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I stopped playing at the new edition and the new Ork codex. I thought I needed a break, so I took one. Now I'm starting to get curious again and I am specifically wondering how people feel the new Ork dex is working out and how you feel they are doing overall with the dex and 7th ed.

Anyone have a strong opinion? How about links to most recent reviews?

I despise the new mob rule, but otherwise they're still as fun as ever. I find the 6th/7th ridiculous wound allocation to make running hordes a bit of a chore though.

It's a really cool 'dex though. Pretty, decent amount of background info. Some cool units.

Like most Ork players, I am not a fan of the new mob rule.
Neither am I a fan of the new ramshackle.
Other than that though, I rather like it.

In my area there was a surge of Ork players for about 2 wks after Santus Reach. We went from me to four new Ork armies now we are back down to 2 ORK armies and one is teetering on the idea of just going back to Warmahordes. But that is just my area.

Everyone in my area, including me, has stopped playing orks. Its not the win/loss, its the unfun rules. You cant play fast attack anymore, the mob rule and ramshackle are far too punishing. KFF was an ok change for me, I never really tried to cheese like 5 vehicles under it anyway. In fact, the only things that seem to show up anymore are imperial armies, elder and necron. And with the writing on the wall for necron nerfs, I doubht they will be bothering too many months more, either.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Like most Ork players, I am not a fan of the new mob rule.
Neither am I a fan of the new ramshackle.
Other than that though, I rather like it.

Add cybork to that list and tha'ts me.

As a long time Orc player in the old days of Fantasy, I kinda like the new Mob rule in "theory", because it reminds me of the older, sillier, unpredictable days of playing Orcs.

But I can imagine for competitive players it's probably a nightmare. I know the version of that rule cost me at least one tournament game (imagine a unit of Orc Big 'Uns squabbling instead of charging a unit of High Elf cavalry which had come up short on its charge the previous turn).

I'm yet to actually play a game with 'em, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

The new mob rule is something of a pain, it's definitely much worse than it used to be. There are ways around it, but none are good outside of passing the test in the first place. I will say that I like the idea behind the current mob rule. It just seems more fitting somehow, even if fearless was better rules-wise.

Other than that though, I like the new book. Love the look of it, the fluff is pretty good as usual for orks and the rules aren't bad. Internal balance seems pretty tight - I say seems, because I haven't gotten to try them yet.

If you use Waaagh! Ghazghkull, orks are great. There are formations for almost anything you can come up with, and there's unbound for anything else you might wanna do.

All in all, I like dem orkses. But like I said, this is from someone who's currently just building and painting stuff and getting ready to actually play.

I been having a blast with my new ork army! The only time mob rule really failed me was in my last game against tau, where half my army was either pinned or running away. I still won when the Warboss and his Hulk Klearin krew ran amok and killed the tau commander with a power claw up his chest.

I been loving the craziness and fun of it, using it as a fun army compared to my more "serious" marines.


just sit down for some fun orky goodness, play enjoyable games and it's all good!

keep in mind I started my ork army with the new codex, so I dont have a big army like some. actually pretty sad to read people are quitting because of it.

 Orock wrote:
And with the writing on the wall for necron nerfs, I doubht they will be bothering too many months more, either.

Noooo, don't say that. >.<

But anyway, my Ork friend has quit since 7th ed. rulebook/Ork codex came out. He says that by all means the book is better, but just not as fun. I tried to keep him into the game, but I couldn't really help the "my army isn't fun anymore" feeling he was having, sadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Like most Ork players, I am not a fan of the new mob rule.
Neither am I a fan of the new ramshackle.
Other than that though, I rather like it.

Add cybork to that list and tha'ts me.

My god, I have no idea why they changed Cyborg body to what it is now. It's practically useless.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
As a long time Orc player in the old days of Fantasy, I kinda like the new Mob rule in "theory", because it reminds me of the older, sillier, unpredictable days of playing Orcs.

But I can imagine for competitive players it's probably a nightmare. I know the version of that rule cost me at least one tournament game (imagine a unit of Orc Big 'Uns squabbling instead of charging a unit of High Elf cavalry which had come up short on its charge the previous turn).

Why is it the GW hates Orks I have played Orks since Third and I also play Orcs fantasy and I have never understood what makes Orcs so powerful that they needed Animosity. And now this Mob rule yet anouther punishment for playing a subpar competetive army.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I been having a blast with my new ork army! The only time mob rule really failed me was in my last game against tau, where half my army was either pinned or running away. I still won when the Warboss and his Hulk Klearin krew ran amok and killed the tau commander with a power claw up his chest.

I been loving the craziness and fun of it, using it as a fun army compared to my more "serious" marines.


just sit down for some fun orky goodness, play enjoyable games and it's all good!

keep in mind I started my ork army with the new codex, so I dont have a big army like some. actually pretty sad to read people are quitting because of it.

This sums up my feeling. I have plenty of fun and feel competitive running my orks. Not sure what the hubbub about mob rule is. I have lost boys to it but it has never really "screwed" me either. I think forums tend to focus way too much on the negative rather than just playing the game.

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Like most Ork players, I am not a fan of the new mob rule.

Mob rule is a mixed bag. On one side, you can theoretically fail ld - 1/36 with a huge mob, you ain't fearless and suffer from fear tests and can suffer more casualties before having engaged. On the other hand, i had a 10 strong boyz squad holding an imperial knight for 3 assault phases thanks to 3/4 chance of holding your ground in CC even if you've failed ld (and it's easy to fail ld 2-4 with the ammount of casualties) no matter what when you still have nob with a bp left.

It clearly favors low-model squads which we have plenty of. Remember, even a 20-strong wagonboyz squad is reduced to <10 quite fast. So, i say we've become more tarpitty! And that's good. Besides, how long did we want a bp in meganob'z squad? 'ere ya go.

All in all, i'm pretty happy with the orkses and how they play. An awesome variable army with many decent lists that can hold it's own vs even the cheesiest netlists. And has a good win rate against them. While not feeling even remotedly broken. Yep, we have some odd point pricing for stuff like kanz and naughts. We have some models like wierdboyz, flash gitz and stormboyz that almost never find their place in a regular list - they're not bad but are just outshadowed by other choices and take slots that are too valuable. However, new formations offer more and more opportunities to bring such stuff making it playable.

Mob rule is awful. Deffrolla nerf unnecessary. Everything else about the codex is solid.

The mob rule is a perfect example of GWs rules writing - replace a concise, fluffy and logical rule with a convulted mess of a random table which does nothing except slow the game down to a grind. I mean, it couldn't even be "player chooses who to assign wounds to" or "nearest orks to the enemy". No, it's random. So even after rolling on the convulted table we have to keep rolling to determine which individual models get hit.

So even ignoring that it was a completely unnecessary nerf to an already underpowered army, it's now gone from a quick single dice roll resolution to a painful slog to resolve.

Now that GWs codexes are written by comittee rather than a single person this shockingly means that Multiple People Thought It Was A Good Idea.

And oh I just love the comments of "but it's fluffy!!" It's become this editions "Ork stuff only works coz they think it does!!"

Orks don't fight each other when there's an enemy nearby.

 koooaei wrote:

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Like most Ork players, I am not a fan of the new mob rule.

Mob rule is a mixed bag. On one side, you can theoretically fail ld - 1/36 with a huge mob, you ain't fearless and suffer from fear tests and can suffer more casualties before having engaged. On the other hand, i had a 10 strong boyz squad holding an imperial knight for 3 assault phases thanks to 3/4 chance of holding your ground in CC even if you've failed ld (and it's easy to fail ld 2-4 with the ammount of casualties) no matter what when you still have nob with a bp left.

It clearly favors low-model squads which we have plenty of. Remember, even a 20-strong wagonboyz squad is reduced to <10 quite fast. So, i say we've become more tarpitty! And that's good. Besides, how long did we want a bp in meganob'z squad? 'ere ya go.

All in all, i'm pretty happy with the orkses and how they play. An awesome variable army with many decent lists that can hold it's own vs even the cheesiest netlists. And has a good win rate against them. While not feeling even remotedly broken. Yep, we have some odd point pricing for stuff like kanz and naughts. We have some models like wierdboyz, flash gitz and stormboyz that almost never find their place in a regular list - they're not bad but are just outshadowed by other choices and take slots that are too valuable. However, new formations offer more and more opportunities to bring such stuff making it playable.

Im sorry, but the knight player must have forgotten how stomp works. There is no feasible way for 10 orks to hold a knight for 3 rounds. He would have to roll so abysmally at that point that the game would be pure comedy. 3 templates should kill them 2 rounds max.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedleh wrote:
Mob rule is awful. Deffrolla nerf unnecessary. Everything else about the codex is solid.

The mob rule is a perfect example of GWs rules writing - replace a concise, fluffy and logical rule with a convulted mess of a random table which does nothing except slow the game down to a grind. I mean, it couldn't even be "player chooses who to assign wounds to" or "nearest orks to the enemy". No, it's random. So even after rolling on the convulted table we have to keep rolling to determine which individual models get hit.

So even ignoring that it was a completely unnecessary nerf to an already underpowered army, it's now gone from a quick single dice roll resolution to a painful slog to resolve.

Now that GWs codexes are written by comittee rather than a single person this shockingly means that Multiple People Thought It Was A Good Idea.

And oh I just love the comments of "but it's fluffy!!" It's become this editions "Ork stuff only works coz they think it does!!"

Orks don't fight each other when there's an enemy nearby.

Killa kanz are not solid. Str 7 and being the only walkers in the game with an effective leadership test is not solid. Having lootas moved to heavy support, our most packed spot, just to try and sell the far inferior flash gitz kits was pointless. Taking away any invun save in cc was stupid. FnP does no good when you are doubled out. Ramshackle is 1/10th what it once was in terms of usefulness. Just for the str 3 hits instead of 4. And no, making the trukk boyz cost 10 points for heavy armor just to survive is not a good trade. Fast attack became all but impossible. Lets take a common scenario. Your truck blows up, who knew that 6+ ramshackle wouldn't save you huh? So you take 10 str 4 hits. 5 wounds. Now you take pinning. Fail because the nob is LD 7. So heap some more onto that. Then you fail morale. Have some more dead orks. I have had 3 times where the only member left was the nob.

There are dozens of little nickel and dime nerfs your glossing over that really add up to shaft the basic ork book. But don't worry, for 100 dollars instead of the 50 for the basic book, you can get the ghazkull expansion, with 2 pages of extra rules and formations to play a decent ork list, We couldn't fit it all in the basic book because money.

You're right, solid was the wrong word to use. There are lots of problems with the Ork codex and I agree with every one that you listed. The ones that absolutely killed it for me are the mob rule, deffrollas and Invulnerable saves (now you reminded me!).

If I were to play 40k again I'd go back to the old codex with IA8.

 Orock wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Like most Ork players, I am not a fan of the new mob rule.

Mob rule is a mixed bag. On one side, you can theoretically fail ld - 1/36 with a huge mob, you ain't fearless and suffer from fear tests and can suffer more casualties before having engaged. On the other hand, i had a 10 strong boyz squad holding an imperial knight for 3 assault phases thanks to 3/4 chance of holding your ground in CC even if you've failed ld (and it's easy to fail ld 2-4 with the ammount of casualties) no matter what when you still have nob with a bp left.

It clearly favors low-model squads which we have plenty of. Remember, even a 20-strong wagonboyz squad is reduced to <10 quite fast. So, i say we've become more tarpitty! And that's good. Besides, how long did we want a bp in meganob'z squad? 'ere ya go.

All in all, i'm pretty happy with the orkses and how they play. An awesome variable army with many decent lists that can hold it's own vs even the cheesiest netlists. And has a good win rate against them. While not feeling even remotedly broken. Yep, we have some odd point pricing for stuff like kanz and naughts. We have some models like wierdboyz, flash gitz and stormboyz that almost never find their place in a regular list - they're not bad but are just outshadowed by other choices and take slots that are too valuable. However, new formations offer more and more opportunities to bring such stuff making it playable.

Im sorry, but the knight player must have forgotten how stomps work. There is no feasible way for 10 orks to hold a knight for 3 rounds. He would have to roll so abysmally at that point that the game would be pure comedy. 3 templates should kill them 2 rounds max.

I'm sorry but the knight player sure knew how stomps work. Firstly, it's not 3 templates, but d3. Secondly, it has a 1/6 chance of doing absolutely nothing. Nob with 2 wounds and look outs helped out a lot. Consolidation in b2b minimise casualties from stomps fairly well. Besides, he had 2 knights. And each of them got stuck for 3-4 assault phases in mobs of 10, 20 boyz. That might not happen every game but if you're clever with placing, you can hold knights with your regular boyz for fairly long.

I know, i won't be able to change the common approach to mob rule and, in all fairness, i have no intention to. But from my own games and the ones that i've seen, it's more of an advantage than a drawback, really. Random allocation is quite annoying though.

My games have been more sucksessful so far. And i have much better results with an old-school footslogging horde now rather than with the old codex. You're just locked in "OMG lootas are now HS and kanz are worse" and don't see a ton of viable stuff. For example, there's actually no desperate need for lootas no more cause we have cheap rokkits everywhere. Some things got toned down like wagonz and bikernobz, some recieved odd treatment like kanz and burnas but the whole codex is an enormous improvement.

Stuff that's not quite well on it's own in the dex is included in formations. For example, kommando formation is absolutely devastating. Zaggy vulcha boyz are also fine. Underwhelming kanz find their place in the Dread Mob formation with d3 HOW and 'ere we go! Heck, even flash gitz are somewhat viable in a Badrukk formation with master-crafted. Oh, and the green tide formation...i bet you think that 100 boyz in 1 squad is bad. But this list pulled a 3/5 win ratio at NOVA. And NOVA is famous for containing tons of flavor-of-the-month lists with cheeze scent spreading miles in all directions.

The only stuff i'm not happy with is cybork bodies right now. And overbloated HQ. Though, Mogrok formation helps with the HQ problem really well.

last sunday.... by Big Mek rolled bad and got teleported into the kight.

He survived the entire round (knight missed all CC and then failed to wound (1s) with 2 stomps.

Next round my biker nobz charged him and down he went. He killed one and his stomp managed to kill 2 (2 stomps)

so far i have no complaints, its a very fun and changeable list.

I played a few armies, but none was as entertaining as my Orks are.
Orks don't do anything perfectly, but can do a bit of everything, and has a solution for every possible enemy.
Even the most useless Orks units (Looted wagon anyone?) are fun to play thanks to special rules.

 RedizDead wrote:
I played a few armies, but none was as entertaining as my Orks are.
Orks don't do anything perfectly, but can do a bit of everything, and has a solution for every possible enemy.
Even the most useless Orks units (Looted wagon anyone?) are fun to play thanks to special rules.

Except the new book does not appear to have Looted Wagon listed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 RedizDead wrote:
I played a few armies, but none was as entertaining as my Orks are.
Orks don't do anything perfectly, but can do a bit of everything, and has a solution for every possible enemy.
Even the most useless Orks units (Looted wagon anyone?) are fun to play thanks to special rules.

Except the new book does not appear to have Looted Wagon listed.

The codex doesn't have the looted wagon as there was no official model for it, but there is a datasheet for it in WDW 21. It's pretty good for what it is. I'm sure you can find a picture of the datasheet via Google if you don't feel like giving GeeDubs a few euros.

Could you clarify how "fast attack is dead"? Coming from someone who is thinking of starting Orks and planning a core of 20+20 Stormboys and 10+ Warbikers? I haven't really heard thus far that either of those units outright suck?

Weazel wrote:
Could you clarify how "fast attack is dead"? Coming from someone who is thinking of starting Orks and planning a core of 20+20 Stormboys and 10+ Warbikers? I haven't really heard thus far that either of those units outright suck?

I don't get it either. The fast attack lists I've seen have loads of bikes, flanking buggies and lootas/ork artillery in the back. They've been doing well from what I gathered, but I don't know a great deal about Orks except for the basics so could be wrong.

We have 4 veteren ork players at my store including myself and everyone seems to like the new direction because of all the viable options. The boyz did lose the whacky rules which blows but we gained a nice boost to hq options and point drops.

I play speed freaks, another guy plays a pure mek list, we have a full artillary / deffkopta list and one greentide. So there are tons of fun options that can win games which is why I think the book is still solid.

 Orock wrote:
Killa kanz are not solid. Str 7 and being the only walkers in the game with an effective leadership test is not solid. Having lootas moved to heavy support, our most packed spot, just to try and sell the far inferior flash gitz kits was pointless.

Actually, I think they were trying to sell elite choices. The price hike to burnaz seems to emphasize that. Everyone had 45 loota/burnaz already, no money to be gained here. Otherwise agree, but you might want to add Thrakka to the list of unnecessary nerfs.

Taking away any invun save in cc was stupid. FnP does no good when you are doubled out.

Agree to it being stupid, but it doesn't really matter that often in actual gameplay, except for biker nobz being useless as collateral damage. MANz are great now, so no one sheds a tear for nobz, and a MA warboss with Da Lucky Stikk will rarely be in situation where he could have used that 5++. Against big beat-sticks you just bring a mek along to eat the challenge and then enjoy 7th ed challenge rules by beating everyone to pulp with your warboss.

Ramshackle is 1/10th what it once was in terms of usefulness. Just for the str 3 hits instead of 4. And no, making the trukk boyz cost 10 points for heavy armor just to survive is not a good trade. Fast attack became all but impossible. Lets take a common scenario. Your truck blows up, who knew that 6+ ramshackle wouldn't save you huh? So you take 10 str 4 hits. 5 wounds. Now you take pinning. Fail because the nob is LD 7. So heap some more onto that. Then you fail morale. Have some more dead orks. I have had 3 times where the only member left was the nob.

To be fair, ramshackle's S3 was a relict of an edition long gone. It never was its primary function. No way in hell would it have stayed that way. As for the old ramshackle itself, the ability made trukks even more likely to explode (albeit sometimes moving the trukk before doing so), getting wrecked is way better than a S3 explosion. Do the math, you take less wounds across multiple games now than you did with the old rule in 6th. My only complaint about ramshackle is rolling a d6 when it doesn't do anything most of the time.

Also, the chance of having your scenario(trukk exploding, failing morale twice, losing nine boyz) happening three times is 0.0000001121%. Maybe try playing the lottery?

Mob rules is a badly designed rule and a huge waste of time. It's not bad from in terms of usefulness though, for anyone but boyz or stormboyz, it's a lot better than its previous incarnation, which did absolutely nothing for smaller units. The additional hits rarely kill more than one or two boyz, and in return you get the equivalent of ld9 for passing pinning and morale. Even if you lose combat by a lot, you still have a 75% chance to stay in combat if your have a character and a boss pole.

A bunch of people are doing quite well with three to four different styles of armies on these boards. Most army stiles are still very playable if you are willing to adapt a little, the only real losers of the codex are armies focused on nothing but boss bikers and kan walls (though those were dead in 6th already).

Solid armies include:
- Kult of Speed (few trukk boyz, many warbikes, mek gunz)
- Battlewagon bash (with or without blitz brigade)
- Green Tide (using the formation from Waaagh! Ghazghkull)
- Dakka orks (mek gunz, shoota boyz, tank bustaz, buggies/koptas/blitza bommers, MANz missiles)

Thanks all, this is a lot of great insight and I'll consider it all. I guess I might revisit my greenskins this winter and see how I feel about it.

As an aside, how do Orks fare without discernible psychic phase models? Are we just sitting around with our green non existent wangs in our hands?

I've only played a few games of 7th (I stopped about 6 months into 5th, because I moved to a place without a good game store), but both my games were against Eldar and I didn't feel my lack of psyker too keenly.

I just saved my dice for whatever power would hurt me most and tossed them all at that one. Every few turns, it worked. ;D

Psykers never screwed me over. Though Perfect Timing against my squad of Kommandos in ruins hurt pretty badly. lol.

matphat wrote:Thanks all, this is a lot of great insight and I'll consider it all. I guess I might revisit my greenskins this winter and see how I feel about it.

As an aside, how do Orks fare without discernible psychic phase models? Are we just sitting around with our green non existent wangs in our hands?

docdoom77 wrote:I've only played a few games of 7th (I stopped about 6 months into 5th, because I moved to a place without a good game store), but both my games were against Eldar and I didn't feel my lack of psyker too keenly.

I just saved my dice for whatever power would hurt me most and tossed them all at that one. Every few turns, it worked. ;D

Psykers never screwed me over. Though Perfect Timing against my squad of Kommandos in ruins hurt pretty badly. lol.

This. You get d6 dice to deny stuff, just toss them all at whatever power is the most dangerous. The new psychic phase has actually made many powers pretty unreliable, so not having a psycher is not that bad. Pain boyz, HQs with da lucky stikk and KFF meks can hand out force multipliers without needing to roll for them, so we aren't loosing out in that category either.

While the new weirdboy is actually a pretty decent HQ, but he suffers from orks having a metric ton of awesome HQs and not enough slots and points to field them all. On top of that, I often face tzeench daemons and eldar, who can just toss 6+ DTW dice at whatever you are trying to cast, so no fun.

 matphat wrote:
Thanks all, this is a lot of great insight and I'll consider it all. I guess I might revisit my greenskins this winter and see how I feel about it.

As an aside, how do Orks fare without discernible psychic phase models? Are we just sitting around with our green non existent wangs in our hands?

Weirdboyz are great! mine killed abbadon one game with ork puke

 koooaei wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Like most Ork players, I am not a fan of the new mob rule.

Mob rule is a mixed bag. On one side, you can theoretically fail ld - 1/36 with a huge mob, you ain't fearless and suffer from fear tests and can suffer more casualties before having engaged. On the other hand, i had a 10 strong boyz squad holding an imperial knight for 3 assault phases thanks to 3/4 chance of holding your ground in CC even if you've failed ld (and it's easy to fail ld 2-4 with the ammount of casualties) no matter what when you still have nob with a bp left.

It clearly favors low-model squads which we have plenty of. Remember, even a 20-strong wagonboyz squad is reduced to <10 quite fast. So, i say we've become more tarpitty! And that's good. Besides, how long did we want a bp in meganob'z squad? 'ere ya go.

All in all, i'm pretty happy with the orkses and how they play. An awesome variable army with many decent lists that can hold it's own vs even the cheesiest netlists. And has a good win rate against them. While not feeling even remotedly broken. Yep, we have some odd point pricing for stuff like kanz and naughts. We have some models like wierdboyz, flash gitz and stormboyz that almost never find their place in a regular list - they're not bad but are just outshadowed by other choices and take slots that are too valuable. However, new formations offer more and more opportunities to bring such stuff making it playable.

Im sorry, but the knight player must have forgotten how stomps work. There is no feasible way for 10 orks to hold a knight for 3 rounds. He would have to roll so abysmally at that point that the game would be pure comedy. 3 templates should kill them 2 rounds max.

I'm sorry but the knight player sure knew how stomps work. Firstly, it's not 3 templates, but d3. Secondly, it has a 1/6 chance of doing absolutely nothing. Nob with 2 wounds and look outs helped out a lot. Consolidation in b2b minimise casualties from stomps fairly well. Besides, he had 2 knights. And each of them got stuck for 3-4 assault phases in mobs of 10, 20 boyz. That might not happen every game but if you're clever with placing, you can hold knights with your regular boyz for fairly long.

I know, i won't be able to change the common approach to mob rule and, in all fairness, i have no intention to. But from my own games and the ones that i've seen, it's more of an advantage than a drawback, really. Random allocation is quite annoying though.

My games have been more sucksessful so far. And i have much better results with an old-school footslogging horde now rather than with the old codex. You're just locked in "OMG lootas are now HS and kanz are worse" and don't see a ton of viable stuff. For example, there's actually no desperate need for lootas no more cause we have cheap rokkits everywhere. Some things got toned down like wagonz and bikernobz, some recieved odd treatment like kanz and burnas but the whole codex is an enormous improvement.

Stuff that's not quite well on it's own in the dex is included in formations. For example, kommando formation is absolutely devastating. Zaggy vulcha boyz are also fine. Underwhelming kanz find their place in the Dread Mob formation with d3 HOW and 'ere we go! Heck, even flash gitz are somewhat viable in a Badrukk formation with master-crafted. Oh, and the green tide formation...i bet you think that 100 boyz in 1 squad is bad. But this list pulled a 3/5 win ratio at NOVA. And NOVA is famous for containing tons of flavor-of-the-month lists with cheeze scent spreading miles in all directions.

The only stuff i'm not happy with is cybork bodies right now. And overbloated HQ. Though, Mogrok formation helps with the HQ problem really well.

If you want to settle for the inferior codex that's fine, but I know if I was to somehow be able to play myself, and one picked a 1500-2000 point list from the old codex, against the new, the new would get spanked.