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Bharring wrote:
Is it more that Eldar players are WAAC players now, or that WAAC players are playing Eldar now?

That is probably has a lot to do with it. Though, I have a friend who purposely played Footdar against my Swarmlord list of Nids. Like, seriously. He gimps himself because Wave Serpents aren't fun to him.

But other than that, I agree. I feel that WAAC players all flock to Eldar because of the easy wins.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DA could probably be a few points less, but then one has to remember that no codex is a vacuum and they still have excellent psyker support with their abilities and other elements of the army.

CSM psyker support is a lot better due to spell familiar , but I get yout point.

Since my last post's sarcasm went whooshing over people's heads in this thread, here it is:

Wow. I thought the facepalm would be a big enough indicator of sarcasm, but the hate here is strong.
I was trying to underscore Bahr's point that Dire Avengers shouldn't lose in EVERY matchup. Hell even banshee's can do OK as a counter charge unit...

My mocking was directed at the Schrodinger's lists people hate on, where the Eldar list morphs mid game into whatever is the optimal unit for that match up. Wah wha eldar Holofields and bright lances. Which the Nova winner had 0 in his list.

Chaos got hit hard by the nerf to the helldrake which was the main thing keeping them competitive at the end of 6th. The hell drake was scary with 360 torrent, but so long as you strictly stuck to LoS and angles (including vertical) it was at least manageable when limited to 3 due to reserves.

No it's because there is always more than one Wave Serpent on the board that we can say they can do all of that.

If you want to actually make 5 or 6 Wave Serpents jink a turn you have to have a good deal of big guns. So at most 3 or 4 jink, leaving 1 or more left to shoot.

It is because there can be so many of them that they can become whatever is needed. If the Eldar army was limited to three of them at most, it wouldn't highlight how broken they are. Instead people would realize the rest of the Eldar codex is pretty good too and MAYBE the cycle would repeat with another unit.

Quickjager wrote:
If you want to actually make 5 or 6 Wave Serpents jink a turn you have to have a good deal of big guns. So at most 3 or 4 jink, leaving 1 or more left to shoot. It is because there can be so many of them that they can become whatever is needed. If the Eldar army was limited to three of them at most, it wouldn't highlight how broken they are. Instead people would realize the rest of the Eldar codex is pretty good too and MAYBE the cycle would repeat with another unit.

My complaint about the Schrodinger's serpent haters is that they assume it has a bright lance one second and twinlinked guns the next. They pretend there are no objectives on the table and that eldar can somehow always remain 20" away from them, denying assault while having ObjSec. Whatever the match up, the ideal unit in the Eldar CODEX is somehow part of that specific LIST and in the perfect position on the map in a vacuum of consequences for getting there.

Eldar aside, if you don't have a lot of big guns, you are fielding a CC specialty list or a horde. Horde lists aren't supposed to shoot down multiple tanks a round, they're supposed to get in CC and specialty lists tend to have poor games when they get a bad match up. If you take a list that is extremely vulnerable to kiting and are only playing kill points (why?!), you are in for a bad day against ANY mobile list. I'm not saying the serpent isn't good, but it's not nearly as good as people on the Internet claim it is when you field it in an actual matchup on a real table with actual line of site blocking terrain, other units and, you know, the rest of the game.


If you take a fragile list, with no high armour, you are going to die against any gunline if you don't have the special ability to outflank/infiltrate or pod/DS in to negate that fragility. A tooled up Serpent is lot more fragile and less killy than an AV14/3+ cover save Lehman Russ variant with camo netting sitting in a ruin after all, much less an AV14 all around Landraider. The serpent doesn't get the option of having 50 bodies at 3 points a piece to bubble wrap it vs Legion of the Damned melta guns that ignore cover and guard the AV10 rear from CC, etc etc.

Hey guys I just realized why Morgoth has much denial about wave serpents. I'm new to dakka so heres the link to his threadWave serpents in 7th edition better or worse. I'm at home today so I have had nothing better to do than search his thread posts there hilarious you should read them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/602273.page#6977456

 Mr.bacon wrote:
Hey guys I just realized why Morgoth has much denial about wave serpents. I'm new to dakka so heres the link to his threadWave serpents in 7th edition better or worse. I'm at home today so I have had nothing better to do than search his thread posts there hilarious you should read them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/602273.page#6977456

Yeah, I remember that one. Mostly because I actually splurted cola over my face in laughter when he revealed his army of 8(!!) wave serpents and how useless they were due to jink and OS being useless. Good times.

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DA could probably be a few points less, but then one has to remember that no codex is a vacuum and they still have excellent psyker support with their abilities and other elements of the army.

CSM psyker support is a lot better due to spell familiar , but I get yout point.

Ghost Helm.

A tooled up Serpent is lot more fragile and less killy than an AV14/3+ cover save Lehman Russ variant with camo netting sitting in a ruin after all, much less an AV14 all around Landraider.

Much less killy then a Land Raider? The Godhammer variant? Yeah you really are trying hard but you really don't know what your talking about.

Ghost Helm sometimes protects from some perils effects.

Spell Familiar allows retooling failed tests. Which means using fewer dice on each test. Which means fewer perils and more powers per turn.

Eldar is OP and CSM are not, but Ghost helm is nowhere close to spell familiar .