From the Void- Dark Eldar Tactica for 7th Codex

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**Inevitable_Faith**

Inevitable_Faith wrote:
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.

There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.

Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"

So then you have what 9 units that are reserved and never score?

You're going to lose to MSU obsec.

Not much chance of you ever winning maelstrom either.

**Mushkilla**

Solar Shock wrote:
Yes, but if the objectives are on your side, he will just DS onto them and eat your units, if they are on his, he'll more than likely start his grots on them already. Objectives must be 6" apart, so it goes like this;

you place 1, he places 1: 6" away from that, you place one (could be anywhere - including far away), he places another 6" inch from the first, then you place another, he places his 3rd and final completing the square with your first 1 and all three of his. Thats 4 together minimum, if you place your other two close thats 4-6 in close proximity. a 10 man grot bomb has a pretty large foot print. His list includes 2 flyers who do nothing for objectives and a grot bomb thats almost 1/3 his army, he should be playing to its strengths, the ability to obliterate crowded targets with missiles and a 10 man unit that has 30 wounds with FNP and IWND.

Think of it this way; what would you have done had he had 4 objectives on his side in a 6x6" square that had that grot unit sat spread covering pretty much all four? I highly doubt you'd have been moving into go 'secure' them and get cards? you'd have sat on 2 and hoped to beat the 4? See in your game, you had no need to go to his objectives, you had 3 on your side, you had mobility and objsec. You could have simply sat there, his 2 min squads of troops weren't likely to hold an objective long.

Admittedly, mush uses only grots and talos (atm), in 1250 pt games, but he has yet to lose any game and has gone against serpent spam, Knight lance and some other tough lists. Secondly yes the game type contact lost does alter the tactics, but in reality his list is centred around the grots and flyers, both who excel at mulching tightly knitted units. Grots certainly dont want to have to move much and flyers cant score, why would he want to be spread out? also, wracks in the scalpel squadron have at most like 2 guns, they too don't want to be chasing units about. You could simply move and shoot, he could simply move, ofc in a spreadout objective game he was going to be at a disadvantage.

The grot bomb is a lot of points, but its not meant to be chasing bikes or vehicles it cant hurt from one objective to another, its supposed to be sat in the key location eating anything that dares come close.You played your list in that setup exactly as you should have, you secured your 3, then quickly removed his scoring units, then when his big bad slow unit arrived you spread out and capped the objectives, by that point a slow CC unit is pretty much screwed, at most it could probably get from one objective to another each of his turns, you mentioned you got ascendancy and supremcy, pointing out that at some point you probably covered nearly all the objectives. His 400 pt unit is now limited to getting to one objective at a time, instead of sitting on 4 and forcing you to come to him. You played to your strengths and his weaknesses, while he gave himself a hard time. Admittedly his scalpel whiffing first blood didn't help him at all, but overall he should have forced your mobile army to stay still by putting all the objectives together.

This is an excellent explanation of how to get the most out of large units of grotesques, and is the strategy I try to stick to with my current list. The only clarification is that objectives markers need to be placed 12" away from each other, however when you take into account that each objective has a 3" radius score zone around them then they are effectively 6" away from each other for the purpose of scoring either objective.

To illustrate Solar Shock explanation, below is an example from a game with 6 objective markers, with my opponent placing the odd numbered objectives and me placing the even numbered objectives. The green circles represent the 3" radius score zones:

The objectives 1, 2, 4 and 6 form a diamond around a piece of terrain. If the grotesques control that diamond (which they can thanks to no scatter deep strike and their resilience) the Dark Eldar player controls 66% of the objectives in the game. Any objective secure unit that want to score/contest them, leaves themselves well within charge range. This is how you force your opponent to come to you. It's a very powerful concept.

Another useful concept against objective secure is blocking. It doesn't matter if a unit is objective secure if it can't get within 3" of the objective. In the example bellow the Imperial Knights can't contest objectives 2 and 3 because they can't get within 3" of the objective. If they were objective secure they wouldn't be able to score the objectives for the same reason:

sweetbacon wrote:
zerosignal wrote:

I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.

What the Grots "do" is murder practically everything they get their hands on and control/deny territory. But they have to be positioned correctly to be effective. If your opponent studies Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, particularly with regards to objective placement, you may gain a newfound respect for these musclebound point sinks in your next game against him.

Agreed, grotesques are all about territory control and shouldn't be trying to chase things down. Here are the links to the reports if your friend is interested:

BR1: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Necrons - 1250pts
BR2: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Serpent Spam - 1250pts
BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts
BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts

Hope that helps.

**Solar Shock**

Ahh yes sorry, 12" from central points, poorly worded on my behalf. Mush you got any more games coming up soon? eagerly awaiting your next Batrep, almost finished converting up my grots and im literally drooling at all the butching they are gona do

**Mushkilla**

Solar Shock wrote:
Mush you got any more games coming up soon? eagerly awaiting your next Batrep, almost finished converting up my grots and im literally drooling at all the butching they are gona do

Got a game against white scars biker list this coming weekend. Was hoping for tau originally.

**Jimsolo**

Wait...can one unit control multiple objectives in this edition?

**Mushkilla**

Jimsolo wrote:
Wait...can one unit control multiple objectives in this edition?

Nope only one at a time, but you choose which. With tactical objective cards and a hand of three you at most need to score three in a turn, aside from cards like dominion.

You can however contest multiple objectives with one unit. Area control with grotesques is as much about preventing your opponent from scoring objectives with non obsec units and/or making your opponent sacrifice obsec units to score objectives. The former reduces your opponents card draw the latter allows you to score destroy X cards.

**HawaiiMatt**

What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.

If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.

**zerosignal**

Thanks very much for the explanations and strategy guys, this is really interesting stuff. I haven't been playing long so all of these points are very useful. I will try and make use of what you've taught me here in my next few games, and discuss it with my DE opponent too

**Solar Shock**

HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.

If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.

Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either

zerosignal wrote:Thanks very much for the explanations and strategy guys, this is really interesting stuff. I haven't been playing long so all of these points are very useful. I will try and make use of what you've taught me here in my next few games, and discuss it with my DE opponent too

No worries Zero, glad you enjoyed the game and clearly you played your list well, seems its your friend you needs a little advice

hopefully he'll give you a good run for your money next time.

**sweetbacon**

Solar Shock wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.

If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.

Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either

Yeah, I concur with Solar's statement. Just off the top of my head, I can't think of any possible Obsec (troop) unit I would want within 12 inches of a large squad of Grotesques. Maybe, mayyyyyybe, a Fearless 50 man IG blob could hold out for a few turns if the Grots roll low on Rampage.

**winterman**

sweetbacon wrote:
Solar Shock wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.

If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.

Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either

Yeah, I concur with Solar's statement. Just off the top of my head, I can't think of any possible Obsec (troop) unit I would want within 12 inches of a large squad of Grotesques. Maybe, mayyyyyybe, a Fearless 50 man IG blob could hold out for a few turns if the Grots roll low on Rampage.

Depends on the mission.

Endless war? I don't mind my units being close if the game ends. Whittle down the grots size mid game and/or assault to pull them away from middle of diamond late game, then jump objectives end game.

For maelstrom (which is all the batreps so far for mush) then its more tricky since you can't use end game trickery, but the same idea holds. You just have to sacrifice if points are at stake.

Also not all obsec is created equal. I'd assume he's talking about the really good obsec stuff like eldar bikes and/or MSU obsec . If its deck chair style obsec then not as much cause for alarm.

**KiloFiX**

Got wrecked by a Soul Grinder today.

Was playing only Coven, 1K.

Only thing that could touch that front AV13 was a single Talos and it died in the second round of Assault after only managing to put 2 wounds on the SG. After that didn't have anything else effective.

Planning to start running more Talos, even in smaller games from now on.

Just something to think about.
Not sure if even Grots would do well against Regular AV12 Dreads.

**Frozocrone**

You could take an Abberation with the Scissorhands? For Rending I think? That would hopefully get through AV12 and maybe immobilise at which point you're laughing since all your S5 attacks go into rear armour of 10

**HawaiiMatt**

Solar Shock wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.

If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.

Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either

Grots are in the center of the diamond, spread out to be within 3" of 3 objectives.
I'd gladly drop combat squaded marines 3" on the other side of those objectives. To move at one group, you move away from the other two/three.
I think MSU objective secure would give the diamond pattern Grot-star a rough going.

-Matt

**sweetbacon**

KiloFiX wrote:
Got wrecked by a Soul Grinder today.

Was playing only Coven, 1K.

Only thing that could touch that front AV13 was a single Talos and it died in the second round of Assault after only managing to put 2 wounds on the SG. After that didn't have anything else effective.

Planning to start running more Talos, even in smaller games from now on.

Just something to think about.
Not sure if even Grots would do well against Regular AV12 Dreads.

Yeah, I have learned to keep Grots away from Dreads and any CC Walkers at all costs. Outside of GK with Force and IK's, it is the one unit that can completely nullify Grots in CC as they can't hurt it unless they get Str 6 or Rending with a Scissorhand. And even then you're only glancing it on sixes. Squads of 2-3 Talos (or a Formation) with AT tail weapons are the only Coven unit you should engage Dread-equivalents with. Bringing multiple is also key, as you found out, because one Talos will probably die before it can take out the Walker.

**Mushkilla**

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Grots are in the center of the diamond, spread out to be within 3" of 3 objectives.
I'd gladly drop combat squaded marines 3" on the other side of those objectives. To move at one group, you move away from the other two/three.
I think MSU objective secure would give the diamond pattern Grot-star a rough going.

-Matt

Depends.

If you send one objective secure squad to contest/score an objective. Then it will score its secure objective X card at the end of its turn without me being able to do anything. Then it comes down to what I tactical objectives I have on my turn and if first blood has been scored or not. If I have destroy X , secure X (for the objective they are on) or first blood hasn't been scored then its worthwhile being dragged out of position and assault the objective secure unit.

If you send multiple units to secure multiple objectives at the same time then multi charge would be my response (depending on the size of the grotesque unit) as this prevents the core of the grot unit being pulled out of position and allows them to take out multiple units.

Finally in the case of my list I have redundancy, as I have two large units of grotesques that can support each other. They are not in a vacuum either as the four talos in the list are tailored for taking out chaff and msu object secure with their splinter cannons.

The game will play differently against MSU objective secure, no doubt about it. But my experience with this list so far makes me doubt that it will be the "rough going" you are making it out to be. Of course, as with all theoryhammer, I might be completely wrong in practice.

Hope that helps explain my reasoning, I'm sure I'll get some games in against msu and post the reports soon enough and I'll be looking forward to your analysis/feedback regardless of the outcome. Cheers!

**HawaiiMatt**

I haven't seen the Grot star in action, but I have seen death stars land in a diamond.

A buddy of mine runs a single cad of orks, with 6 trukk 'ard boyz, 3 MANz in trukks and 6 more vehicles as fast/heavies.
When his opponent dropped into the center of the diamond, he unloaded orks all around it. The combi charge really spread the death star thin, and the multiple 'ard boy nobz were able to do enough damage to not break.

I'm not saying you're doomed, but well played MSU had no trouble with the death star parked in the diamond.

-Matt

**KiloFiX**

The other problem I've had when playing Coven and using the diamond Objective placement is when my opponent comes in at the last moment with ObSec Troops.

That isn't to say the diamond Objective placement isn't effective, but there are certain situations that require moving out of it.

**vipoid**

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I haven't seen the Grot star in action

When I first read that, I thought there was some sort of Ork death-star I wasn't aware of.

**Solar Shock**

vipoid wrote:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
I haven't seen the Grot star in action

When I first read that, I thought there was some sort of Ork death-star I wasn't aware of.

Max grot unit and as many warbosses as you can fit in? 1 with DLS, 1 with Big Boss Pole, 1 with da head'wompa, then throw in 3 meks for challenges? Majority T3? hahahahahaha oh dear. Maybe a Big Mek with MFF too? for that 4++ invun, then a painboy.

That could be hilarious

**Frozocrone**

Thoughts on which list to take to a tournament I'm going to soon? Missions would be Relic and Emperor's Will.

List one: Null Deployment

Spoiler:

List 2: Firebase Support Cadre

Spoiler:

**lustigjh**

Frozocrone wrote:
Obviously Null Deployment is Null Deployment but Skyfire is a bit of an issue. I'm also undecided on whether to go CAD or RSR with the amount of Reavers I have.

I'd go RSR since it's unlikely your two venoms of warriors are going to want to sit on objectives and fight for them

**DaKKaLAnce**

Has anyone used the new wrack weapon? Ossicfactor(sorry dont know how to spell it). I havent gotten the new kit yet, But really want to use that new weapon.

**KiloFiX**

All 6 of my Venom Wrack groups have an Ossefactor.

Single shot but almost guaranteed to Wound, and then does another D6.

I like it better than the Liquifier.

**vipoid**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Has anyone used the new wrack weapon? Ossicfactor(sorry dont know how to spell it). I havent gotten the new kit yet, But really want to use that new weapon.

It's pretty good - the main issue is the Wracks themselves. They're really not cut out to be Elite units, and can't offer any ranged weapons to support the ossefactor.

KiloFiX wrote:

I like it better than the Liquifier.

So do I.

But, then again, if you offered me the choice between a liquifier gun and a pinecone rammed up my arse, I'd still need a while to decide.

**sweetbacon**

vipoid wrote:
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Has anyone used the new wrack weapon? Ossicfactor(sorry dont know how to spell it). I havent gotten the new kit yet, But really want to use that new weapon.

It's pretty good - the main issue is the Wracks themselves. They're really not cut out to be Elite units, and can't offer any ranged weapons to support the ossefactor.

KiloFiX wrote:

I like it better than the Liquifier.

So do I.

But, then again, if you offered me the choice between a liquifier gun and a pinecone rammed up my arse, I'd still need a while to decide.

Ha! Nicely done Vipoid. I have the same opinion of the Liquifier. I would argue it is the most baffling nerf in all of 7th edition.

As for the Ossefactor, the only problem with it is that Wrack units can only take one. If each Wrack could pay to take one, then I think Wracks would actually be useful. Pricey, but useful.

**Gamerely**

Had my first real game with Dark Eldar last night. Played against my friend's Blood Angels. I don't think it could have gone any better than what it did. The first time I played him I used Space Wolves and it was pretty much a one sided beating. This time around I only lost my scourges and the talos. At 1500 points not losing a single warrior OR raider against that many shots and meltas is incredible. Those guys on the steering wheel need something to drink after all those clutch jinks. Also, killing mephiston in CC in the first round BEFORE he even got a chance to swing back? That was fantastic. Last time we played he killed about 20 grey hunters with just Mephiston and his unit.

**vipoid**

sweetbacon wrote:

Ha! Nicely done Vipoid. I have the same opinion of the Liquifier. I would argue it is the most baffling nerf in all of 7th edition.

I think it's right up there with hellions losing an attack, and Archons losing all AP2.

sweetbacon wrote:

As for the Ossefactor, the only problem with it is that Wrack units can only take one. If each Wrack could pay to take one, then I think Wracks would actually be useful. Pricey, but useful.

I don't think every Wrack needs to take one to make them useful. However, I would suggest:

- Allow Acothysts and Haemonculi to take them

- Allow Wracks to swap out their melee weapons for some sort of ranged weapon.

As it stands, the problem is that you're paying for most of the squad to just sit back and do nothing. I don't think they all need ossefactors - they just need some sort of ranged weapon. Hell, let them have cheap (i.e. appropriately costed) Hexrifles - then they might have enough shots to actually accomplish something.

**sweetbacon**

vipoid wrote:

I don't think every Wrack needs to take one to make them useful. However, I would suggest:

- Allow Acothysts and Haemonculi to take them

- Allow Wracks to swap out their melee weapons for some sort of ranged weapon.

As it stands, the problem is that you're paying for most of the squad to just sit back and do nothing. I don't think they all need ossefactors - they just need some sort of ranged weapon. Hell, let them have cheap (i.e. appropriately costed) Hexrifles - then they might have enough shots to actually accomplish something.

I agree with allowing the Acothyst and the Haemie to take one. That seems like the best option. What I don't understand about the Ossefactor is why even bother introducing it if only one model in a unit that not a lot of people take to begin with can purchase one? God forbid that Wracks actually do something semi-useful in the shooting phase.

**Jimsolo**

sweetbacon wrote:
vipoid wrote:

I don't think every Wrack needs to take one to make them useful. However, I would suggest:

- Allow Acothysts and Haemonculi to take them

- Allow Wracks to swap out their melee weapons for some sort of ranged weapon.

As it stands, the problem is that you're paying for most of the squad to just sit back and do nothing. I don't think they all need ossefactors - they just need some sort of ranged weapon. Hell, let them have cheap (i.e. appropriately costed) Hexrifles - then they might have enough shots to actually accomplish something.

I agree with allowing the Acothyst and the Haemie to take one. That seems like the best option. What I don't understand about the Ossefactor is why even bother introducing it if only one model in a unit that not a lot of people take to begin with can purchase one? God forbid that Wracks actually do something semi-useful in the shooting phase.

Not a lot of people use wracks? Virtually every list I'm seeing (or playing) uses a Scalpel Squadron, Scarlet Epicureans, or both. For 15 pts I think the ossie more than earns its biscuits.

The liquifier gun, in the other hand, is a bag of crap.