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morgoth wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.

I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.

Here's a real Wave Serpent: moves 12", stays out of charge range and only fires its scatter laser and serpent shield every turn. Never has any protection fron pens, loses 75% of its DPS when it jinks.

Much less impressive than your theoretical WS isn't it.

Yes if WS was like a Lemman Russ or a predator and was max 2 in list. Only it is not there is 4+ of them in the list and a ++2inv deathstar to deal with.

Bharring wrote:
... And AV11 superheavies, and widespread t3 5+, and most things being ID'd by s6. And nothing with an av11+ rear armor.

Dire Avengers cost Marine points for a t3 4+.

Glass cannon is the DE schtick. Outside Wraith armies, Eldar usually use their mobility, misdirection, and superior tech to be high unkillable, until they commit with explosive fury, at which point they are very vulnerable, if they failed to handle every threat.

The problem is that the Serpent has the explosive fury while being nigh unkillable.

T3 5+? Typically it's T3 4+ with 3+ elsewhere. Really the rare 5+ you'll see is Guardians and that's it.

Dire Avengers cost CSM points (-1 off SM), and generally come out of it with better guns and mobility in an army that benefits from drastic buffs.

Dire Avengers costing CSM points means that they're expensive and CSM are gak.

But yes, Eldar are a fragile army. T3 4+ saves are fragile, and more importantly their small numbers makes them fragile. Wave Serpents aren't even that durable. They're extremely easy to glance to death or punk in assault, and avoid those things by utilizing its vast speed and long range to dance out of their range.

... exactly like a fragile, highly mobile unit is supposed to do.

Still not defending Serpents though. Frankly, it's not even the "knock pens to glances" part that bothers me. It's the god damn 60'' ignores cover d6+1 strength 7 attack. I mean, what the hell dude? It's a troop transport. lol

I recall a theory someone on Dakka said that the 60'' range printed is a typo, and should actually just be 6''. That would make so much more sense.

Yeah, If it were reduced to 6" it would be so much more bearable. Right now it can snipe at your army from across the table.

Of course, if it were a typo GW probably would have FAQ'd it by now.
Oh wait...

It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death. And they are not easy to catch in assault.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Morgoth, alright, lets look at this in a different way. Nobody denies the falcon is worth its points right?

The Falcon is not worth its points.
Compare it with other battle tanks, it's a piece of crap.


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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.

I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.

Obviously I'm not saying that it does all of those at once, it's the versatility which makes them so effective. Hell, it doesn't need to do all of those at once to be insane. Even if it does jink, the other 3-5 Wave Serpents in the army are going to make up for any lost DPS.

That's not how it works.
Say the opponent has one long fang squad, aims for a WS, WS jinks.
The WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a StormPlaneOfDoom, aims for another WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a LasPredator or Land Raider, aims for a third WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.

That's a relatively soft list that's not even tailored to take down mech, and already 3WS are reduced to 25% of their DPS, one has probably exploded already.

If it's a competitive list, there are at most three other Wave Serpents, so you've effectively reduced their DPS to almost 4 WS total that round (even though the Jinked ones may be fired at the Flyer, picking your targets will greatly diminish those possibilities.


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 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Not really sure where the notion of "fragile" Eldar is coming from. Guardians are fragile....and that's about it. 4 of the 7 aspects have a 3+ save. Jetbikes are essentially fast marines. WS are easily the most durable dedicated transport south of a land raider. And then we get to wraith units, with lords and knights having a toughness value typically only found on gargantuan MCs, while the lowly guard just has the same T as a greater daemon.

Fragile is not how I would describe Eldar.

If you take assault in consideration, hitting on the AV10 rear makes WS very fragile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
The problem is that the Serpent has the explosive fury while being nigh unkillable.

It's really not that hard to kill. If you try to take it down with the wrong weapons and tactics it may take a while though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:

Yes if WS was like a Lemman Russ or a predator and was max 2 in list. Only it is not there is 4+ of them in the list and a ++2inv deathstar to deal with.

Then go play unbound and declare CAD the problem instead of whining about a unit that is not OP by itself.

That's because the Falcon is not a battle tank. It's a transport.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That's because the Falcon is not a battle tank. It's a transport.

You mean it's a bad transport and bad battle tank at the same time ?
I see now how it's totally worth its point cost, which is more than an annihilation barge, Night Scythe, Las Predator and so many other things.

A WS costs 210 points and a Falcon 140, we still don't use falcons. Care to guess why ?

morgoth wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Morgoth, alright, lets look at this in a different way. Nobody denies the falcon is worth its points right?

The Falcon is not worth its points.
Compare it with other battle tanks, it's a piece of crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Shrödinger's Wave Serpent. It moves 30" fires three weapons at full BS, has its serpent shield up and fires it as well, benefits from night fighting stealth and operates on an infinite surface.

I think you may be running out of straw for your strawmen, it CAN do all those things, not all at once but it can do the various things it needs to.

Obviously I'm not saying that it does all of those at once, it's the versatility which makes them so effective. Hell, it doesn't need to do all of those at once to be insane. Even if it does jink, the other 3-5 Wave Serpents in the army are going to make up for any lost DPS.

That's not how it works.
Say the opponent has one long fang squad, aims for a WS, WS jinks.
The WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a StormPlaneOfDoom, aims for another WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.
He also has a LasPredator or Land Raider, aims for a third WS, WS jinks.
That WS may come out alive - may.

That's a relatively soft list that's not even tailored to take down mech, and already 3WS are reduced to 25% of their DPS, one has probably exploded already.

If it's a competitive list, there are at most three other Wave Serpents, so you've effectively reduced their DPS to almost 4 WS total that round (even though the Jinked ones may be fired at the Flyer, picking your targets will greatly diminish those possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Not really sure where the notion of "fragile" Eldar is coming from. Guardians are fragile....and that's about it. 4 of the 7 aspects have a 3+ save. Jetbikes are essentially fast marines. WS are easily the most durable dedicated transport south of a land raider. And then we get to wraith units, with lords and knights having a toughness value typically only found on gargantuan MCs, while the lowly guard just has the same T as a greater daemon.

Fragile is not how I would describe Eldar.

If you take assault in consideration, hitting on the AV10 rear makes WS very fragile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
The problem is that the Serpent has the explosive fury while being nigh unkillable.

It's really not that hard to kill. If you try to take it down with the wrong weapons and tactics it may take a while though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:

Yes if WS was like a Lemman Russ or a predator and was max 2 in list. Only it is not there is 4+ of them in the list and a ++2inv deathstar to deal with.

Then go play unbound and declare CAD the problem instead of whining about a unit that is not OP by itself.

Everyone, take a drink, he just told us to "play better." The WS are worth far more than they cost and you can get a billion of them. They are broken.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Everyone, take a drink, he just told us to "play better." The WS are worth far more than they cost and you can get a billion of them. They are broken.

Watch it, he's gonna call you out for saying that you can take a billion Wave Serpents. There aren't even a billion in production!

Because you have wave serpents. Lets do the comparisons like you asked. Comparing to other AT tanks.
Falcon with BL and holofields comes in at 150pts:
Durability: 12/12/10, 3+ jink
Manoeuvrability: Fast skimmer, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 18", can move over things and thus ignore units and terrain in the way.
Damage output: 2 st8 ap2 and 1 st8 ap1 lance at bs4.
Transport cap: 6.

BA las pred 180pts.
Durability: 13/11/10, no jink. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: Fast, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 12", cannot move over things, takes DT tests. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Damage output: 3 st9 ap2 shots, 1 of which is tl. Winner - Pred (moderate)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Also costs 30pts more and the winner is the falcon hands down.

SM las pred 155pts.
Durability: (as above). Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, can only move 6" and shoot to full effect. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: as above. Winner - Pred (slight as it cannot get side shots as easily since it is not fast)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Again - hands down winner is the Falcon and the pred still costs more.

Leman Russ Vanquisher with lascannon. 145pts.
Durability: 14/14/11, no jink. Winner - LR (big)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, 6" max move before it loses efficiency. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: 1 bs3 st9 ap2 and 1 bs3 st8 2d6 pen ap2 shots. Winner - Draw (Bs3 and one shot less makes a huge difference despite the 2d6 pen roll)
Transport cap: None. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
5pts less, I'd say a draw over all.

Grot Mega tank with 2 tl rokkit launchers and 3 rokkit launchers. 140pts.
Durability: 12/11/10. 5+ invuln. Winner - Falcon (slight)
Manoeuvrability: 2d6" move and still fire weapons, 3d6" if flat outing. May reroll dangerous terrain tests. Winner - Falcon (big)
Damage output: 3 st8 ap3 and 2 tl st8 ap3 at bs3 and 24" and may fail to shoot 1/6 of the time. Winner - Falcon (big, it may only get 2 average hits compared to the grots 2.5, but it has a much bigger range and also ap2)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (Infinite).
10pts less but again the falcon is the hands down winner.

You think the falcon is pants because you think the wave serpent is appropriately costed and you compare them. Also a night scythe is a flyer not a battle tank, whilst the anni barge is universally accepted as very undercosted.
As I have demonstrated, the Falcon is very appropriatly costed. Now I have done this, can you please explain why 1+d6 st7 tl bs4 ignores cover shots, extra capacity of 6 and a switch from HS to DT is worth only 15pts?

Your conclusions are not correct.

AV12 with holofields is not better than AV13.

Jink now costing damage output and being no better than a ruin cover save is not that much of an advantage, especially as a shooting platform.

The transport capacity of the Falcon is useless, Skimmers don't ignore terrain, because there's only 5" between their starting position (front) and finishing position (back).

The way you compare the Leman Russ is ludicrous.

Any unit is fit for comparison, including Night Scythes.

And lastly, the Wave Serpent requires units to be taken for it, meaning it clocks in at 210 points, not 145.

And no, the units taken for it are never worth their points so you can't simply discount them.

I would personally never take a unit for it if it wasn't required, no matter the current power level of the Wave Serpent.

Your saying in an edition where objectives are scored each turn and the ability to deliver troops to these objectives, a transport capacity is useless?
You say jink can be replaced by cover saves, in an edition where movement is key and getting cover saves is not always possible, or even slightly possible in many tactical situations, especially with outflank, deepstrike, fast skimmers and warp jump generators flanking positions.
You then go on to say the ability to move over terrain and units (with a max possible move of 30" btw), means nothing.
And then you say my comparison with the vanquisher is ludicrous without giving reasons.

And then you have the audacity to say we need to play better, thus contradicting all the tactical 'nous' you've been spouting.

That's it - I'm out. You really do have blinkers on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh nice edits - guess I'm not out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So you claim the units required to buy a serpent should cost nothing?
You asked to compare to other armies battle tanks - unless you have gone back and completely edited that too. A nights scythe is not a battle tank. And to compare the falcon with units that are universally accepted as undercosted does not help make your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And av12 with holofields is mathmatically FAR more durable than av13.

If your real problem is with this edition's slowed missions, say it.

There is no point in nerfing the Eldar just because the missions favor their hallmark abilities.

If you move a tank 30", it does nothing else that turn, that's expensive nothing else right there.

I think people should learn to play against the Wave Serpent instead of hoping to nullify it with lists that refuse to take it into account.
When there's something that breaks your combo, you start by writing a list that utterly annihilates it, and test it to make sure it's really *that* efficient.
When you're done with that exercise, you back merge all you can into a more TAC list, and see how it fares.

I haven't seen anyone do that, people just bring their own combos and whine when it doesn't deliver against a unit they chose to ignore.

I have no problem with this editions mission types - it actually creates a far more tactical-non gunline game. Being able to move a tank 30" into a flnaking position, or to completely wrong foot a slower opponent by redeploying your battle line, is HUGE, especially if you have a transport capacity.
Back to the wave serpent - being able to move 30" have a 3+ jink on an av12 hull which also gets to ignore pens is MASSIVE if you want to deliver a unit.
I've written plenty of lists that counter wave serpents, but they are either necrons, fingers crossed drop pod melta (because if you don't get them when you drop - that's it), IF lascannon devs in bunkers (need to pay a hefty tax in fortifications), and more recently Sicaran Battle tanks (with which I've had to resort to buying a £50 book, soon to invest in the tanks, had to proxy up till now, and have to convince people to play FW - I shouldn't have to do all that to take on a races basic DT). You have to MASSIVELY adjust your list to fight serps, to an extent unlike almost any other unit in the game. A unit shouldn't do that all on its own.
It is horrendously undercosted, and you seem to be the only one in the thread who thinks otherwise despite their being other eldar players here. Doesn't that tell you anything?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the fact that your claiming serpents cost 210pts (and thus meaning dire avengers should be free to all eldar), clearly shows you do not take these units for tactical reasons but to spam your serpents. Also it shows you undervalue your troops whilst telling us to play better. Furthermore it demostrates that you have no idea about the 'troop tax' other armies have to pay.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Also the fact that your claiming serpents cost 210pts (and thus meaning dire avengers should be free to all eldar), clearly shows you do not take these units for tactical reasons but to spam your serpents. Also it shows you undervalue your troops whilst telling us to play better. Furthermore it demostrates that you have no idea about the 'troop tax' other armies have to pay.

On the contrary, I'm helping you realize the issue is not where you think it is.
Play unbound, don't play Maelstrom and suddenly you'll realize the Wave Serpent is really not the top unit of 40K.
It just happens to break the old flavor of TAC and enable actually good CAD lists that's all.

A drop pod can land anywhere on the table turn one, has a weapon and costs what 35 points ? and you're whining about my delivery mechanisms ? you can't be serious.


In conclusion, the Wave Serpent is really fine, it's just that it allows for CAD lists with a very low percentage of inefficient stuff, a trick rather hard to pull with most armies.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Because you have wave serpents. Lets do the comparisons like you asked. Comparing to other AT tanks.
Falcon with BL and holofields comes in at 150pts:
Durability: 12/12/10, 3+ jink
Manoeuvrability: Fast skimmer, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 18", can move over things and thus ignore units and terrain in the way.
Damage output: 2 st8 ap2 and 1 st8 ap1 lance at bs4.
Transport cap: 6.

BA las pred 180pts.
Durability: 13/11/10, no jink. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: Fast, can move 12" and shoot 2 weapons, can flat out 12", cannot move over things, takes DT tests. Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Damage output: 3 st9 ap2 shots, 1 of which is tl. Winner - Pred (moderate)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Also costs 30pts more and the winner is the falcon hands down.

SM las pred 155pts.
Durability: (as above). Winner - Falcon (moderate)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, can only move 6" and shoot to full effect. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: as above. Winner - Pred (slight as it cannot get side shots as easily since it is not fast)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
Again - hands down winner is the Falcon and the pred still costs more.

Leman Russ Vanquisher with lascannon. 145pts.
Durability: 14/14/11, no jink. Winner - LR (big)
Manoeuvrability: not fast, 6" max move before it loses efficiency. Winner - Falcon (huge)
Damage output: 1 bs3 st9 ap2 and 1 bs3 st8 2d6 pen ap2 shots. Winner - Draw (Bs3 and one shot less makes a huge difference despite the 2d6 pen roll)
Transport cap: None. Winner - Falcon (infinite)
5pts less, I'd say a draw over all.

Grot Mega tank with 2 tl rokkit launchers and 3 rokkit launchers. 140pts.
Durability: 12/11/10. 5+ invuln. Winner - Falcon (slight)
Manoeuvrability: 2d6" move and still fire weapons, 3d6" if flat outing. May reroll dangerous terrain tests. Winner - Falcon (big)
Damage output: 3 st8 ap3 and 2 tl st8 ap3 at bs3 and 24" and may fail to shoot 1/6 of the time. Winner - Falcon (big, it may only get 2 average hits compared to the grots 2.5, but it has a much bigger range and also ap2)
Transport cap: none. Winner - Falcon (Infinite).
10pts less but again the falcon is the hands down winner.

You think the falcon is pants because you think the wave serpent is appropriately costed and you compare them. Also a night scythe is a flyer not a battle tank, whilst the anni barge is universally accepted as very undercosted.
As I have demonstrated, the Falcon is very appropriatly costed. Now I have done this, can you please explain why 1+d6 st7 tl bs4 ignores cover shots, extra capacity of 6 and a switch from HS to DT is worth only 15pts?

Right.
In a world without a Serpent, the Falcon becomes quite useful in an Eldar army.
As a tranport say for Firedragons and as a gunboat.

Isn't a LasPred 140?
And isn't a BL/Holo Falcon 160? (Or am I still overpaying for Falcons?)
In any event, I don't see a LasPred costing *more* than a Falcon.

LasPred clearly loses on mobility.
LasPred clearly wins on dakka (s9 vs s8 is huge).
For survivability:
the jump to AV13 is substantial. Immune to all s6 (SLs, SCs, StarCannons, etc), can't be penned by s7 (PGs, Serpent Shield, etc), and more resiliant vs anything stronger. Jink is big, but who doesn't find some sort of cover for their Pred?
With Jink + Holo, you're looking at 1/6 - 1/3 improved survivability for 25% reduced firepower. Better 'n blowing up, sure. But certainly worse than av12 vs av13? Which is a 1/6 improvement vs s10, 1/3 for s9, worse for anything weaker.
My conclusion is that av13 vs av12 is better than jink + bolo.
Falcon does have Transport Capacity. Drawbacks include being chargeable if it gets too close - meaning it won't drop off melee units well. And a capacity of 6. That means only half their infantry (Banshees, DAs, etc) can use it. And even then, too few to really put down the hurt the way a Raven or Rhino or Serpent can. Useful, but not as critical as most assume.

My read is that Falcons are slightly less effective as LasPreds. Their mobility is nearly worth the points difference. The transport let's me play MechDar to a limited extend with fewer Serpents, and small teams of aspect warriors are fun. That said, I lose them faster than I lose LasPreds, and they have less dakka. And I don't find LasPreds a great choice (AutoLas or DakkaPreds usually - Devs if I want Lascannon spam).

So the Falcon seems on the low side of just fine, to me.

Falcon costs 150pts without shuriken cannon upgrade. Las pred may be 140, I don't have my dex on me atm and forgot the price of the tl las upgrade. Estimated it to be 30pts - so should have said 145pts.
Av13 isn't that much better if at all compared to av12 with 3+ against AT weapons, which is what both are usually shot with. On top of this, side armour of 12 on the serp compared to 11 on the pred at least balances it out, if you don't already think it is the equivalent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If sitting back and shooting 3 st9 compared to 3 st8 with 1 lance is big. But when you also consider that the falcon has the maneuverability to get side shots easily, whereas the pred doesn't, it begins to make its damage output back.

Poly Ranger wrote:
It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death.

Is the Wave Serpent the only AV12 vehicle in the game that can get a 4+ cover save?

3+. No - but it is guaranteed it. It is the only one I am aware of that converts 5/6 of pens to glances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other vehicles for example have to stay behind cover of they want to keep that (lower) save, which reduces tactical flexibility. The maneuverability and range also benefits its durability.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death.

Is the Wave Serpent the only AV12 vehicle in the game that can get a 4+ cover save?

All skimmers can jink. Thus there are a lot more.

It isn't anymore guaranteed than the save you can get with any other vehicle. Unless you're a sociopath who plays with little to no cover on the board, any vehicle can be plopped down in cover and sit there for the entire game.

People don't do that, generally because if a vehicle spends the entire match in cover its firepower usually suffers in some manner as a result.

Nobody jinks their serpents the entire game either, because why bother taking a Wave Serpent at that point. It's firing snap shots the entire game.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
It takes 27 SM krak missiles on average to glance a serp to death. 18 hit, 9 pen/glance, 6 jink saved. 3 HP. 27 missile shots is not easy to glance to death.

Is the Wave Serpent the only AV12 vehicle in the game that can get a 4+ cover save?

All skimmers can jink. Thus there are a lot more.

Indeed. I had a hell of a time trying to kill an opponent's Annihilation Barges a couple weeks ago. If trying to glance jinking AV12 to death is hard, trying to glance out jinking AV13 is a nightmare.

I see a lot of references of Eldar being a T3 4+ save.

The only time I see anything like that is a local Ulthwe player who buys Guardians to get Wave Serpents and puts them in the backfield, or outflanks if available.

Eldar are really either T4 with a 3+ or 2+, often re-rollable, or T6 3+, or T8 3+ 5++

An Aspect Warrior or Footdar list isn't overpowered per se; really strong against Marines by virtue of being able to, army wide, counter armour (and even if you only do a bladestorm wound 1/6 times against a terminator, you're paying back just shy of half your squad's cost per shot, so it's still very favourable), but has actual weaknesses.

Serpents, biker deathstars with re-rollable good saves up the wazoo, Wraithguard, Wraithknights and whatnot are the norm for Eldar, without the Serpents they can just fall back on stupid-awesome psychic powers able to make just about any squad a mini-death star, and with the psychic phase fundamentally broken, good luck countering any of that.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It isn't anymore guaranteed than the save you can get with any other vehicle. Unless you're a sociopath who plays with little to no cover on the board, any vehicle can be plopped down in cover and sit there for the entire game.

People don't do that, generally because if a vehicle spends the entire match in cover its firepower usually suffers in some manner as a result.

Nobody jinks their serpents the entire game either, because why bother taking a Wave Serpent at that point. It's firing snap shots the entire game.

Even better, you get your cover save without having to worry about snap firing next turn.

Sure, and Tyranids infantry isn't fragile either. The Horamagaunts and Termagaunts I normally see have 3+ sometimes 2+ saves from Venomthropes and other shenanigans.

Tyranid are fragile. So are Eldar. That they can use special abilities and tricks to buff themselves up doesn't make that not the case.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It isn't anymore guaranteed than the save you can get with any other vehicle. Unless you're a sociopath who plays with little to no cover on the board, any vehicle can be plopped down in cover and sit there for the entire game.

People don't do that, generally because if a vehicle spends the entire match in cover its firepower usually suffers in some manner as a result.

Nobody jinks their serpents the entire game either, because why bother taking a Wave Serpent at that point. It's firing snap shots the entire game.

Even better, you get your cover save without having to worry about snap firing next turn.

Word.

True but unlike the other skimmers the serp will have a better jink, and it also avoids immobilised, weapon destroyed, shaken/stunned, explodes results. I agree that all av12+ skimmers are more difficult to kill with jink, that actually increases the point im making about serps NOT being easy to glance out.

Poly Ranger wrote:
3+. No - but it is guaranteed it. It is the only one I am aware of that converts 5/6 of pens to glances.
.

At which point its damage output is just laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
True but unlike the other skimmers the serp will have a better jink, and it also avoids immobilised, weapon destroyed, shaken/stunned, explodes results. I agree that all av12+ skimmers are more difficult to kill with jink, that actually increases the point im making about serps NOT being easy to glance out.

Again, the Wave Serpent is not worth its cost if it doesn't fire the shield.

Again, the Wave Serpent is not worth its cost if it doesn't fire the shield.

You don't really read any evidence in this thread at all do you?

Honestly, if you re really into eldars but dont want to be competitive, then why not look at this the oposite way and make an army that will have the worst units possible and make it very hard to win.
Im sure you will make a lot of happy gamers letting them win against an eldar army