From the Void- Dark Eldar Tactica for 7th Codex

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**vipoid**

As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?

**Solar Shock**

vipoid wrote:
As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?

Hey Vip, was that confirmed then? as I saw the YMDC thread... but after so many pages I bailed out of that one

Well my thoughts are;

Quantum only works until the first pen. However, DE in general have 2 AT styles. Single Lance shots/single High Str shots (blasters), or multiple haywire. The issue with lance shots is they are exactly what quantum wants, Low volume fire that can be negated (needing a 6 to drop it), whereas with increased volume you have a larger chance of dropping quantum and opening up the armour and allowing the rest of your shots to hit AV11.

To me it seems the answer has to be haywire, as quantum doesn't reduce its effectiveness. If lances main benefits (the lance rule) can't be used then imo they seem rather useless.
Thoughts?

**sweetbacon**

vipoid wrote:
As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?

Huh? When/where did this happen?

**lustigjh**

Haywire from cover would definitely be my answer. You need to kill Ghost Arks fast to avoid more reanimations but also because you're getting lit up next turn by 20+ shots at that range

**DaKKaLAnce**

Wait..The new quantum shielding ignores The lance special rule?!

**HawaiiMatt**

Solar Shock wrote:
vipoid wrote:
As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?

Hey Vip, was that confirmed then? as I saw the YMDC thread... but after so many pages I bailed out of that one Well my thoughts are;

Quantum only works until the first pen. However, DE in general have 2 AT styles. Single Lance shots/single High Str shots (blasters), or multiple haywire.

Odd, I run 3 types of AT. Melta, Haywire and SMASH!

**DaKKaLAnce**

Ok I read the forum with the lance and quantum shielding. Just looks like the same arguement from the last necron codex...Which was shut down with an FAQ that ruled in favor of the lance weapon.

So sounds like the RAI is the lance still treats it at AV 12.

**vipoid**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok I read the forum with the lance and quantum shielding. Just looks like the same arguement from the last necron codex...Which was shut down with an FAQ that ruled in favor of the lance weapon.

So sounds like the RAI is the lance still treats it at AV 12.

Except that the QS rule changed - so the AV is changed to 13, rather than getting +2 AV. The argument is that only one set modifier can apply and, since QS is a codex rule, it takes precedence over lance (which is a rulebook rule).

It might end up faqd the same way, but it hasn't been yet.

**DaKKaLAnce**

vipoid wrote:
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Ok I read the forum with the lance and quantum shielding. Just looks like the same arguement from the last necron codex...Which was shut down with an FAQ that ruled in favor of the lance weapon.

So sounds like the RAI is the lance still treats it at AV 12.

Except that the QS rule changed - so the AV is changed to 13, rather than getting +2 AV. The argument is that only one set modifier can apply and, since QS is a codex rule, it takes precedence over lance (which is a rulebook rule).

It might end up faqd the same way, but it hasn't been yet.

It is the same rule with different wording. It isa obivous that GW RAI it to be just 13 armour but not a solid 13 that cant not be ignored by lanced. Considering that GW has been trying to make the game more balanced, I dont see why they change the RAI from before. Just takes a little common sense.

**vipoid**

RAI is subjective, unreliable and, frankly, irrelevant.

RAW is all that matters. And, right now, RAW seems to support QS ignoring lances. Perhaps it will be faqd the other way, but I'm not sure I'd want to rely on every opponent just accepting your RAI interpretation. Especially considering there are obviously a lot of posters on this site alone who think the exact opposite.

**Frozocrone**

Simple, I use Haywire or Melta. I still use S8 Lance, but thats for 2W 2+ really

**DaKKaLAnce**

Well Im not too worried about what people on the internet say....My group likes to use a little common sense and RAI. So this quantum shielding thing doesnt really effect me. Its just silly people will argue and bend rules just to get an advantage.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Everyone is talking about these Wild Jetbikes and Wraithknights, and i started to wonder how Dark Harlies can handle them.

Using the Scalpel Squadron to beta strike hard, would a Jetbike centric army be the perfect type of army to pull the fear bomb on?

Mirror of Minds can instantly kill a Wraith Knight, Garg Creature or not, and Psy Shriek, Phantasm Grenade Launchers and the Archangle of Pain all ignore armour and cover saves. The Jetbikes are also effected harshly by the Death Jester, who forces them to fall back 3D6 in the direction of my choosing, so hug the board edge at your own peril.

Would this kind of thing work?

**Alcibiades**

RAI is not subjective. It exists in the minds of the designers (well OK so it's subjective from their POV

). It's the actual rule that they intended to create.

**vipoid**

Alcibiades wrote:
RAI is not subjective. It exists in the minds of the designers (well OK so it's subjective from their POV ). It's the actual rule that they intended to create.

But that's the thing - none of us are developers, so we have no idea what they intended.

If a non-developer is talking about RAI, then it is subjective because it's just what that person thinks or assumes the developers intended - which often flies in the face of what said developers actually wrote.

**Frozocrone**

Just clear it with your opponent before the battle.
Roll off if in disagreement.

Back to DE tactics? What are the best weapons against Jetbikes and the new WK?

**vipoid**

Frozocrone wrote:

Back to DE tactics? What are the best weapons against Jetbikes and the new WK?

I'd suggest the foetal position.

It won't help, but it will save time.

**Vaeleria**

For an mono Dark Eldar army I'd say..grenade launchers against the bikes as well as poison spam. Even Ravager with shadowcannons can put a serious dent in any biker unit.

For the WK, well, my previous answer to that thing was an Archoness with that 4+ Poison DS3 weapon and a harem of Lhamaen's putting out the hurt to anything idiotic enough to get to close to their raider.

Now however that won't work anymore, with them being Gargantuan. I guess mono DE will have to go back to Lance spam, wich wounds WK on 4+. Problem is just that Blaster are in great peril if they fire...if the WK doesn't die, then they get charged next turn.

But how is it with allies that are BBs?

If we go Harlies, Hero's path is my choice, not really that costy, with 2 Models in there a WK has to fear. The Shadowseer's ability to roll on Telepathy along with -2 LD is a threat, his fancy mindwar as well. Not to forget that he's a skilled fighter, adding him and the solitar in round 2 to finish a WK should work, as his attacks hit on 3's and he wounds on 2's, yeah, Fleshbane there, no poison. Only downside is that this allows Armorsaves and FNP, but well, to shred a single point it's worthwile.

Solitairs are perfect to pick up already grazed Knights, 6 on to hit and it's a wound, with Blitz we get amazing 12 attacks, that should be able to finish a Wk that has been crippled.

The Death Jester is the bike's mortal foe, forcing them to take a LD test with -2, as long as no character is in there it's measy 6, if failed run 3d6, off the board~ or into the arms of things they do not want to fight.
And even if they survive, next turn gather up and return, they're only firing snapshots that turn, so no hurt from that unit for a round.

Now for our Craftworld brethren, they have a nifty, sweet thing to answer to that 'thread'. If we go along with an allied detachment we get 1 HQ, Farseer for more Psy works, but also a crazy Autarch with Jetbike, Cloak and Shard of Anaris, we'll have to see if that thing remains and if the WK is a Character (if so, good, if not, drop that thought)

Smaller units of bikes on our sides with either Scatter Lasers or Shuriken Cannons work as well, 81 Points hunting 270, why not. Warp Spiders with their monofilament can put a dent into a WK, much more into Bikes, but on to my preferred way to deal with that:
Dark Reaper, vastly underestimated in the last codex, now they get a chance to shine, stuff 5 of those guys in a raider, granting them a mobile shooting platform with 3+ Jink.
They themselves IGNORE Jink...yes, ignore. Any biker unit out in the open is facing, in case of 5 Reapers, 8 Shots S5 DS3 Jink ignore on 3+'s to hit, as well as 3 of those hitting on 2's. And they have range.
Also, those guys can swiftly switch to blast 6 Rockets into an incoming WK, making them able to hurt and maybe repel the two main 'oh so op' units. Yes, they cost, but for that amount of firepower and that level of threat they pose it's quite alright....why can I see myself fielding 3 of those in the near future....

**vipoid**

Really, the solution is to use as much of the new eldar book as possible, and accept that your own list is a little handicapped by having to include some Dark Eldar.

**Vaeleria**

Not really, but I don't play mono Dark Eldar background wise from the start.

I wrote what I'd do if I played Mono DE, didn't I? Just the usual stuff, field as many lances as possible..

for a 1850 points list it's rather easy to gather 24 lances, and 91-121 poison shots, separated on units so that each is able to put a dent into enemy troops. I don't know where you see that as incapable of dealing with those 'threads'

**vipoid**

Vaeleria wrote:

I wrote what I'd do if I played Mono DE, didn't I? Just the usual stuff, field as many lances as possible..'

You're assumption is that this will be even remotely enough.

Vaeleria wrote:

for a 1850 points list it's rather easy to gather 24 lances, and 91-121 poison shots, separated on units so that each is able to put a dent into enemy troops. I don't know where you see that as incapable of dealing with those 'threads'

And how many scatter-laser jetbikes, wraithknights and wraithlords can the eldar player have at 1850?

I think you're either vastly overestimating our firepower, or vastly underestimating how powerful eldar's new firepower is. But then, you already did that in the other threads, so it's hardly surprising.

**BlaxicanX**

80% of your 24''- 36'' range poison shots are going to be wiped out in a single round of shooting- the inverse is not true if the Dark Eldar get to go first.

**vipoid**

BlaxicanX wrote:
80% of your 24''- 36'' range poison shots are going to be wiped out in a single round of shooting- the inverse is not true if the Dark Eldar get to go first.

This.

**DaKKaLAnce**

You guys underestimate the power of a 3+ cover save...

Trying being alittle more positive, This is a thread to help DE with tactics, not give up and complain about how you guys cant win a game because you heard rumors.

With the WK being the key threat (according to rumors) It might not be a bad idea to field a ravager or even a FW reaper.
The reaver jet bikes will also be useful, shoot him with blaster then charge the WK and HoW

**vipoid**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You guys underestimate the power of a 3+ cover save...

No, we really don't.

1 jetbike squad = 40 S6 shots.

Against AV10 - 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 40 = ~4.4 Hull Points (with a ~50% chance to explode)
Against AV11 - 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 40 = ~3 Hull Points

Which of our AV10 vehicles have 6 Hull Points?
Which of our AV11 vehicles have 4 Hull Points?

Is the answer 'none'?

Furthermore, if you're getting this cover save by jinking, then even if you survive (by some miracle) then you've still crippled your ability to retaliate.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Trying being alittle more positive,

Then show me something to be positive about. Show me something that indicates the new Eldar book won't be about as well balanced as the world's fattest man sharing a sea-saw with a newly-hatched duckling.

Show me something that indicates we can compete against this new level of one-one-upmanship. And, when I say 'show me something', I don't just mean blind optimism.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
This is a thread to help DE with tactics, not give up and complain about how you guys cant win a game because you heard rumors.

Has it never occurred to you that some battles may not be winnable? The aforementioned blind optimism only gets you so far.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
The reaver jet bikes will also be useful, shoot him with blaster then charge the WK and HoW

Even reaching the WK with Reavers seems like a dubious idea - since the new jetbikes will have no trouble blowing them off the table. And, even if you do get to him, your blaster is wounding on 4s and he gets a 5++ and FNP afterwards, and your Reavers' HoW hits are wounding on 6s in combat (which he again gets a 5++ and FNP against). I'm not seeing the threat.

**HawaiiMatt**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You guys underestimate the power of a 3+ cover save...

Trying being alittle more positive, This is a thread to help DE with tactics, not give up and complain about how you guys cant win a game because you heard rumors.

With the WK being the key threat (according to rumors) It might not be a bad idea to field a ravager or even a FW reaper.
The reaver jet bikes will also be useful, shoot him with blaster then charge the WK and HoW

3+ cover...
So 9 shots equates to 6 hits, 3 glances or pens, and 1 gets through cover.
Ok, so 5 jet bikes taking 27 shots kill a jinking raider.

Venoms don't get 3+ cover.
12 shots, 8 hits, 4 glance/pen 2 get through cover.
4 bikes kill a jinking venom.

Venom vs bike:
12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 kills.

It takes 108 points of bikes to kill a venom.
It takes 195 points of venoms to kill those same 4 bikes.
That's really a problem. The odds aren't slightly in the Craftworlds favor, they are stupidly stacked in the craftworlds favor. It would be like we're playing poker and the craftworld hand 9 cards and dark eldar had 5.

Pure DE vs any Gargantuan Creature is going to be rough.
Old Wraith Knight, we needed 9 shots to get one past the goalie.
New wraith knight, only wounded on a 6 vs poison and has FnP. Now we'll need 40.5 poison shots for 1 wound.
What do you think the point increase will be to account for the 450% improvement on survivability vs our poison?

-Matt

**DaKKaLAnce**

Jinking a raider does not limit my ability to hurt.
"oh no I have to snapfire a DL!" please...The main threat will be what is inside, and since jink does not affect the passengers, it is well worth it.

Reaver jet bikes can be a great solution to the WK, or hell even against the Eldar bikes. Maybe killing the WK is an option that is better left alone.

Assuming Eldar stay the same for the most part, It would be much easier to just ignore the WK and kill units we can actually hurt with our splinter weapons. Our bikes can match speed with theirs, and are much better in CC.

As far as rumors, its best you guys dont over react like every other internet try hard and just take wait until we have an actual codex

**vipoid**

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Jinking a raider does not limit my ability to hurt.

Jinking a Venom does.

Also, considering that Eldar jetbikes outrange raider passengers by 12" *and* have a 2d6 assault jump, have fun getting those raiders into range.

(This, of course, assuming they survive at all)

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Jinking a raider does not limit my ability to hurt.
Reaver jet bikes can be a great solution to the WK, or hell even against the Eldar bikes. Maybe killing the WK is an option that is better left alone.

By what possible measure?

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Jinking a raider does not limit my ability to hurt.
Assuming Eldar stay the same for the most part, It would be much easier to just ignore the WK and kill units we can actually hurt with our splinter weapons. Our bikes can match speed with theirs, and are much better in CC.

Once again, we appear to be forgetting that their bikes can obliterate ours from 36" away. Plus, they have a 12" move and a 2d6" assault jump. How exactly are you catching them?

DaKKaLAnce wrote:

As far as rumors, its best you guys dont over react like every other internet try hard and just take wait until we have an actual codex

Except that some of these aren't even rumours - they're established facts.

**DaKKaLAnce**

Did you forget that DE bikes have the same rules? DE can also move 2d6" in the assalt phase.

Also playing DE takes some tactics. Im not chasing the Bikes across the map with raiders...With the speed DE have, you can easily trap/corner the eldar to get close enough to another raider, it is all about position.

You are so worried about the Scatter lasers, you are overreacting about them. Just like in the pass, There will be a counter. All you have to do is fight fire with fire and the reavers can easily kill the windriders you are so worried about.

Field MSU of the reavers, all you need is one of them to get into assault and you have them trapped. learn to work around cut n paste units, a good tactic can go a long way.

**Frozocrone**

Would Razorwings work? Off the board T1 and Missiles are 48" range and large blast so sure to cause lots of wounds, even if Ap5...