with nades + power axes + prescience. Now that's you who's stomping wolves in mellee. If you want to make the blob even scarier, you can get Azrael in there for a fancy 4++ - probably rerollable with a priest.

I've had a 50-strong ig blob steamrolling close-combat oriented csm with Be'Lakor.

**PhillyT**

It's more than a theory though. It has been a successful tactic for three editions. It is completely unfair for opposing players. Brace the shooting only to die in cc!

**nedTCM**

Thunderwolf Cavalry can make a huge mess of the guardsmen. A smalll three or four wolf force might not win the fight, but strong enough to cause enough damage to neuter the unit while absorbing a lot of return attacks due to their shields and high toughness. Take a decent size unit of them is not outside the realm of possibility for a standard SW list. Even worse if he brings a mess of them.

I am not trying to argue with you either. You are right in that the power axe blob is a great unit to use. It just for all we know the dude is tailoring his list to beat guard with some sort of CC power house. So the other general suggestion is the safer one. At least in my opinion.

**greatbigtree**

Gamerely wrote:

My list was:

Creed with lascannon crew, master of ordnance
Primaris Psyker
31 conscripts with Commissar
Infantry platoon, both with lascannons blobbed with Creed
Platoon commander with 2 meltas
Pask Punisher with Demolisher Leman Russ
Tech priest
Valkyrie
Tempestus Scions, 2 meltas
Veterans with 3 meltas and demo.
Hydra

Creed can't be blobbed into anything, he's part of the CCS. Only Infantry Squads, from the same platoon, can blob up. I will say that this list is full of sub-optimal unit choices. Not to be a dick, but as honest criticism. Creed isn't worth it, Pask isn't worth it [It's the forced Squadron that sucks]. Techpriests have no real use that more points in tanks doesn't do better, Scions are ok... The Hydra is not a great value.

My experience thus far, is that Guard benefit from a 3 prong approach. Sit'n'shoot units, Grinder units, and Deep Deployment units.

Sit'n'shoot is pretty obvious. Grinder units move slowly towards something, applying firepower on the way. Deep Deployment units are used to secure distant objectives, and attack the unprotected rear of an opponent's army.

Last night, I played 1500 points. I used the following, and destroyed a pair of podded Ironclads in a single turn of fire. Lots of glancing damage.

Aegis w/ Quad
CCS w/ Lascannon, MoO, Vox Kurov's Aquila in Chimera
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Lascannon, 2x Multi-Melta
Leman Russ Eradicator, w/ Lascannon, 2x Plasma Cannon
Infantry Squad w/ Bolter, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Vox
Infantry Squad w/ Bolter, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Vox

3x Armoured Sentinel w/ Lascannons
20 Conscripts
1x Priest [Should have used a Commissar!]

Valk w/ MRP
Vets w/ Carapace, Bolter, 3x Plasma, Autocannon
Vendetta
PCS w/ Bolter, Vox, 3x Flamer

The CCS is key to the Sit'n'shoot block, so sets up between the two Russes, to prevent LOS to the side armour. Place the Quad touching both infantry units, so that either can fire it. I placed the infantry in front of the tanks, with an objective. Surround with Aegis, and tough nut to crack with tons of 24" + firepower.

In front of that I placed 3x Sentinels, providing cover to the Cons+Priest unit. They were supposed to advance to take a central objective, but wound up retreating to hold the home objective, after the home infantry were wiped out. I forgot that vehicles can claim objectives in 7th.

The two fliers came in, and deployed infantry at the end of the game to score the central objective, which won me the game.

This list gains brute strength from the CCS granting rerolls to hit and wound, coupled with BID orders and what-not. Even AV 13 needs to worry when higher than average accuracy meets Tank Hunter.

Don't get me wrong, I would have rather had LC's in the squads, but I ran out of points. The Sit'n'shoot plays to Guard's primary strength of gunline-type firepower... things that hurt a lot, but lose significant power / expose themselves to unnecessary risk by moving forward.

The Grinders are either tough, or able to handle losses without much worry. The AS are tough in assault, for Guard, so can tie up anything that would chop it's way through the Conscripts. Conversely, anything with Thunder Hammers are not going to pound through the dirt cheap infantry fast enough to be a wise investment in points... while the AS claim an objective. Demolishers, Hellhounds, Chimera Vets all fit into this category, and I'd probably use them in larger games.

Deep Deployment is pretty much limited to Flyers with infantry inside, Deep Striking Scions, or outflanking Scout Sentinels. All of these options are expensive, looking at relative damage output and survivability, but they do allow you to reach locations you couldn't easily do with Chimera Vets or the like, so are worth investing in. Not as suicide Melta, but as close range fire support / area denial.

AM aren't that great an army to try to control the psychic phase. In a single FOC, we top out at 10 dice [Astro, 3x L2 Primaris, 3x Wyrdvane] with only 7 dice being competitively priced [Wyrdvanes, Why?]. When Daemons, GK, and Eldar can easily produce 20 dice a turn, you are just wasting points against those armies. They are fine in casual games, but a TAC list must realize they can't be relied upon to produce, when your opponent generates 3 times the power dice as part of their general builds... not even trying to max out dice.

Squadroned Russes are just painfully vulnerable to assault. At least if they're separate, you can lose one and then dump the hurt on the opposing unit with the survivor!

And a final note on Power Blobs... courtesy of the originator of the phrase. [40k Online, mid 5th edition, "How to Win with Imperial Guard" Series] They aren't bad in 6/7th edition. The problem lies in needing to add a lot of points to units that are much less likely to see CC, on the whole, than previous editions. A 20 Strong Blob, that adds Commissar, 3x Power Axe, 3x Meltabombs adds 80 points to that unit. You could instead buy a 3rd infantry squad, with special and heavy, to increase your firepower by 50%. This can allow the cheaper fire support Russes to crush opposing forces after the infantry speed bump assaulters.

Layer your Infantry to take charges, letting each layer be peeled off like an onion. You would probably wind up with a turn or two of shooting before contact, a third round of shooting before second layer, a 4th round before hitting the third layer, and a 5th turn of shooting before the assaulters could hit your Russes in the back... anything that survives 5 rounds of being pummeled by a pair of Russes deserves to stand victorious upon the smoking ruin of your army.

Since those Russes can now claim objectives, you don't even really need to worry about losing all the infantry in such a fashion.

**Mavnas**

Yeah, TWC will do that to blobs. A priest would also give you a 50% chance of being able reroll your armor saves. Rerollable 5+ is a lot more survivable than 5+. Of course, if you had a div psyker who rolled the power to give them 4++, then you made that rerollable, then you could make someone sad with your blob. Honestly at 25 points each, I would add multiple priests to the blob for a chance at making sure the buffs go off in CC.

I am not trying to argue with you either. You are right in that the power axe blob is a great unit to use. It just for all we know the dude is tailoring his list to beat guard with some sort of CC power house. So the other general suggestion is the safer one. At least in my opinion.

SW units are all about being in melee. Their shooting is subpar compared to other space marines (lack of BS4 and grav guns on bikers). In exchange, TWC will make a mess of blobs of guardsmen.

**Gamerely**

greatbigtree wrote:
Gamerely wrote:

My list was:

Creed with lascannon crew, master of ordnance
Primaris Psyker
31 conscripts with Commissar
Infantry platoon, both with lascannons blobbed with Creed
Platoon commander with 2 meltas
Pask Punisher with Demolisher Leman Russ
Tech priest
Valkyrie
Tempestus Scions, 2 meltas
Veterans with 3 meltas and demo.
Hydra

Creed can't be blobbed into anything, he's part of the CCS. Only Infantry Squads, from the same platoon, can blob up. I will say that this list is full of sub-optimal unit choices. Not to be a dick, but as honest criticism. Creed isn't worth it, Pask isn't worth it [It's the forced Squadron that sucks]. Techpriests have no real use that more points in tanks doesn't do better, Scions are ok... The Hydra is not a great value.

My experience thus far, is that Guard benefit from a 3 prong approach. Sit'n'shoot units, Grinder units, and Deep Deployment units.

Sit'n'shoot is pretty obvious. Grinder units move slowly towards something, applying firepower on the way. Deep Deployment units are used to secure distant objectives, and attack the unprotected rear of an opponent's army.

Last night, I played 1500 points. I used the following, and destroyed a pair of podded Ironclads in a single turn of fire. Lots of glancing damage.

Aegis w/ Quad
CCS w/ Lascannon, MoO, Vox Kurov's Aquila in Chimera
Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Lascannon, 2x Multi-Melta
Leman Russ Eradicator, w/ Lascannon, 2x Plasma Cannon
Infantry Squad w/ Bolter, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Vox
Infantry Squad w/ Bolter, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Vox

3x Armoured Sentinel w/ Lascannons
20 Conscripts
1x Priest [Should have used a Commissar!]

Valk w/ MRP
Vets w/ Carapace, Bolter, 3x Plasma, Autocannon
Vendetta
PCS w/ Bolter, Vox, 3x Flamer

The CCS is key to the Sit'n'shoot block, so sets up between the two Russes, to prevent LOS to the side armour. Place the Quad touching both infantry units, so that either can fire it. I placed the infantry in front of the tanks, with an objective. Surround with Aegis, and tough nut to crack with tons of 24" + firepower.

In front of that I placed 3x Sentinels, providing cover to the Cons+Priest unit. They were supposed to advance to take a central objective, but wound up retreating to hold the home objective, after the home infantry were wiped out. I forgot that vehicles can claim objectives in 7th.

The two fliers came in, and deployed infantry at the end of the game to score the central objective, which won me the game.

This list gains brute strength from the CCS granting rerolls to hit and wound, coupled with BID orders and what-not. Even AV 13 needs to worry when higher than average accuracy meets Tank Hunter. Don't get me wrong, I would have rather had LC's in the squads, but I ran out of points. The Sit'n'shoot plays to Guard's primary strength of gunline-type firepower... things that hurt a lot, but lose significant power / expose themselves to unnecessary risk by moving forward.

The Grinders are either tough, or able to handle losses without much worry. The AS are tough in assault, for Guard, so can tie up anything that would chop it's way through the Conscripts. Conversely, anything with Thunder Hammers are not going to pound through the dirt cheap infantry fast enough to be a wise investment in points... while the AS claim an objective. Demolishers, Hellhounds, Chimera Vets all fit into this category, and I'd probably use them in larger games.

Deep Deployment is pretty much limited to Flyers with infantry inside, Deep Striking Scions, or outflanking Scout Sentinels. All of these options are expensive, looking at relative damage output and survivability, but they do allow you to reach locations you couldn't easily do with Chimera Vets or the like, so are worth investing in. Not as suicide Melta, but as close range fire support / area denial.

AM aren't that great an army to try to control the psychic phase. In a single FOC, we top out at 10 dice [Astro, 3x L2 Primaris, 3x Wyrdvane] with only 7 dice being competitively priced [Wyrdvanes, Why?]. When Daemons, GK, and Eldar can easily produce 20 dice a turn, you are just wasting points against those armies. They are fine in casual games, but a TAC list must realize they can't be relied upon to produce, when your opponent generates 3 times the power dice as part of their general builds... not even trying to max out dice.

Squadroned Russes are just painfully vulnerable to assault. At least if they're separate, you can lose one and then dump the hurt on the opposing unit with the survivor!

And a final note on Power Blobs... courtesy of the originator of the phrase. [40k Online, mid 5th edition, "How to Win with Imperial Guard" Series] They aren't bad in 6/7th edition. The problem lies in needing to add a lot of points to units that are much less likely to see CC, on the whole, than previous editions. A 20 Strong Blob, that adds Commissar, 3x Power Axe, 3x Meltabombs adds 80 points to that unit. You could instead buy a 3rd infantry squad, with special and heavy, to increase your firepower by 50%. This can allow the cheaper fire support Russes to crush opposing forces after the infantry speed bump assaulters.

Layer your Infantry to take charges, letting each layer be peeled off like an onion. You would probably wind up with a turn or two of shooting before contact, a third round of shooting before second layer, a 4th round before hitting the third layer, and a 5th turn of shooting before the assaulters could hit your Russes in the back... anything that survives 5 rounds of being pummeled by a pair of Russes deserves to stand victorious upon the smoking ruin of your army. Since those Russes can now claim objectives, you don't even really need to worry about losing all the infantry in such a fashion.

No I agree completely, it is sub optimal, that's 100% of the reason why I wrote this post. I'm still fairly new, this was like my 9th game so I don't know what's considered a waste of points at this point. I have been thinking about picking up an aegis wall but I wasn't sure on how to use it best. Especially games where you have to go out and capture objectives, I was worried that I wouldn't be able to sit and shoot as much. Thanks for letting me know about blobbing Creed, I was not aware that was not possible. Why would you say Pask isn't good? Old grudges, crack shot, rend on Punisher, It's served me really really well in the past, this was the first game he didn't do much for me, and that was due to the venerable dread and Stormwolf turning me inside out. Took out my heavy hitters on turn 2 essentially. But they can separate as soon as they can move so that could take out the con of bringing them.

**gwarsh41**

Hey, I am the dude he was facing! We have had a few games in the past, this was my first time busting out the wolves but my list was something like the following.

Company of the great wolf

Wolf priest, runic armor, bike. (goes with TWC)

Axe/shield dread in pod
Helfrost dread

Lone wolf, TDA, claw, shield, melta bomb
5 bloodclaw +flamer in stormwolf
5 grey hunter + plasma gun
10 grey hunter + plasma gun

3 TWC (shield pistol)(bolter pistol)(Claw shield)

Void claws

What hit Gamerely the hardest was I alpha striked my shield dreadnought right in front of his leman russ squadron. With terrain how it was, they were sort of trapped and left exposed for an assault. With them gone, and his flyer arriving turn 3 (while mine arrived turn 2 thanks to void claws) he didn't have much on the field that deterred me from charging in like a maniac. That and like +100 lasgun shots failed to do a single wound to the TWC.

From the other side of the table, mobility and multiple threats seemed to be what was lacking. His master of ordinance scattering horribly every turn didn't exactly help either. I promise I do not list tailor.

**zoat**

Nothing really over the top in that SW army.

With the russes gone and the fliers not on the table, no wonder the game went as it did. Firing lasguns at TWC didn't help either. If those shots were fired by BS2 conscripts the probability of a 100 shots doing absolutely nothing is actually around 15% if my math is not off. That 6 to wound really messes with the statistical outcome.

If this was only your 9th game, don't worry! Setup a rematch and apply some of the hints and tricks from this thread!

Not sure what you mean by "...they can separate...". If you mean Pask's squardon I don't believe that is allowed.

**greatbigtree**

A squadron of vehicles must stick within 4" of each other, and they must fire at the same target, unless, as a Tank Commander, you pass your Order Roll to split fire.

My trouble with Pask, is two-fold. First, is that by the time you upgrade to a Commander + Pask you've invested 70 points into a Russ that should typically cost about 160 points. So you're paying price and a half for an ability that is not half as good as another Russ.

If you have infantry that can benefit from orders, and you're already using a CCS with MoO... a 50 point Kurov's Aquila gives Preferred Enemy *Everything* [not just one codex... for ally purposes] to all of your units within 6". So you could park 2 Russ beside your CCS [like I've suggested] to gain preferred enemy to the two Russes... and the CCS, and their Chimera... and the infantry taking orders...

For me, the penalty of a Squadron of Russes should make them cheaper.

Having to pay extra for that, especially with Pask's special rule only applying to the turret. You can't even benefit from rending Bolters, it just feels like a poor trade. I had initially thought Pask was a no-brainer, but a couple games getting him and his brother poo-holed right off the bat just soured me on them. It's too hard to protect a pair of Russes, especially if you want a close ranged Punisher or the like.

**Gamerely**

zoat wrote:
Nothing really over the top in that SW army.

With the russes gone and the fliers not on the table, no wonder the game went as it did. Firing lasguns at TWC didn't help either. If those shots were fired by BS2 conscripts the probability of a 100 shots doing absolutely nothing is actually around 15% if my math is not off. That 6 to wound really messes with the statistical outcome.

If this was only your 9th game, don't worry! Setup a rematch and apply some of the hints and tricks from this thread!

Not sure what you mean by "...they can separate...". If you mean Pask's squardon I don't believe that is allowed.

Tanks in a squad can separate, the other Russ would just lose the benefits from having Pask around. Or so it says in the rules, kind of like an independent character leaving a troop. We ran into that issue when one Russ had been immobilized and we weren't sure if the other had to sit there and not move also.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gwarsh41 wrote:
Hey, I am the dude he was facing! We have had a few games in the past, this was my first time busting out the wolves but my list was something like the following.

Company of the great wolf

Wolf priest, runic armor, bike. (goes with TWC)

Axe/shield dread in pod
Helfrost dread

Lone wolf, TDA, claw, shield, melta bomb
5 bloodclaw +flamer in stormwolf
5 grey hunter + plasma gun
10 grey hunter + plasma gun

3 TWC (shield pistol)(bolter pistol)(Claw shield)

Void claws

What hit Gamerely the hardest was I alpha striked my shield dreadnought right in front of his leman russ squadron. With terrain how it was, they were sort of trapped and left exposed for an assault. With them gone, and his flyer arriving turn 3 (while mine arrived turn 2 thanks to void claws) he didn't have much on the field that deterred me from charging in like a maniac. That and like +100 lasgun shots failed to do a single wound to the TWC.

From the other side of the table, mobility and multiple threats seemed to be what was lacking. His master of ordinance scattering horribly every turn didn't exactly help either. I promise I do not list tailor.

well ello there my truest nemesis! I have to stop splitting up my forces... have to. I can verify that his list was made without knowledge of what I was bringing, I had a few snippets on what he was bringing but no clue as to how they worked, which also bit me on the keister. But hey, I learn something new after every one of our matches, I just need to get out of that competitive mindset that keeps me from having fun. Rematch saturday.

**Bobthehero**

blue_crystal wrote:

-Tempestus scions are much better in an anti-heavy infantry role, since the changes to melta guns make them unreliable at best for killing tanks. I generally field them with plasma guns and with the scion supplement to gain their special orders, which can be fun (but require more points invested in them)

25 pts is all you have to pay if you use a Commissar, if you want orders, then yes, it will be more expensive, but you get to field 4 special weapons.

Personally I had a bit of success with a Scion command squad with 4 volley guns, 16 str 4 AP 3 shots at 24'' range is nothing to laugh at. Have the squad twin-link itself with orders for maximum firepowers, too.

**zoat**

IIRC getting Immobilized is the ONLY time you can split up a vehicle squadron. And Pask is a 'character' not an 'independent character', so I don' think his special rules help either.

**Gamerely**

zoat wrote:
IIRC getting Immobilized is the ONLY time you can split up a vehicle squadron. And Pask is a 'character' not an 'independent character', so I don' think his special rules help either.

You're right, I just looked it up in the book and that's what it says "If a member of your squadron is immobilized, the rest of the squadron are permitted to 'abandon' it." So that's good to know.

**BlaxicanX**

PhillyT wrote:
Blob squads of guard, with a special (normally a plasma gun) lumped into a group of 30 - 50, with a priest and 3 - 5 power axes on the sergeants, will kill almost anything in the game that isn't a deathstar. Between the shooting and the overwatch, the mass of CC attacks, and the 9 - 15 S4 AP2 attacks most units won't be able to grind through by the end of the game with the fearlessness.

That's really... not true, honestly. I mean, I guess power-blobs might be able to deal with MEQ okay and therefore this guy's problem, but since when were MEQ ever good in assault anyway on a grand scale. Most of the assault units that are considered competitive would pretty much tear right through a 50-man blob within two turns of fighting, more or less.

Like, there's pretty much nothing a power-blob can do against any dedicated assault unit that has invisibility cast on it, or has some buffed invulnerable saves; many of those same units also have enough volume of attacks to chew through a blob within a span of just a couple turns (the seeker squads I run in my lists will put an average of 28 wounds on conscripts on the charge, for example, and that's not counting the initial psychic shrieks to soften it up).

I do think that power-blobs would be a good answer to MSU MEQ that's assaulty, but I'm not sure I agree with the notion that the Guard can compete with the top-tier assault codices, like Daemons.

**Jancoran**

Gamerely wrote:
carldooley wrote:
talk to your opponent. try playing smaller games, maelstrom, etc. Do you have a Commissar Lord to shepherd your conscripts? what does your list look like? also, rather than using them as conscripts, consider running platoons, not combined, and far enough apart that they can not be multi-assaulted.

My list was:

Creed with lascannon crew, master of ordnance
Primaris Psyker
31 conscripts with Commissar
Infantry platoon, both with lascannons blobbed with Creed
Platoon commander with 2 meltas
Pask Punisher with Demolisher Leman Russ
Tech priest
Valkyrie
Tempestus Scions, 2 meltas
Veterans with 3 meltas and demo.
Hydra

He dropped a drop pod because of alpha strike on first turn right in front of my 2 lemans with a venerable dread in it. Couldn't destroy it with my Lemans/platoon command squad. His flyer came in and jacked up my Pask, the venerable dread wiped both of my Lemans out right after that. The only thing I really did was kill 3 termies with the lascannons.... and that was it. 93 shots from the conscripts failed to do a single wound.

Okay a few things:
1. switch the TechPriest out for a Priest.
2. Creed cant join the blob.
3. You dont need allies, you need Power Axes for the blob and you need to leave conscripts behind. Take 40 Guardsman with 4 Power Axes and 4 lascannon. with that priest making them (effectively) fearless through the Zealot rule and the Psyker giving 5+ Deny the Witch, your unit is in good shape and can actually take melee just fine. The Lascannons can be left in place and fire every round until the charge happens.

Just those changes will make a difference, beleive me. Wanna get more nasty? Straken will give the unit awesome abilities. hide him in a chimera and let his bubble do its magic.

**koooaei**

Jancoran wrote:
...

I know you like unconventional tactix. Xeno inquisitor with nades makes a guard blob fearful in mellee. I'm sure they can stomp space wolves with a bit of luck on psyk nades. And not to rely on luck, you can get a couple of priests and Azrael for 4++ to boot. I've had 2 games with a 50-strong blob pasting nidzilla and mellee-oriented csm with Be'Lakor. Actually, Be'lakor died before striking.

Watch the wolvies run from your insane guardsmen in fear!