Germany's defense minister warns that her country currently can't meet its long-term NATO commitment

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Frazzled**

Wow.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/09/29/352466655/germany-red-faced-over-military-equipment-failures

Germany's defense minister warns that her country currently can't meet its long-term NATO commitments because of a widespread grounding of German military planes and helicopters.
"At the moment, we are below the target numbers announced a year ago on airborne systems we would want to make available to NATO within 180 days in cases of emergency," Ursula von der Leyen told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag over the weekend. "The reason is the delays in getting replacement parts" for planes and a recent grounding of German navy helicopters.
Scores of German military aircraft have been grounded, according to confidential reports recently leaked to the German media. Only 42 of 109 Eurofighters are considered airworthy, as are 38 of 89 Tornado fighters. Of Germany's C-160 military transport planes, only 24 of 43 are in service and a delivery of replacement Airbus transportation planes is behind schedule.
Reported tears in the tails of German Sea Lynx helicopters that are taking part of European Union anti-piracy operations off the Horn of Africa led to the grounding of 22 of those aircraft.
Over the weekend, a military transport plane bringing German equipment to western Africa to help in the fight against Ebola was stuck on Gran Canaria island because of a technical problem. The German defense ministry said Monday that the plane is still there awaiting repair.
The revelations have embarrassed the German government, after Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier assured the U.N. General Assembly over the weekend that Germany would take on a greater international security role
A growing number of German ruling coalition and opposition politicians are calling on Von der Leyen to spend more to fix the widespread problems. This year, Germany reduced defense spending by more than $1 million, to $41.3 billion, which is far below NATO's recommended level of 2 percent of the GDP.
"This is embarrassing for such a large country as Germany with such a big economy," former German armed forces chief of staff Harald Kujat told Rundfunk Berlin-Brandenburg radio.

**LordofHats**

That is a sorry state. I can understand a state wanting to not spend as much on guns and ammo as the US. We certainly spend a lot, but to not even have the ability to maintain the 'guns and ammo' you have in it's small amount is quite surprising.

**Mr Morden**

Well nations like Germany tend to rely on other nations to carry out military actions - yeah I get there are reasons that they (and other) don't want Germany to have a powerful military but maybe they should just bankroll other nations that are willing to do the fighting.............

Can't keep relying on the United States to do all the work - not just in warfare but in terms of humantarian support that only the military seems able to do quickly.

**Da Boss**

The germans are pretty anti-war generally, but they were in both of the US wars in the middle east in the last decade and are also involved in numerous peace keeping or monitoring missions around the world.

They do spend less than some other countries on their military of course, but that's up to them I guess.

**Kilkrazy**

Last time I went to Germany, it was a year ago, I noticed their train system was rather badly maintained.

I am saying that British trains are any better, but it was sort of nice to see a few dents in the reputation of German industrial efficiency.

**Hordini**

Da Boss wrote:
The germans are pretty anti-war generally, but they were in both of the US wars in the middle east in the last decade.

The Bundeswehr wasn't in Iraq.

**1hadhq**

Frazzled wrote:
Wow.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/09/29/352466655/germany-red-faced-over-military-equipment-failures

Germany's defense minister warns that her country currently can't meet its long-term NATO commitments because of a widespread grounding of German military planes and helicopters.
"At the moment, we are below the target numbers announced a year ago on airborne systems we would want to make available to NATO within 180 days in cases of emergency," Ursula von der Leyen told the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag over the weekend. "The reason is the delays in getting replacement parts" for planes and a recent grounding of German navy helicopters.
Scores of German military aircraft have been grounded, according to confidential reports recently leaked to the German media. Only 42 of 109 Eurofighters are considered airworthy, as are 38 of 89 Tornado fighters. Of Germany's C-160 military transport planes, only 24 of 43 are in service and a delivery of replacement Airbus transportation planes is behind schedule.
Reported tears in the tails of German Sea Lynx helicopters that are taking part of European Union anti-piracy operations off the Horn of Africa led to the grounding of 22 of those aircraft.
Over the weekend, a military transport plane bringing German equipment to western Africa to help in the fight against Ebola was stuck on Gran Canaria island because of a technical problem. The German defense ministry said Monday that the plane is still there awaiting repair.
The revelations have embarrassed the German government, after Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier assured the U.N. General Assembly over the weekend that Germany would take on a greater international security role
A growing number of German ruling coalition and opposition politicians are calling on Von der Leyen to spend more to fix the widespread problems. This year, Germany reduced defense spending by more than $1 million, to $41.3 billion, which is far below NATO's recommended level of 2 percent of the GDP.
"This is embarrassing for such a large country as Germany with such a big economy," former German armed forces chief of staff Harald Kujat told Rundfunk Berlin-Brandenburg radio.

No surprise.

If it is up to our politicians , only their pet projects receive funds... and armed forces isn't very well loved. Risky and no prize to be won.

**chaos0xomega**

Anyone remember when the Luftwaffe was the scourge of the skies? Pepperidge Farm remembers...

**Blacksails**

As a Canadian, I feel for them.

Same stuff over here.

**Da Boss**

Oh, sorry! I thought they had been.

Good for them! It was a clusterfeth.

Kilkrazy- Man tell me about it. I was on a DB train last night, 90 minutes late. Tried to get a different train, it was also 90 minutes late. Got a train as far as Frankfurt, and only managed to get a connection because it was 10 minutes late. Got in 2 hours later than the plan.

Total PITA, and it's not that uncommon.

**Sigvatr**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Last time I went to Germany, it was a year ago, I noticed their train system was rather badly maintained.

Pretty much the entire infrastructure is in terrible shape. Schools, autobahnen, streets, railroads, public transportation...the problem Germany has, from a financial point of view, is that on the one hand, taxes are freaking INSANE, forcing everyone with a high income to exploit each and every loophole there is, but on the other hand, you got a giant social safety network that eats more money than you could possibly get. This is now, slowly, starting to fall back on Germany. Companies aren't satisfied by the poor infrastructure. Everyone can point to exact shortcomings and mistakes and tell how much they affect each given company, putting the German state in a terrible place for negotiating about additional taxes etc. Not that I'd complain, but Germany has to get its ass up. It's time to completely turn the tax system around and make it more transparent. The problem for a lot of high-income citizens isn't that they pay a lot of taxes - it's that those taxes just disappear into nowhere with no means of tracking where the money goes. I rather donate the money I save by avoiding taxes because I can easily track where it goes.

Create "tax pools" showing exactly where the money goes. Lower taxes. Lower social security costs and, with the saved money, increase wages by...lowering taxes.

**Sienisoturi**

Germany I am very disapointed.

**Kilkrazy**

Still, it isn't all bad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29380144

**Steve steveson**

Da Boss wrote:

They do spend less than some other countries on their military of course, but that's up to them I guess.

Not really. The point in NATO is mutual defence, but if one country chooses not to pay the agreed minimum it's not realy mutual.

Germany may have managed to avoid too much of a financial crisis by not having a structural deficit, but it seems that you can see where they should have been spending more money. The refusal to spend in hard times may yet damage them.

**daddyorchips**

according to this, germany are eighth in the world for military expenditure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

but that's not enough for some people on here, apparently.

it's going to cost a lot of money over the next few years to prop up western capitalism in the face of climate change. maybe we should find another way to do it.

**Frazzled**

daddyorchips wrote:
according to this, germany are eighth in the world for military expenditure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

but that's not enough for some people on here, apparently.

it's going to cost a lot of money over the next few years to prop up western capitalism in the face of climate change. maybe we should find another way to do it.

Er...if GERMANY is the one saying it can't make its NATO commitments, evidently its NOT THE PEOPLE ON HERE.

**Ouze**

daddyorchips wrote:
according to this, germany are eighth in the world for military expenditure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

but that's not enough for some people on here, apparently.

Yeah, yeah
Some folks inherit star spangled eyes
Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord
And when you ask 'em, "How much should we give?"
Ooh, they only answer "More! More! More!", y'all

**whembly**

daddyorchips wrote:
according to this, germany are eighth in the world for military expenditure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

but that's not enough for some people on here, apparently.

it's going to cost a lot of money over the next few years to prop up western capitalism in the face of climate change. maybe we should find another way to do it.

You do know that analysis is bogus.

The only way to can try compare is to somehow standardize the cost to purchase/operate the military between countries.

Don't get me wrong, the US will be way up there on that charge, but not to that extreme.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

whembly wrote:
You do know that analysis is bogus.

I think % of GDP is pretty instructive. Ohhhh, the U.S.A. favorite theocratic hate-spewing dictatorship is all the way up here. That nice buddy-buddy of ours!

**Frazzled**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
whembly wrote:
You do know that analysis is bogus.

I think % of GDP is pretty instructive. Ohhhh, the U.S.A. favorite theocratic hate-spewing dictatorship is all the way up here. That nice buddy-buddy of ours!

Canada?

**Swastakowey**

There is a joke here in NZ that we cant afford to fire our few missiles.

I think its somewhat normal for nations who arent fighting wars etc or havent had a conflict in a while to start letting their military degrade. I dont know much about Germany and its role in global conflicts. But I assume they dont fight often.

**Hordini**

Swastakowey wrote:
There is a joke here in NZ that we cant afford to fire our few missiles.

I think its somewhat normal for nations who arent fighting wars etc or havent had a conflict in a while to start letting their military degrade. I dont know much about Germany and its role in global conflicts. But I assume they dont fight often.

They've been in Afghanistan and do humanitarian and peacekeeping missions elsewhere.

**Jihadin**

Well. Time to leave Germany then.

**Hordini**

Jihadin wrote:
Well. Time to leave Germany then.

Hah. Not likely.

**Grey Templar**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
whembly wrote:
You do know that analysis is bogus.

I think % of GDP is pretty instructive. Ohhhh, the U.S.A. favorite theocratic hate-spewing dictatorship is all the way up here. That nice buddy-buddy of ours!

% of GDP is only a good comparison if you don't consider why a nation's military is as big as it is. Otherwise its like saying a Blue Whale is fatter than an Elephant.

Remember the US military isn't just protecting the US. Its protecting a good chunk of the globe, including a lot of the countries we get compared to who have smaller military spending.

But sure, ridicule us. Have fun fending off Russia all on your own Europe

**Jihadin**

Hordini wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Well. Time to leave Germany then.

Hah. Not likely.

All we need is Rammstein lol

**Dreadclaw69**

Jihadin wrote:
Hordini wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Well. Time to leave Germany then.

Hah. Not likely.

All we need is Rammstein lol

With the state of the German armed forces it looks like it's yours to keep

**Ensis Ferrae**

Jihadin wrote:

All we need is Rammstein lol

And by extension, Landstuhl.

I wonder what would happen if someone in the German Government were to inquire, as Japan did, about renegotiating their WW2 treaties in order to expand their military capabilities.... I mean, if funding is the issue, then if they were to get more money, they could handle the upkeep on the gear they have.

Or, they could stop using DHL, and use UPS or FedEx... I've never had anything arrive late shipped through them

**Hordini**

Grey Templar wrote:
Remember the US military isn't just protecting the US. Its protecting a good chunk of the globe, including a lot of the countries we get compared to who have smaller military spending.

Yeah, exactly. We're subsidized defense for all of NATO, and more.

**Jihadin**

Well we are going to pre WWII strength level so NATO needs to step up and put up or whatever