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 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea see I liked my freakshow as well, but I really have trouble thinking of ways to combat that WK, he invalidates large Grot squads and taloi entirely.

I'll adapt as you said, probably finish that evil circus idea I was back burning in an attempt to save time and money on space clown conversions, but I guess they forced my hand hehe.

Worst part is I almost finished my Coven Wraith knight conversion but now I don't even want to use it. I hate using (to steal MTG terminology) power 9 choices.

The Freakshow lists can handle Wraithknights I think. The Psychic Shrieks at least will work on him even better than the bikes. (Or be more devastating, points-wise.)

There are lots of new challenges here, but I think DE have a good footing going forward, maybe better than some other armies.

Yea I honestly feel sorriest for Orks and the new skitarri.

Me poor orks! they are not looking forward to Eldar.... especially when they got shafted so hard on the walker front.... GMC.... now that's what the orks need!

Any notes on changes to the suncannon? I had intended to run a dual wraithcannon WK prior to this change, I prefer fun, fluffy lists and i'd not like to bring a unit no one wants to play. Plus I spent like a fortune on that dude and he's mid conversion.

I think a CTC, DA, Grot bomb, with good positioning you should be able to close off enough of the table that you are neutering their JSJ? Aiming to pen them in while the CTC absorbs the firepower, then if they boost over you hopefully with a good spread they won't escape CC.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea the sword and board WK will flat out rape a corpse thief claw now. He strikes at initiative 5 and will most likely get the assault off and with destroyer attacks your not getting FnP and generally going to lose at least 2 of the 5 before swinging back. At that point you won't have the volume to reliably kill him.

As far as I'm aware D weapons don't ignore FnP in 7th edition (unless I missed a rule somewhere). D weapons count as S10 for the purpose of calculating instant death (unless specified otherwise the scythes count as S4 for example). So the corpse thief do get FnP against the Wraith Knight, also the wraith knight will strike at I1 when charging through cover, so as long as the talos are equipped with iquor injectors they should make short work of it. I'm much more concerned about the double wraith cannon variant personally.

 Mushkilla wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea the sword and board WK will flat out rape a corpse thief claw now. He strikes at initiative 5 and will most likely get the assault off and with destroyer attacks your not getting FnP and generally going to lose at least 2 of the 5 before swinging back. At that point you won't have the volume to reliably kill him.

As far as I'm aware D weapons don't ignore FnP in 7th edition (unless I missed a rule somewhere). D weapons count as S10 for the purpose of calculating instant death (unless specified otherwise the scythes count as S4 for example). So the corpse thief do get FnP against the Wraith Knight, also the wraith knight will strike at I1 when charging through cover, so as long as the talos are equipped with iquor injectors they should make short work of it. I'm much more concerned about the double wraith cannon variant personally.

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

That's what the rules say. I used to think that FnP can work as long as Strength D doesn't cause S10-ID (so no go for T5 or below), but now I'm not so sure.

So that's stating;
for FnP to be ignored the destroyer weapon must have ID or the unsaved wound must cause ID. That correct?

Does distortion have ID as rule? The weapons are Str D, so count as Str 10, they don't directly have ID going from SarisKhans second quote.

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

So for me that looks like anything above T5 gets FnP.

No it's quite clearly saying you don't get FNP against destroyer hits or against an unsaved instant death wound.

It's then saying for instant death purposes (aka to see if you get double tapped by the destroyer hit) it counts as str 10. So the talos wont get instant deathed but they will have their FNP ignored.

Ahh yeh, sorry re-reading that and I don't see how I got it wrong!

Yea, it's pretty bad considering the WK is 295 and the CTC is 650. I know I can hug terrain, I have done it before verse dread knights but it definitely leaves you in the weeds literally hoping your opponent is stupid. It is not a reliable tactic since they are far more mobile, it's basically like he is auto pinning 30% or more of your list each turn. Not only that but there is no guarantee you kill him even inside terrain. 20 attacks, for 14 hits and 12 wounds. 4 saved from the shield then 2.67 from FnP meaning more then half the time he will survive with 1 wound. I know 2 of those wounds should be ID but he also can save those or you can roll a 1 on your d3 wounds.

A 650 pt slow moving CC unit should not have that much struggle to over come a 295 jack of all trades. and again that requires a terrain feature large enough for 5 taloi to completely hide inside, if your in the open with one it's much more tilted in his favor.

You all know how much I love the CTC, but the new WK is the hard counter to it unfortunately.

Could be worse. I've seen an entire CTC killed by a single, run of the mill Daemon Prince, in a single round of combat.

I think Instant Death in general is the bane of the Talos.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Could be worse. I've seen an entire CTC killed by a single, run of the mill Daemon Prince, in a single round of combat.

I think Instant Death in general is the bane of the Talos.

I hate instant death as a rule, it's very poorly designed. High point models should never be one shotted off the table, it dashes hopes and ironically is very uncinematic which is why I am surprised it has hung around post 5th.

Oh well, I'll just make a creepy as feth ring leader and sideshow clowns to scream at him and honk their horns until he falls over

Well, a lot of them are protected by either being Eternal Warriors or Gargantuan Creatures.

I can understand the frustration, especially when there isn't sufficient explanation. But I think ID from high strength just makes sense. Barring magical influence, it kind of doesn't matter how ripped a normal human (or Tau, Eldar, etc) is, if the damage from an orbital bombardment penetrates his force field or what have you, there's no reason the victim shouldn't be so much raspberry jelly.

Especially against armies that can field massed high-wound models or monstrous creatures, such as Daemons, Eldar, Tyranids, or (as of the last Codex) us, Instant Death provides a needed check. It's frustrating at times, but I'm not sure it's broken. (Especially in regards to Taloi, it's pretty uncommon, as well.)

Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.

If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea, it's pretty bad considering the WK is 295 and the CTC is 650. I know I can hug terrain, I have done it before verse dread knights but it definitely leaves you in the weeds literally hoping your opponent is stupid. It is not a reliable tactic since they are far more mobile, it's basically like he is auto pinning 30% or more of your list each turn. Not only that but there is no guarantee you kill him even inside terrain. 20 attacks, for 14 hits and 12 wounds. 4 saved from the shield then 2.67 from FnP meaning more then half the time he will survive with 1 wound. I know 2 of those wounds should be ID but he also can save those or you can roll a 1 on your d3 wounds.

A 650 pt slow moving CC unit should not have that much struggle to over come a 295 jack of all trades. and again that requires a terrain feature large enough for 5 taloi to completely hide inside, if your in the open with one it's much more tilted in his favor.

You all know how much I love the CTC, but the new WK is the hard counter to it unfortunately.

Factor in the shooting. 30 poison shots, 3/4 (BS3 twin-linked), 1/6 wound, 1/3 fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. An extra 0.833 wounds per turn. Yay!


Or ally in harliquins with neuro disruptor. Hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, no armor, FnP fails 2/3rds. Every 2.7 shots is 1 unsaved wound. That's actually pretty bad, considering it's 25 points a shot, with a 12" range. It's 2 wounds per 145 point troupe, more expensive if you give them any sort of close combat weapons.
True borne are the most cost effective high strength low AP shooting, but they are only scoring 1 wound per ~130 points of trueborne.
Venoms with poison vs Gargantuan creatures is wound per 219 points of venoms.
Pretty much our only solution is to ally in psykers, run Ld debuffs and psychic scream.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:

Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.

Dark Lance?
2/3 hit, 1/2 wounds, 2/3 fail FnP. That's assuming he's in the open and he didn't take the invul close combat model.
That's 27 dark lance shots to kill 1.
How many do you bring?

In an army that gets psykers as squad leaders with a power that heals a wound.
Just saying...

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.

If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.

You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.

Honestly the best option is a cast of players formation with the mask, and an archon with armor of misery in a raider with WWP. Basically scream at it, neuro disrupt its last few wounds then with a little luck force as many moral tests as you can on near by bikes through your other shooting.

I wish there were an efficient DE only source for tackling the problem but it looks like we either ignore him (not sure this is smart) or ally in harlequins or eldar.

Keep in mind we can take a WK ourselves now that he is a single formation. I hate to say it, but the best answer to a wraith knight in the game currently is another WK.

For me I am considering dark reapers, they flat out rape windriders and with relentless can get the drop everytime from inside transports and they can also help put down that WK if you need him dead after the first couple turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.

If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.

You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.

Yea the CC variety is also going to be the most allowed version since it lacks ranged D. Don't forget he still gets 2 independently firing scatter lasers. 8 s6 shots is nothing to roll you eyes at.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.

If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.

You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.

Seems Ranged D is the new black, but my own Dark Wraithknight is going to get all close and personal with a Glaive + Shield. I wanted it to be an unkillable solution to Imperial Knights and deathstars so that load-out is awesome to me.

Btw, if my math is correct, my 4 Raider gunboats and Archon's DT Venom would cause 1,6 unsaved Wounds after a single volley at full range. Assuming I'd be able to place all 4 Raiders within 12" from the WK that would be 2,9 unsaved Wounds. Not that bad.

Regardless, I'm using Eldar allies myself to plug holes in my DE army so I'm not subject to the same shortcomings a pure army would be.

Eldar or Harleqins bringing Psychic Shriek are going to be the best way for DE to handle bikes and WKs, I think. TGLs and PGLs will help too, but aren't as effective at taking advantage of the DE's massed Ld negatives as Shriek is.

Lets be honest, we were best off before allying in CWE but this release basically forced our hands. Being forced one way never feels good, it also feels crappy when your favorite army, DE, are more or less the handicap on the CWE allies you take

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.

If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.

You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.

Yes, I think having range D might be what more players would use(hard to confirm with the codex). If players do use him as a CC D monster, then I honest would prefer that. Means He wont be shooting 3-4 units a turn and I can just avoid him a little easier since he will really ony be able to assault and kill 1 unit a turn.

Ravagers with with DL are still not a bad option. They can fill a multi role for us. I will play test against my friend (who is a eldar player) and his WK and bikes. I will run 3 ravagers, 2 with DL, 1 with dissy's. I will update you guys on how it works.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Lets be honest, we were best off before allying in CWE but this release basically forced our hands. Being forced one way never feels good, it also feels crappy when your favorite army, DE, are more or less the handicap on the CWE allies you take

True. It kind of feels like the Imperium, Chaos, and various Eldar are becoming most efficient when fielded together. Tau, Orks, and Necrons are the solo armies these days. I hemmed and hawed, but eventually decided to just run with it.

Also, It would be easier to take allies; But im one who likes to take some challenges and not use allies. Against Eldar, it will be a uphill battle ,yes. But not impossible.

I pick ravagers because they can also fill a anti tank role for a all comers list. As far as everything else, I will just to make some adjustments.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Lets be honest, we were best off before allying in CWE but this release basically forced our hands. Being forced one way never feels good, it also feels crappy when your favorite army, DE, are more or less the handicap on the CWE allies you take

Agreed, I had always intended to build a wraith ally but that was more for fun and change ups. Making it mandatory as you say for sure takes some steam out.

Hey guys! I've been thinking about possibly trying out DE... can anyone start me off with what a competitive DE list looks like? (Just pure DE) I really have no where to look at since I haven't seen any placing very high in recent national tournaments.

TLDR: What does a competitive 1850 tournament pure DE list look like?

Start thinking about the Tantalus vs the scatbikes and all...

Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?

What does that list look like? I'm looking for a starting point for a 1850 competitive DE list.

 SarisKhan wrote:

Btw, if my math is correct, my 4 Raider gunboats and Archon's DT Venom would cause 1,6 unsaved Wounds after a single volley at full range. Assuming I'd be able to place all 4 Raiders within 12" from the WK that would be 2,9 unsaved Wounds. Not that bad.

If somehow they all get to rapid fire range...
12 S5 AP2 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 2/3rds fail feel no pain; .88 wounds from the raiders.
80 poison shots, twin linked. 8/9 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. 2.63 wounds.
12 poison shots (not twin linked) 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. .29 wounds.
So, 775 points of shooting kills half a wraith knight. Somehow, I don't think this is a solution.


I'm going to get one, as I feel left out of this whole LoW crowd, though I'm more likely to run my with the glaive or the suncannon, likely to run both with starcannons... because, reasons.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

Btw, if my math is correct, my 4 Raider gunboats and Archon's DT Venom would cause 1,6 unsaved Wounds after a single volley at full range. Assuming I'd be able to place all 4 Raiders within 12" from the WK that would be 2,9 unsaved Wounds. Not that bad.

If somehow they all get to rapid fire range...
12 S5 AP2 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 2/3rds fail feel no pain; .88 wounds from the raiders.
80 poison shots, twin linked. 8/9 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. 2.63 wounds.
12 poison shots (not twin linked) 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. .29 wounds.
So, 775 points of shooting kills half a wraith knight. Somehow, I don't think this is a solution.


I'm going to get one, as I feel left out of this whole LoW crowd, though I'm more likely to run my with the glaive or the suncannon, likely to run both with starcannons... because, reasons.

Yeah, not exactly what I would call a cost-efficient solution, but at least they're an integral part of my army. If I happen to face a WK at least I've got a chance to inflict some damage.

Anyway, I've got my own slightly converted Dark Wraithknight, so... Skyrunner Farseer + two min units of Scatriders and hey! I've got a competitive army that's still mostly (69%) DE!

 syypher wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?

What does that list look like? I'm looking for a starting point for a 1850 competitive DE list.

I honestly dont remember. I just know it was a beautiful army, and had the Talos formation and what looked like a few raiders(not sure what was inside). But I have a feeling the meta will shift with the new Eldar codex so I would hang tight and see who comes up with a plan to use DE in the new meta. Blasterborn in a venom seem to be the goto option for most list.