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 DaKKaLAnce wrote:

 syypher wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?

What does that list look like? I'm looking for a starting point for a 1850 competitive DE list.

I honestly dont remember. I just know it was a beautiful army, and had the Talos formation and what looked like a few raiders(not sure what was inside). But I have a feeling the meta will shift with the new Eldar codex so I would hang tight and see who comes up with a plan to use DE in the new meta. Blasterborn in a venom seem to be the goto option for most list.

Corpse thief claw, 3 razorwings, 2 single lamhaens in venoms for HQ's and 2 min warriors squads in venoms. Pretty army but kind of boring build to be honest. Could easily mix it up though.

Ok thank you!

The new WK is going to be a force to be reckoned with for sure. But easy allies with the eldar means also... ironically easy solutions to our problems. I like to see the full eldar race as an entire race... all three books as one! And corsairs from IA 11.

Pick and choose what you like to make it work for you. iMO.

Don't forget Covens, Harlequins, and/or Iyanden!

I think the hemlock might be the best tool vs a WK from the eldar book, between its psi shriek and two D scythes it should bring him down pretty quickly. I actually think those things are more offensive lol.

I've wanted to run a hemlock for ages a ghost plane? yes please! conversions are a go-go! flamepyre phoenix combined with some vampire counts stuff

As for dealing with scatbike spam. I hear the banshee mask now prevent overwatch and confers. So im thinking an autarch on bike with the mask, in a unit of reavers, charge in and tie them up, HnR, repeat. Not always going to be effective, but being able to prevent overwatch will be one hell of a party trick!

wyches who ignore overwatch? well that's what they should have done in the first place! Beaststar that ignores overwatch? hellions who ignore overwatch? in a huge blob for getting off multicharges?

You could really make some tau players cry when you explain that your large multi-assaulting blob which about to tie up most of his list is ignoring his army-wide overwatch

Solar Shock wrote:
You could really make some tau players cry when you explain that your large multi-assaulting blob which about to tie up most of his list is ignoring his army-wide overwatch

That is pure gold!

The hemlock flier might be our cheapest /most effecient solution aginst the WK. He will be shooting 2 D weapons at him,and can use Shriek to inflict more damage.

Stack it with Jimsolo's Freakshow list , and you will be inflicting wounds that only a Fnp can stop.

Had my first real game with a couple of gun boats.. with night shields. I had a lot of fun with them... one got blasted off the table, the other survived and was pivotal late game.

Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?

I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.

pesce5279 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?

I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.

I am with neither of you, my primary opponents all love template weapons on mobile platforms. Drop pods, flyrants and torrent flamers... Gun boats absolutely suck for their cost against armies equipped with these things. Pretty much every book in the game can splash this type of unit as well and honestly should. Your much better off 90% of the time using venoms for your poison shots. The best hands down splinter boat I have used is a raider loaded up with Sslyth, you can get durability, loads of firepower and a hammer counter assault unit in one stop.

 Red Corsair wrote:

pesce5279 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?

I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.

I am with neither of you, my primary opponents all love template weapons on mobile platforms. Drop pods, flyrants and torrent flamers... Gun boats absolutely suck for their cost against armies equipped with these things. Pretty much every book in the game can splash this type of unit as well and honestly should. Your much better off 90% of the time using venoms for your poison shots. The best hands down splinter boat I have used is a raider loaded up with Sslyth, you can get durability, loads of firepower and a hammer counter assault unit in one stop.

And a monumental points cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To clarify: for DE, you have to take troops anyway. To my mind, a Venom-borne squad of warriors is even more susceptible to the templates than the raider, since they have half as many guys to take the wounds. At least the squad in the raider can't be wiped out entirely by a single template. (And the force field doesn't protect the guys inside, alas.) While you do get more shots, on average, with the venom, those shots aren't twin-linked, and sacrifices the capacity for another anti-tank or anti-terminator weapon in your army.

The first couple template heavy armies fixed my little red wagon, that's for sure, but since then I've learned that cowardice is the better part of valor, and to just run from template bearers (most of whom I can outpace). Deep Strikers are a pain, that's for sure, but the fact that your raiders are the juiciest target is something to use to your advantage, since you almost certainly know who they're coming after.

The only advantage the venom has over the raider is the force field (a mediocre advantage at best--nice once in a while but certainly not something you can count on) and a higher anti-infantry capacity than the raider, an advantage that is virtually negated by a pack of murderous warriors.

I love (LOVE) venoms, don't get me wrong. But for troops, I vastly prefer 2-3 gunboats.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

pesce5279 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?

I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.

I am with neither of you, my primary opponents all love template weapons on mobile platforms. Drop pods, flyrants and torrent flamers... Gun boats absolutely suck for their cost against armies equipped with these things. Pretty much every book in the game can splash this type of unit as well and honestly should. Your much better off 90% of the time using venoms for your poison shots. The best hands down splinter boat I have used is a raider loaded up with Sslyth, you can get durability, loads of firepower and a hammer counter assault unit in one stop.

And a monumental points cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To clarify: for DE, you have to take troops anyway. To my mind, a Venom-borne squad of warriors is even more susceptible to the templates than the raider, since they have half as many guys to take the wounds. At least the squad in the raider can't be wiped out entirely by a single template. (And the force field doesn't protect the guys inside, alas.) While you do get more shots, on average, with the venom, those shots aren't twin-linked, and sacrifices the capacity for another anti-tank or anti-terminator weapon in your army.

The first couple template heavy armies fixed my little red wagon, that's for sure, but since then I've learned that cowardice is the better part of valor, and to just run from template bearers (most of whom I can outpace). Deep Strikers are a pain, that's for sure, but the fact that your raiders are the juiciest target is something to use to your advantage, since you almost certainly know who they're coming after.

The only advantage the venom has over the raider is the force field (a mediocre advantage at best--nice once in a while but certainly not something you can count on) and a higher anti-infantry capacity than the raider, an advantage that is virtually negated by a pack of murderous warriors.

I love (LOVE) venoms, don't get me wrong. But for troops, I vastly prefer 2-3 gunboats.

Well your breaking the number one principle for DE longevity, that is if you want to have staying power either go high toughness/multiple wounds or go MSU. Your claiming that Sslyth are expensive but per point warriors in a gun boat are more expensive for their durability and damage output. A gun boat squad costs you 80 for the scrubs plus 85 for the raider. 165 points for a squad whos best utility comes from being within 12" of the enemy which is the sweet spot for their template weapons to strike. Consider 4 Sslyth in a venom now, 165pts and dumps out 12 shots from 36" or 24 shots at 18" and the occupants still provide 8 T5 wounds with FnP turn 1 AND they are awesome at assaulting objective squatters. Lets not assume our opponents are stupid, most light infantry like guard vets, scouts, pathfinders or even lictors have stealth and will be in cover meaning going to ground can ruin our day trying to shoot them off that maelstrom point we need, assault on the other hand is the BEST way to clear them off. Thats something warriors suck at. For the sake of this argument I assume the DE warriors lack obsec since 90% of the time they're coming from a RSR detachment, this makes objective clearing much harder. using splinter racks your also marrying the raider to the occupants, instead of getting 4 objective grabbers your getting 2 for twice the cost since your almost never intentionally going to leave the raider. In 6th I was using them off and on, but the introduction of maelstrom and 'No Escape' sealed their fate for me personally.

If your using kabalites you want to keep them cheap and split your enemies focus. Put them in venoms and either use range to survive or DS them and disembark into terrain for long range objectives forcing your enemy to shoot down TWO targets. None of this btw even considers your soul fright strategy (which I agree is a fun one) making them and their raider yet more expensive and a bigger target but also less PGL's overall. I also love venoms with chain snares, possibly my favorite vehicle change in the new book since tank shock, unlike soul fright, can target ATSKNF.

Just my take anyway, this coming from a guy with 90 warriors and 7 raiders btw lol.

What's the best way to deal with a Wraithknight and Gargantuans in general (aside the obvious crying in a corner..)

 Frozocrone wrote:
What's the best way to deal with a Wraithknight and Gargantuans in general (aside the obvious crying in a corner..)

Adding some eldar ally with D-Weapons (Like WG with D-Scythe in raider with WWP archon)
In a pure DE list... I realy don't know. Are GMC fearless? If need a fear bomb could do the trick.

I think grots are still useful against a gargantuan creature, talos wich ichor injectors too.

Ichor injectors are not poison weapons, they have fleshbane so they still wound a GC on a 2+, the talos will also ignore the armor save. Any rolls of 6 have ID, which against a GC causes d3 wounds instead of 1.

9 grots[315pts] on charge will average 18hits, which will cause ~3 6's and 12 other wounds. Resulting in an average of 6 wounds unsaved before stomp attacks.

2 talos with ichor injectors will average 4 hits, since they have smash the Wk will not get any saves and with wounding on 2+ due to fleshbane and 6's causing d3 wounds there is a very good chance to outright kill a WK, a corpsethief claw mobbing a WK that had 3 ichor injectors in it would give a very high chance to outright kill a WK in 1 round before stomps.

Also reavers with rending are a good way to put some easy wounds on a WK, if it is already hurt from something a squad of 9 reavers with caltrops would average ~ 3 rends and 1 other wound to be saved from HoW, which could finish off a hurt WK pretty handily.

Blasters/Daklances are still useful. Wound half the time, ignore armor save. Dropping some blasterborn on a WK will see it lose 2-3 Wounds followed with some charging reavers or grots, or talos with Ichor= profit.

I think the key is trying to get your opponent to extend with its WK to do something, and then bullying it when its out of cover or unsupported.

Honestly I think corpsethief claw or grots are the best choice from pure DE forces.

GMC are fearless, so fear bomb wont do much.

Farseer, warlock, 3x3 bikes, vyper + FIVE WRAITH KNIGHTS is 1803. That leaves points to gets some scatter lasers on the bikes. I'd go with 2 w/cannons, 2 w/ suncannons and 1 with sword.

That gives the 3 on point invul saves, and lets the 2 in back get cover.

Between Invul and Feel No Pain, most of your solution will fall flat.

Grots are bad because they don't get Ichor Injectors, only the Talos have the option. Grots are wounding on 6's, which does instant death (D3 wounds ignore FnP, but doesn't bypass armor). After armor saves, you're looking at only getting 1 unsaved wound through. So D3 wounds. If Grots don't get lit up on the way in, or don't get face pounded by the Wraith Glaive.

Psychic shriek from allies, and MSU to limit losses is the only answer.

you are correct on the grots, I blame psuedophedrene on thinking they had ichor injectors.

With flesh gauntlets 10 grots on the charge would average 20 hits, 3 wounds. One would get through and cause d3 wounds, because they rolled a 6 to wound so all the wounds are ID.

However the wraith knight isnt rocking distort cannons and wraithglaive, so its either a big assault threat, or a shooting threat with stomps.

I would feel pretty okay with charging grots at a WK. On average they will still tear a Non glaive Wk apart in 2-3 turns and suffer a few losses. Coven grots with zealot would average 30 hits instead of 20, which is likely 5 wounds, 2 failed saves is 2-6 wounds on the first round. If the WK is double ranged D it will not be putting out much hurt outside of stomps. The wraith glaive, if the rules are the same is only hitting on average 1-2 times.

I would much rather see a WK than an IK as a coven player.

and corpse thief claw with 3+ ichor injectors would still tear a Wk apart in one go without abyssmal rolling. But then anything with bad rolling, will fail- even psychic shriek.

The part you're missing is that your ways of killing a WK involve getting into combat with it. You move 6, he moves 12 and ignores terrain.
If he's shooty, he's going to back away firing until he thinks he can take you. If he's melee, he'll soften you up first, then come in. He is hitting on 4+, with 5 attacks, striking first; + HoW and stomps.

Psychic Shriek, Laugh of Sorrows, or Mirror of Minds can both be good, especially if the target is in range of the Mask of Secrets or the Armor of Misery. Mirror of Minds is great if you've got negatives stacked on the WK, since it doesn't even care if the wound is saved. It keeps going until the WK beats the d6+Ld check or dies.

blaktoof wrote:
you are correct on the grots, I blame psuedophedrene on thinking they had ichor injectors.

With flesh gauntlets 10 grots on the charge would average 20 hits, 3 wounds. One would get through and cause d3 wounds, because they rolled a 6 to wound so all the wounds are ID.

However the wraith knight isnt rocking distort cannons and wraithglaive, so its either a big assault threat, or a shooting threat with stomps.

I would feel pretty okay with charging grots at a WK. On average they will still tear a Non glaive Wk apart in 2-3 turns and suffer a few losses. Coven grots with zealot would average 30 hits instead of 20, which is likely 5 wounds, 2 failed saves is 2-6 wounds on the first round. If the WK is double ranged D it will not be putting out much hurt outside of stomps. The wraith glaive, if the rules are the same is only hitting on average 1-2 times.

I would much rather see a WK than an IK as a coven player.

and corpse thief claw with 3+ ichor injectors would still tear a Wk apart in one go without abyssmal rolling. But then anything with bad rolling, will fail- even psychic shriek.

Yeah, this is yet one more reason why the DE codex is so frustrating. The only weapon we have that can sort of deal with WK's in CC, the Ichor Injector, can only be taken by Talos and Urien. Urien will get crushed if he fails one 4+++ and to kill it with Talos, you'd probably need a full Corpsethief to stand a chance which is twice as many points as the WK. If Grots could take Ichor Injectors, I think they would be a solid option, but obviously DE can't have nice things because GW hates us.

So. I am considering switching out my three ravagers for the three crimson hunters formation from the eldar codex. Vector Dancer, Preffered enemy flier, sunder and an extra str 8 shot per tank for about the same cost as a ravager with night shields... oh and a stock 4+ cover...

 SkaredCast wrote:
So. I am considering switching out my three ravagers for the three crimson hunters formation from the eldar codex. Vector Dancer, Preffered enemy flier, sunder and an extra str 8 shot per tank for about the same cost as a ravager with night shields... oh and a stock 4+ cover...

Yeah ravagers are not that great at all. Consider the crimson hunter is only hit on 6s too and has skyfire.

 SkaredCast wrote:
So. I am considering switching out my three ravagers for the three crimson hunters formation from the eldar codex. Vector Dancer, Preffered enemy flier, sunder and an extra str 8 shot per tank for about the same cost as a ravager with night shields... oh and a stock 4+ cover...

Yeah expect to see lots of those formations in tournament play.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The part you're missing is that your ways of killing a WK involve getting into combat with it. You move 6, he moves 12 and ignores terrain.
If he's shooty, he's going to back away firing until he thinks he can take you. If he's melee, he'll soften you up first, then come in. He is hitting on 4+, with 5 attacks, striking first; + HoW and stomps.

HoW from 1 model is obviously the least of the worries despite being at I10 and S10, stomps go at I1 so the talos/grots will strike before stomps, but yes an I5 wraithknight will strike first. If it is kitted out for assault, its shooting will be not so hot, if it is kitted out for shooting its assault will be not so hot.

The point you make about movement is very important, as most likely it can kite you around the table for a good bit of the game before it is caught. However an assault Wk not assaulting and shooting at grots is a waste of a WK. Some assault WKs will only have the shuriken catapults, so will only be shooting at 12" range, which is assault range for the grots or WK. The shooting from that on average will result in .33 wounds per turn of shooting. If they upgraded to say scatter lasers, it would average 1.2 wounds per shooting, so maybe would kill 1 before it gets charged.

Killing a Wk in psychic combat is possible, but even with stacking negative modifiers (which require you to be well within charge range..) Lets say you can stack up to -4 [armor of misery, and mask are within range] LD on the WK with a shadowseer and somehow none of the units you need to pull it off get gibbed. The WK is now LD 6 (10-4) Shadowseer is LD 10.

Said shadowseer has about a 1/3 chance to have one of the phantasmancy powers. Or can pick psychic shriek

For psychic shriek:
You roll 2 warp dice, hope one is 4+ (25% chance to fail) Most likely you will throw more warp dice. If you roll two dice the odds of periling are 3% If you roll three dice the odds are about 7%. The chances of failing on two dice is 25% on Three Dice its 12.5%
Some people play that witchfires being shooting attacks require to you roll to hit, since that is the rules... if you are playing in such a tournament you have a 1/3rd chance to fail this step by missing.
Your opponent can attempt to deny the power. This of course depends on how many success you have, and how many dice the opponent wants to throw, as well as any other special things like they have someone that grants adamantium will.

You now have to roll dice. On average you will roll a 10 on 3d6. The Wk is LD (10-4)=6 So you have done 4 wounds.
But wait.
as a Gargantuan creature it has FnP. 4 unsaved wounds * .33 chance to negate from FnP is now 2.8 wounds.
If it has a scatter shield it gets an invulnerable save as well, which would modify that from 2.7 wounds to 1.7 wounds. Lets be nice and say 2.

It has 4 wounds left.

not really very effective, considering you have a lot of tests which you have to not fail, albeit the chance for each one is in your favor, then it results in an average of 2-3 wounds done and your models giving the modifiers are all in shooting/charge range.

Mirror of minds is the best bet, however it is WC 2 and a focussed witchfire, the wounds can be saved through FnP and Invulnerable saves, however if you get the power to go off you essentially have to roll a 3 or higher to keep trying to wound. If you roll a 1 the Wk at -4 would need a 5,6 and if you roll a 2 it would need a 6 to end the power. This however does mean that there is a 1/6 chance every time you try to wound that the power is ended. The end result is on "mathhammer" average you would have 5 chances to wound, each one the Wk would get a FnP and possible Inv save, resulting in on average doing 3.3 wounds to a non shield Wk and 2.2 wounds to a shield Wk. Not much better than psychic shriek, but you can do it from 24" instead of 18" and given the 1/6 nature of it ending you have a better chance to actually have a "high result" and kill the WK than Psychic shriek or laugh of sorrows. I.e. it has a large curve of chance to do high damage, but like the other powers its average damage sits at about 2-3 wounds done after FnP and possible Inv saves.

I did not factor Inv saves into the assault results for grots because the Wk Will pick armor save over the 5+, and if they roll a 6 to wound [the only result that can wound] it is ID and negates FnP.

I did not factor in inv saves or FnP for talos, some of the wounds at str7 would not have Id and would be Inv save + Fnp negated.

I agree the talos grot solution is not amazing, but it is actually better than most psychic options as it has the weight of probability backing it instead of relying on passing a bunch of tests to do mediocre damage one time, and then most likely getting shot/smashed/strikedowned stomped out by a WK that a psyker and any possible accompanying unit may suffer. The talos will of course fare better as they get FnP and wont be Ided, the grots [with the exception of 1 result on the grot formation table] will be T5 and insta gibbed unless they have eternal warrior, which is possible if from a coven formation turn 5+ with certain characters in the unit. A charging Wk with D assault weapon will be killing on average 3 grots on the charge if they do not have EW or Toughness 6[most likely] before stomps, 7 grots attacking back, assuming no upgrades would see 11 hits, 16 if they had zealot. Which would be 2 wounds before saves, maybe 3 if zealot. FnP would be negated due to ID from flesh gauntlet so a .66 chance or 100% chance on average to cause an ID wound that does d3 wounds. If they have zealot that is an average of 2 wounds even with the WK charging, which is the same as the average for most of the psychic powers if they make it to the resolve step. If you manage to get the charge off with grots, not an impossible feat, they will get struck first but will only be looking at 1.68 ID wounds, or 2 models killed on average, leaving 8 with 32 attacks. 16 hits(resulting in d3 wounds at the end of combat average) or 24 hits with zealot (resulting in d3 wounds + 50% chance of d3 more wounds at end of combat) which is better odds than any of the psychic methods, but yes I give you it is harder to catch a WK in assault with models that move 6 and charge 2d6 than for a Wk to catch or avoid same models- but not impossible.

Honestly I think all of the solutions are pretty lackluster, but psychic mojo isn't really shining ahead of the others.


I think there are some other options too-

I think getting of fog of dreams, if you get the power, would be pretty rough on a WK.

It is WC 2, but has no to hit roll and is a malediction. The Wk would only be able to fire snap shots and would hit on 6's in assault, pretty much negating it as a threat outside of the single HoW and stomping.

It's an A-priority target. I think trying to find a solution which destroys it for equivalent points is throwing good money after bad.

I think a far more effective strategy is to treat it like the high priority it is. My current plan is as such:

1. Maneuver with the understanding that #3 is coming. Position or plan to minimize the damage.
2. Dogpile the Wraithknight.
3. Suffer a little beating from the less threatening parts of his army you ignored.

Killing the WK doesn't concern me. It's paying the price for all the attention you pay him; that's my real worry.

I think that's a wise statement jimsolo.

Often DE do best matching our worst against an enemies best, and our best at their second best and then bullying things.

WK's are honestly only a concern if you play with a lot of MC's and Grots. If you just opt for MSU they are not really as big an issue. Still an issue, but more manageable. It's the idiotic amounts of ranged fire the new eldar can produce at minimal cost that's more concerning.

 Red Corsair wrote:
WK's are honestly only a concern if you play with a lot of MC's and Grots. If you just opt for MSU they are not really as big an issue. Still an issue, but more manageable. It's the idiotic amounts of ranged fire the new eldar can produce at minimal cost that's more concerning.

It can split fire, which is a problem for MSU. It can deal with a venom or two on it's way to beat face against whatever it wants to kill.

My issue is the hard counters.
Wraith Knight hard counters Grots and MC's.
Crimson Hunters hard counter our flyers.
Scatterbikes hard counter everything else.
Normal Bikes are still awesome as MSU objective grabbers.

What's our angle? I'm not seeing how a tailored DE list isn't going to have an uphill battle against a Eldar TAC list.

-Matt