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How many big tournaments did the orks win in the US since the new codex?

Did Orks have a history of winning big tournaments with the old codex?

(I'm not being cynical, I really don't know.)

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Did Orks have a history of winning big tournaments with the old codex?

(I'm not being cynical, I really don't know.)

When the codex first came out yes.

Fat zero for this one. in fact, I don't think an ork has made top 3, aside from maybe necron allies.

Then it has been a long time.

What killed it for me was the nurf to deff rollers, red paint, loss of inv saves with cyborg, walkers still suck, lootas move to a over crowded heavy slot, naught and mega cannons price tags, zag being totally worthless, ramshackle, ect ect....

I

To be fair, it didn't make sense that lootas were elite. I mean, they carry a big heavy gun. How are they not Heavy Support?

Because they carry a elite weapon?

Prob because they were in a box with burnas who are elite

only thing i dont get in the entire codex is the Red Paint... it seems useless. Should be d6 or something.

I don't think Orks (or Warhammer for that matter) are for people who play tournaments. If that's the type of game you want look elsewhere.

While I will always love my orks, my perception is that the new codex, combined with other codexes, really shoehorns the orks into second banana status.

IG can work more effectively as a mob army. Other armies work more effectively as a fast army. Heck, with the new Pain rules, I suspect the Dark Eldar can be fielded as a tougher army than orks. It seems like anything orks can do, someone else can do better. They are the NPCs to other people's heroes. Sigh.

In addition, they added lots of fiddly rules for things that happen ALL the time. A chart for morale and pinning tests? That's not going to slow down the game for a horde army at all, is it?

Then, on top of that, things which should have had fiddly rules, like Bubblechukkas, just got random dice rolls for STR and AP. Not sure how that represents the gun in any way.

Still, fantastic models and the most uniquely characterful army in 40K, though.

 Jidmah wrote:


Solid armies include:
- Kult of Speed (few trukk boyz, many warbikes, mek gunz)
- Battlewagon bash (with or without blitz brigade)
- Green Tide (using the formation from Waaagh! Ghazghkull)
- Dakka orks (mek gunz, shoota boyz, tank bustaz, buggies/koptas/blitza bommers, MANz missiles)

You forgot to include Kommando madness and walker wall.

And in smaller games the old-school green tide is doing fine too. Later on, you're better off with a green tide formation, but when at 1250 or below 20-30 strong squads are doing fine.


...fast attack is dead...wait wut?! It's like telling an eldar player that dedicated transports are dead.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chute82 wrote:
What killed it for me was the nurf to deff rollers, red paint, loss of inv saves with cyborg, walkers still suck, lootas move to a over crowded heavy slot, naught and mega cannons price tags, zag being totally worthless, ramshackle, ect ect....

I

Deff rollas were allready sub-par in 6 with pre-measurement. Besides, there's so many fast skimmers and flying stuff that even if you could catch them (which i doubt) they'd have a good chance to avoid everything.

Loss of inv saves is annoying but the only ones who really suffered were nob bikers. Bosses would be tougher with 5++ but the thing is we're not afraid of challenges with the new challenge system and meks.

Lootas moving to HS was predictable. And you have plenty of opportunities to take them with all the detachment goodies. Now i'm not happy with flash gitz staying in HS, but we've got a dataslate for than too.

Naughts - agreed here. Both point price and cash. I'm also not happy with kanz costing 50 a piece. With their rules, they feel more like 40 for one but they're still fine within a dread mob formation.

Zzap is not totally worthless. Free shakes are great! And they dropped in price. But the new overheats are more dangerous paired with inability to add runtherds to grots. At least ammo runts help here. The thing with zzaps is that they're fine but not nearly as good as other options like lobbas(pure awesome), kmk(awesome) and trakktors(one of the best anti-air in the entire game atm). Some people like smashas too but i prefer to just stick to tons of rokkits everywhere.

Deeply unimpressed with 60+ % of the new dex.

Ghaz supplement is a little better.

I pretty much have stopped playing my Orks, which is a shame. They are just not fun anymore, except for the occasional game.

Sounds like GW are fething over my DE also, so this may be the spur i need to sell everything i still have off and change hobbies.

I still have a smallish, fully painted Mono-nurgle daemons army to use if i ever do get back to playing 40K, but lately it's had all the fun sucked out for me...

 Orock wrote:
If you want to settle for the inferior codex that's fine, but I know if I was to somehow be able to play myself, and one picked a 1500-2000 point list from the old codex, against the new, the new would get spanked.

I'd totally take you up on that bet if bringing an army worth of orks to the US would be such a hassle.

I can assure you that a 4th edition list wouldn't stand a chance against a 7th edition list, assuming both were using battleforged armies from the current BRB. The list of things that are actually better than in the old codex without replacement is impressively short.

- Trukks "lost" ramshackle, but trukk armies were never good to begin with, MANz don't care about S3 or S4.
- Battlewagons lost the the deff rolla, but those were already crippled by 6th ed and a wagon without it can now always make an S8 ram (S9 with reinforced ram). Orks also got mek gunz, tank bustaz, blitza bommers and 50% off of all rokkits for anti-vehicle.
- Can no longer buy cybork for HQs. You can buy a Mek instead, which is basically at least +1W for your HQ, when challenges are involved it makes your HQ unable to be hit by an enemy character for a turn, much better than relying on a 5++ against Abbadon, Draigo or Lysander.
- Can no longer buy cybork for biker nobz. However, the new warbikers outmatch the old bikernobz in efficiency.
- Can no longer buy cybork for for nobz. MANz have been buffed to not only be equal to, but superior to the old nobz.
- Lost lootaz in elite. Tank bustaz got a metric ton of buffs to make them better than lootaz ever were and are still in elite.
- Lost fearless on units above 10 models. Gained a 75% to chance to pass any failed moral or pinning tests on units below 10 models.
- Thrakka lost almost everything that made him worth taking, though a lot of that was already gone in 6th. In return, we got Da Lucky Stikk which enables a MA warboss makes 5th edition thrakka look like a grot. Rerolling all your failed 2+ saves, then rerolling all your faile 3+ to hit rolls and then rerolling all your failed 2+ to wound rolls adds up to winning any combat by a landslide.
- KFF now covers less models, but can no longer be ignored.
- Kanz lost S10 and gained a "leadership test". Yeah, those suck now, I'll give you that, but not a whole lot more than before. The leadership rarely ever happens, and if it does and you do fail it... shaken doesn't prevent your from running.

I also love the "game is not fun anymore" and "the codex has become bland" arguments. The only three "fun" things that disappeared were ramshackle, ol'zogwort and the weirdboy table. In return, we got the mob rule table, a warlord table, a relic shoota that can randomly shoot your own guys, the bubblechucka for random blasts, three psychic disciplines for the weirdboy, a kustom mega slugga, a tellyporta blasta for hitting yourself with scatter and zzap gunz got even more likely to fry their grots.

The only reason behind those arguments I can see are:
1) You expected a complete overhaul of the codex like the really old codices got. In that case orks weren't more fun or less bland before, you've probably got a problem with the game Warhammer40k as a whole.
2) You expected GW to buff the very units you were playing before, which had probably had a ton of the competitive choices like lootaz, kanz and nob bikers, and GW nerfed those instead.

Well for me, who was that one ork player who found joy in things like tankbustas, Deffcoptas, komnandos, and big Gunz- I love fielding the silly versions of other armies' special units- the new codex is gravy for me. I know people are buttmad about the new mob rule, but I've long since memorized the table and honestly find that it just makes my smaller units of boyz less likely to break entirely at 25% casualties.

Add that into the fact that tankbustas are gloriously good in the current meta of my local store and I'm happy as a clam.

Da Butcha wrote:
While I will always love my orks, my perception is that the new codex, combined with other codexes, really shoehorns the orks into second banana status.

IG can work more effectively as a mob army. Other armies work more effectively as a fast army. Heck, with the new Pain rules, I suspect the Dark Eldar can be fielded as a tougher army than orks. It seems like anything orks can do, someone else can do better. They are the NPCs to other people's heroes. Sigh.

In addition, they added lots of fiddly rules for things that happen ALL the time. A chart for morale and pinning tests? That's not going to slow down the game for a horde army at all, is it?

Then, on top of that, things which should have had fiddly rules, like Bubblechukkas, just got random dice rolls for STR and AP. Not sure how that represents the gun in any way.

Still, fantastic models and the most uniquely characterful army in 40K, though.

AM/IG can make any sort of army work, that's just how their codex works right now. Blobs are doable with them, but I sure prefer our mobs - we get to roll more dice in combat.

Hm, orks can't be a fast army? Depending on the deployment, stormboys can get a turn 1 charge. If you have a warboss, they're almost guaranteed to get into combat by turn 2. Warbikers can jink all day and because we're orks, we don't care about snap firing. Especially not with TL dakkaguns we don't. Warbuggies are cheap as chips and still as fast as before... I'm not seeing how other armies can do fast better than we do.

DE are going to be a very different army. Power from pain seems interesting, but I still prefer the ork way of doing things. Just stick a painboy in your mob and you have FNP, no need to wait a few turns for it. I will say that DE seem scarier than any army if given enough time. I'm very curious to see if the units have to be on the table to benefit from power from pain - if not, reserving units is going to be beast mode!

As for mob rule, it isn't so bad once you get used to the table and no longer have to look it up. Or you could be a propa goff and have units with Da Boss iz Watchin' (so units from Waaagh! Ghazghkull) - they can't ever roll a 1, but take D3+3 hits. As long as you have a character in your unit, you don't even have to roll on the table, just inflict D3+3 S4 hits and you passed whatever test you just failed.

I actually like bubblechukkas, they're simple. They could've been given really complicated rules, but what we got isn't so bad either. With a full battery of bubbles, you're putting down 5 large blasts, so even if you roll badly and thus have low S, you get to throw lots of dice. And thanks to the AP being identical to the S, any successful to wound rolls make for a casualty. It somehow seems... Elegant to me, for lack of a better word. They seem fun is all I'm saying.

I've always felt that orks mimicked other armies, but kind of went over the top with it - and in a good way. Tankbustas are like devastators, except ork rokkit launchas are assault and can only fire one kind of missile... But no one cares, because you can have 15 in a mob! I guess what I'm trying to get at is that orks were never really more effective than other armies, they just massed things more.

They're still da best. Waaagh!!!

People saying that playing Orks or playing Orks in 7th edition is not fun, must be playing a different game from me. I really like them.

I never feel like I am going to be totally outclassed and have a chance at the game. Maybe I just play in a reasonable group that likes to play the game for what it is worth rather than lamenting about what it was or what it could be? I think Orks are just fine. The last 2 games I played I created lists from units I had never tried before (Kans & Deff Dread, and last night Burnas) mostly because when I read lists people say the units "suck". Were they great, no, but I still had fun playing the games. I won one (Kans vs. AM) and lost one (Burnas vs. Black Templars).

Orks might not be for everyone, but I have fun playing them, and enjoy building and painting them.

 Chute82 wrote:
Because they carry a elite weapon?

No, they carry a heavy weapon. A deffgun is a heavy weapon. It's basically an autocannon.

Yep, and that's why IG heavy weapon squads with auto-cannons are heavy support choices as well... no wait!

Last codex, yes, yes they were.

Now it's a bit strange. The heavy weapon squads can only be bought in an infantry platoon. Sort of like nearly every other race who has troop squads that have a heavy weapon option.

Also, Havocs with Reaper Autocannons (all heavy weapons) - HS

Devastators with Heavy Bolters (all heavy weapons) - HS

Lootas with Deffguns (all heavy weapons) - HS

Oh look, consistency.

I say that Stompa, as very heavy pile of metal, should be a Heavy support choice as well!

Orks for me are not about being competitive but more about being fun. I saw the new rules and in some ways it helps with the "character" of Orks and I like that a lot. I'll probably loose more games over it, but oh well.

In a year or two they'll but some other version and my Orks will start tearing it up I'm sure.

 RedizDead wrote:
I say that Stompa, as very heavy pile of metal, should be a Heavy support choice as well!

Can't, Mork made him move over to let his little Gorkanaut brothers take over

If you stack two nauts together though I'm sure that can make a stompa.

From my point of view, I was mad when I first saw the codex and saw the results of my first few games. I wanted to burn my orks into a solid pack of plastic and send it to GW...

But you know what, a few months later, I have spent 500$ more on my ork collection and I am happy, really happy, to paint them, modify them, collect them and play them.

What happened between then and now? I just started playing them for fun and less for wins and strangelly, I get better results now and especially far more fun.

I just love playing with My 30 stormboyz and 15 bikers+painboy in my lists. Add to that a few BWagon full of sluggas, Tankbustas, Komandos, Deff dreads, Meganobz, Kustom mega kanons or lobbas and I am a happy camper (obviously, these doesn't all end up in a single list, they are what I like to play with).

So, from my point of view, I am happier now than with the older codex... go figure!

I played a weird boy against Space wolves the other day and he was rilling 3+DTW when I was having to roll 4+ to activate the powers. All in all I would take a Pain boy, Big Mek, or Warboss all are just better choices.

a wierdboy is good if you got a second CaD for your army as a supporting unit. it has it's advantages sometimes...


like hitting pathfinders and killing them with super nasty warp vomit

ok I keep reading the same thing over and over on the forums and can't understand it. people keep saying that the new mob rule is so much better for units under 10 models, it saves you 3/4 of the time, units under 10 models are saved 75% of the time. Is there some Errata that I missed?? Because the chart I have saves you on a roll of 1 if you are engaged in CC, or on a roll of 2&3 saves you if you have a character, but 4-6 if you don't have 10 or more models you run away. So if you are not in combat and are not 10 or models you are only helped by Mob Rule 1/3 of the time that is assuming you have a Charater in said unit.
Am I missing somthing???

Orkhead wrote:
ok I keep reading the same thing over and over on the forums and can't understand it. people keep saying that the new mob rule is so much better for units under 10 models, it saves you 3/4 of the time, units under 10 models are saved 75% of the time. Is there some Errata that I missed?? Because the chart I have saves you on a roll of 1 if you are engaged in CC, or on a roll of 2&3 saves you if you have a character, but 4-6 if you don't have 10 or more models you run away. So if you are not in combat and are not 10 or models you are only helped by Mob Rule 1/3 of the time that is assuming you have a Charater in said unit.
Am I missing somthing???

Maybe people are figuring out their claim by assuming the presence of a boss pole in the unit. But I can't say if the reroll would give you a net save on 3 out of 4 attemps.

I am enjoying them. They can be played similarly to the way they were in the past and there are some fun options with the formations and supplements.

Orkhead wrote:
ok I keep reading the same thing over and over on the forums and can't understand it. people keep saying that the new mob rule is so much better for units under 10 models, it saves you 3/4 of the time, units under 10 models are saved 75% of the time. Is there some Errata that I missed?? Because the chart I have saves you on a roll of 1 if you are engaged in CC, or on a roll of 2&3 saves you if you have a character, but 4-6 if you don't have 10 or more models you run away. So if you are not in combat and are not 10 or models you are only helped by Mob Rule 1/3 of the time that is assuming you have a Charater in said unit.
Am I missing somthing???

You are both right and missing something

First of all, whenever a character is present anywhere, it should have a boss pole. Rolling a single successful mob rule due to a boss pole across a game pays for all the boss poles in your army right there.

Second, you're right that 75% (which is the same as 3 out of 4) only applies in combat. You have a 50% chance to roll a one, two or three, and a 50% chance to fail. When re-rolling, you have another 50% chance to pass those first 50%, adding up to a total of 75% to pass in combat, as long as a character is present.
Outside of combat, the chance to pass drops to 33.33%, the re-roll of the other 66.66% adds another 22.22% chance to pass, for a total of 55.55% to pass a moral test you'd normally have failed outside of combat.
Under the old rules, a unit at 7 or less had a 58.33% to pass their test the second time around, and the pole would still cause a wound (not a hit). When moral was already being reduced by combat results, psychic powers or wargear, the re-roll was weaker as well.

I think the first one is the more impressive one. You've probably have had the situation where a riptide, mephiston or soulgrinder charges your unit, your pk fails all his attacks, you lose combat by three or four, causing moral tests on next to nothing. Another situation is you fighting other unit of close combat experts and while killing most of them, they have caused more wounds to you and this the champion/exarch/sergeant and his last subordinate proceed to sweep your unit. In either case you now have a 75% chance to pass on top of your regular chance to pass moral in the first place, which might even be enhanced by ICs and/or warlord traits.

I still like the Orks, they still are a lot of fun.

But, as most do, i hate the new mob rule.
The Ork infantry have never been as unreliable as today and that's not a good thing IMO. They run of the board WAY too easily...

BUT:
if you field them in vehicles or other transports, or take fast units like stormboyz, bikers or take Kommandos this problem gets less of a problem.

And it just CAN'T be a coincedence that after a codex that favours max infantry units of 30, the new one favours all other units in vehicles
That is how you sell miniatures ;-)

Orks are definately not "the new black" in tournaments, but they are still fun and playable.