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Saldiven wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
...regains wounds with each casting and has some Carrion or Fell Bats or Terrorghiests or whatever on your war machines by turn 2.

The Carrion or Fell Bats have to deal with around 60 Crossbowmen and 20 Irondrakes.

Hm. So...that's two of the four or more possible threats. The two smallest ones, but hey, whatev.
You've got over 1500pts dedicated to killing Nagash and/or protecting the stuff that's dedicated to killing Nagash. Whereas Nagash himself is summoning units to protect himself now, kill you later, and is also a serious threat in his own right. 7 S8 attacks that do D3 wounds and a Thunderstomp? Oh, and he probably knows Purple Sun.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But it is far, far from easy. Anyone who claims Nagash can be defeated with a "my list has X of these and Y of these" wham-bam-done strategy has another thing coming.

Forgot he could re-roll Miscasts. It makes sense, of course, but jeeze. This guy's crazy.

Saldiven wrote:

The Carrion or Fell Bats have to deal with around 60 Crossbowmen and 20 Irondrakes.

From what I've seen, it's 3 units of bats, 3 units of carrion, 2 units of vargeists, ~4 units of dire wolves, and then 3-4 units of skeleton fast cav.
It's threat saturation that gets by, a typical dwarf army can't stop enough of the chaff in time. Let alone the block of 100 zombies that gets summoned on a 12+ to cast.
If you've got the models, and play smart, Nagash is crushing.

Khalida blocks don't have it too bad either.

Righteous smiting and poisoned shots from an entire core allotment of archers can do some hurt.

60 archers @ twenty wide put off 50 shots.

25 hits = about 6 poisons, plus a few lucky regular wounds.

Righteous smiting makes it better, as does Enchanted Blades or Harmonic Convergence, since I use forbidden lore in my Undead Legions lists.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
Khalida blocks don't have it too bad either.

Righteous smiting and poisoned shots from an entire core allotment of archers can do some hurt.

60 archers @ twenty wide put off 50 shots.

25 hits = about 6 poisons, plus a few lucky regular wounds.

Righteous smiting makes it better, as does Enchanted Blades or Harmonic Convergence, since I use forbidden lore in my Undead Legions lists.

If nagash lined up in the open against that...
50/6 is poison
60/3/6 is normal hits that wound.
11.11 wounding hits. 4+ armor, 4+ ward. 2.77 wounds.
Or, Nagash could just deploy back a little out of range, summon a mob point blank (36" range for summoning) and tie up the block for the rest of the game.

From what I've seen, S3 shooting is a pretty bad solution.

My first thought was Dwarf Artillery. I might not be the most original, but I think that's probably the easiest and most efficient way to counter him.

Blow him to pieces with the accurate, heavy-hitting monster guns.

Which, as I pointed out above, aren't all that heavy-hitting.

Simplest and most efficient? Got to be the Speculum.

Can you kill him with regular shooting?

Anyone do the maths on how many archers it would take to remove a wound from him.

I am most interested in stats for Bretonnians, they have good range and are very cost efficient in terms of throw weight per point. I suspect you will not be able to survive killing Nagash in stages and you need enough bowmen to do the job in one or two shooting phases.

How many would I need, is it at all practical?

I cant see Bret knights getting close enough for the kill, and cant see any better way for the faction.

You would about 24 hits to cause one wound. Assuming that you need 4's to hit.... You're looking at roughly 336 bowmen to pop Nagash in one turn.....

 welshhoppo wrote:
You would about 24 hits to cause one wound. Assuming that you need 4's to hit.... You're looking at roughly 336 bowmen to pop Nagash in one turn.....

OK, so not practical then. Trebuchets are too random. What can Brets do then? Spam Paladins on Pegasi? The Virtue of Heroic Killing Blow sounds good, but wont live to swing.

 Orlanth wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
You would about 24 hits to cause one wound. Assuming that you need 4's to hit.... You're looking at roughly 336 bowmen to pop Nagash in one turn.....

OK, so not practical then. Trebuchets are too random. What can Brets do then? Spam Paladins on Pegasi? The Virtue of Heroic Killing Blow sounds good, but wont live to swing.

If he takes the ask sword like he should do, he will.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
You would about 24 hits to cause one wound. Assuming that you need 4's to hit.... You're looking at roughly 336 bowmen to pop Nagash in one turn.....

OK, so not practical then. Trebuchets are too random. What can Brets do then? Spam Paladins on Pegasi? The Virtue of Heroic Killing Blow sounds good, but wont live to swing.

If he takes the ask sword like he should do, he will.

ASF sword?

Virtue of Heroism doesn't stack with magic weapons.

Yes it does, it was faq'd a long time ago. Always strikes first and hope for that six. It's better if you get a damsel to give him the power of beasts.

Warpsolution wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
...regains wounds with each casting and has some Carrion or Fell Bats or Terrorghiests or whatever on your war machines by turn 2.

The Carrion or Fell Bats have to deal with around 60 Crossbowmen and 20 Irondrakes.

Hm. So...that's two of the four or more possible threats. The two smallest ones, but hey, whatev.
You've got over 1500pts dedicated to killing Nagash and/or protecting the stuff that's dedicated to killing Nagash. Whereas Nagash himself is summoning units to protect himself now, kill you later, and is also a serious threat in his own right. 7 S8 attacks that do D3 wounds and a Thunderstomp? Oh, and he probably knows Purple Sun.

I'm not saying it's impossible. But it is far, far from easy. Anyone who claims Nagash can be defeated with a "my list has X of these and Y of these" wham-bam-done strategy has another thing coming.

Forgot he could re-roll Miscasts. It makes sense, of course, but jeeze. This guy's crazy.

Two cannons and three stone throwers are about 700 points, runed up. The Crossbowman are the obligatory Core selections. The Irondrakes are good against anything, and will probably even take down a Terrorgeist on their own. They're set up in four separate units. Each Crossbow unit can wipe out a typical unit of Fellbats or Carrion in a single round of shooting, or at least drop it down to an ineffectual level, even against a warmachine crew (dwarf machines have three crew and are T4).

There's not "1500 points dedicated to taking down Nagash." There is about 700 points of warmachine that exist in a take-all-comers gunline style list. There is nothing in the list specifically dedicated to taking down Nagash.

I repeat, unless there is a kind of terrain you rarely see in WHFB on the table, there's not going to be enough LOS blocking to keep him safe from 5+ warmachines. I stand by the fact that he'll die in two turns of shooting. He gets wounds back when he casts? Sure, that's what my dispel dice and dispel runes are for. Purple Sun? That's what a spelleater is for. After one round of shooting, he'll probably have one or two wounds left. He might get a couple back after his magic phase. The next round will see him dead. Even your own math supports this assertion. After two rounds of shooting, just from warmachines, he should take around 11 total wounds.

I didn't mean "you only take those 1500pts to take on Nagash". I meant, "1500pts of your army are doing nothing but trying to kill Nagash (or prevent his chaff from tying up the stuff you're using to kill Nagash)".

Assuming those 20 Irondrakes all get to fire (unlikely), and they're at a 4+ to hit, it's 3.3 wounds on a Terrorgheist. Good. But not great. And that would mean that the 'gheist has already gotten in range and Screamed at one of your war machines.

I'm not saying that Nagash will be able to hide from all 5 machines. I'm saying he'll be able to hide from several of them. Sitting right behind a building will make it a lot harder for at least one cannon to peg him, and possibly make 1-2 Grudge Throwers fire indirectly.

Also, I'm prrretty sure Nagash can safely laugh at Dwarfen anti-magic. He's got tons of spells, a 5+ to cast, and re-rolls miscasts. So he can 6-dice safely, and throw out a lot of serious threats, and you'll be hard-pressed to dispel it normally.
And that's assuming there's no Heirotitan, Casket, and/or Mortis Engine helping him get even stupider.

The average Dwarf list has, what, two Spellbreakers? Maybe one or both of those are Spelleaters?
All he needs is one casting to protect himself or threaten your shooting or block your line of sight with a mess of Crypt Horrors.

Again. Not saying it's impossible. But anyone who tells me that Nagash is a breeze is either being silly or has never faced him. If you play carefully, it's a coin-toss as to who wins. If your opponent also plays carefully, it could still be close, but the odds will be in their favor.
Nagash is bent. Period.

I took Marathi once and outcast Nagash.

He isn't the best at casting spells,she is. With a minimum of +5,
And. A. Maximum of+8*, she is a raw powerhouse at getting. Through spells. And yet even. She struggles against dwarves. People always complain about. Six dicing spells and getting double sixes, yet that's a lucky circumstance.


As for how to kill Nagash, don't force through the stuff to kill him in a single turn. Let several little things go through every turn. Take 3-4 wounds off him in a turn, and he can realistically get 2-3 back per phase.


And as for Nagash being a breeze, I've played him twice, and he has never cast a single spell or gotten into combat.

Saldiven wrote:
Dwarfs with a silly number of Runed up War Machines?

For just the cost of Nagash alone, the Dwarf player could field 2 cannons with Forging, three Accurate Grudge Throwers, and two Accurate Organ Guns. There are plenty of points to include additional useful runes to make sure there are not identical rune combinations.

In more me fashion I'd throw a ton of Slayers at him lol ...supported by cannons and stuff lol

deathfisting slaughter master. take away his power to cast anything, while beating him down with wounds from a distance. finish him off with a toothcracker, just for the lols. then use his skull as a crockpot for the boys to cook supper in.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I took Marathi once and outcast Nagash.

He isn't the best at casting spells,she is. With a minimum of +5,
And. A. Maximum of+8*, she is a raw powerhouse at getting. Through spells. And yet even. She struggles against dwarves.

Yeah, she's a better Wizard on her own. But, to be fair, she doesn't have access to the Casket, Engine and 'titan. Nor does she have T7 and W7 to soak up all but the worst Miscasts.
How does she struggle against Dwarfs, though? +2 to cast (or +4, if they take that Hammerers with Valaya, or forsake protection on their BSB) and 2 Dispel Scrolls isn't exactly fearsome.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
People always complain about. Six dicing spells and getting double sixes, yet that's a lucky circumstance.

This is a legit point, and one I've always felt went addressed. What are the odds of box cars on 6 dice? 20-something-%?

 thedarkavenger wrote:
And as for Nagash being a breeze, I've played him twice, and he has never cast a single spell or gotten into combat

Then that is because your opponent has been foolish, because you have gotten lucky, or some of both. Or your making it all up, I suppose.

There is a 1 in 4 chance of miscasting on a 6-dice attempt. When I realised that, I stopped trying to force through 6-dice attempts with my TK casters. Of course, you'll still usually get even a 25+ spell off with that many dice (needing only an average roll) but it is not exactly the guaranteed thing that it is made out to be.

Karl Franz Ascendant

 Acardia wrote:
Karl Franz Ascendant

Will kill absolutely anyone, period.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Of course, you'll still usually get even a 25+ spell off with that many dice (needing only an average roll)...

Not even that. It's a 50-50 shot. And when it comes to Loss of Concentration, I almost always throw at least one more die than I'd need to have that 50-50 chance. I want the odds in my favor. Not a coin flip.

Nagash vs KFA. Nagash needs to avoid combat, by spawning units that prevent KFA's charges.

a Miasma may be crucial in a nagash list, it's not the end of the world, to have him arrive on the scene.

Karl Franz ascended.

strikes the same time as nagash at the same WS. 10 attacks, all hits wound automatically, no armour saves and each does D3+1 wounds.

He has a 4++ too but I think they will kill each other at the same time.

*EDIT: only now saw he has been mentioned earlier. He will on average do 7.5 wounds per turn to Nagash and 10 wounds to Glottkin

 Charles Rampant wrote:
There is a 1 in 4 chance of miscasting on a 6-dice attempt. When I realised that, I stopped trying to force through 6-dice attempts with my TK casters. Of course, you'll still usually get even a 25+ spell off with that many dice (needing only an average roll) but it is not exactly the guaranteed thing that it is made out to be.

You have a 66% chance of getting one six on six dice. Well, 66.51%. So more towards the 67%. (Formula is 6^6 - 5^6/6^6)
It's slightly lower than that. More like 1 in 5 for two sixes.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
There is a 1 in 4 chance of miscasting on a 6-dice attempt. When I realised that, I stopped trying to force through 6-dice attempts with my TK casters. Of course, you'll still usually get even a 25+ spell off with that many dice (needing only an average roll) but it is not exactly the guaranteed thing that it is made out to be.

You have a 66% chance of getting one six on six dice. Well, 66.51%. So more towards the 67%. (Formula is 6^6 - 5^6/6^6)
It's slightly lower than that. More like 1 in 5 for two sixes.

I read data that said 24% so close to 1 in 5.

 Acardia wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
There is a 1 in 4 chance of miscasting on a 6-dice attempt. When I realised that, I stopped trying to force through 6-dice attempts with my TK casters. Of course, you'll still usually get even a 25+ spell off with that many dice (needing only an average roll) but it is not exactly the guaranteed thing that it is made out to be.

You have a 66% chance of getting one six on six dice. Well, 66.51%. So more towards the 67%. (Formula is 6^6 - 5^6/6^6)
It's slightly lower than that. More like 1 in 5 for two sixes.

I read data that said 24% so close to 1 in 5.

Doing the maths quickly in my head, I worked it out to be about 22.9%.

That's still fairly safe odds.

Super Saiyan Franz kills everything.