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 Jimsolo wrote:
Matt, it's starting to seem like you aren't really interested in Dark Eldar anymore.
Do you have any ideas on how to make thinks work, rather than why nothing will work?
It seems like you've been putting a lot of thought into it, so I'd be interested in any constructive insights you may have come to.

It's not that DE don't work, it's that CwE work better, for less points, with few exceptions.

Tau and marker lights really put a huge damper on DE infantry.
Loss of hit and run and big beast packs has hindered that build.
Mass D shooting neuters coven lists.
I see a lot of options for a Craft world with some DE support, but not a lot working as well the other way, and very little working without some ally support.

I have been wondering about an Eldar CAD with wave serpents as fast attack, housing grotesques inside. Wave serpents still provide decent firepower, and you might be able to soften up the enemy before unloading the DE payload. This would give you some survivability until you get a little higher up on the pain chart. The extra 2 guys that can be transported are important, as 4 grotesques don't seem to get it done, but 5 with characters, or 6 without seems like a good number.

Hmm. That could be nasty. Bit pricey in points. How much do wave serpents do in this edition? (At 5-6 grots, I'm wondering if a Webway portal might be more efficient than a WS.)

Could you take a Grotesquerie with WS's as transports? The uber-grots might make that even more attractive.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmm. That could be nasty. Bit pricey in points. How much do wave serpents do in this edition? (At 5-6 grots, I'm wondering if a Webway portal might be more efficient than a WS.)

Could you take a Grotesquerie with WS's as transports? The uber-grots might make that even more attractive.

Stock, it's 110 points.
Cheapest webway guy is 95, and does nothing other than be a webway.
For the points, I'd rather be in the serpent. You cannot disembark and assault, but you can't webway and assault either.
I'd even consider it with incubi, if you can get psyker support to keep them alive.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Stock, it's 110 points.
Cheapest webway guy is 95, and does nothing other than be a webway.
For the points, I'd rather be in the serpent. You cannot disembark and assault, but you can't webway and assault either.
I'd even consider it with incubi, if you can get psyker support to keep them alive.

-Matt

Add Autarch with Banshee Mask to deny Overwatch and, let's say, Shard of Anaris (Str 5 Rending, Fearless). A Farseer could buff with all sorts of psychic powers. Hammerhand would be fun for sure.

Hey, another not-quite-deathstar idea!

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Stock, it's 110 points.
Cheapest webway guy is 95, and does nothing other than be a webway.
For the points, I'd rather be in the serpent. You cannot disembark and assault, but you can't webway and assault either.
I'd even consider it with incubi, if you can get psyker support to keep them alive.

-Matt

Add Autarch with Banshee Mask to deny Overwatch and, let's say, Shard of Anaris (Str 5 Rending, Fearless). A Farseer could buff with all sorts of psychic powers. Hammerhand would be fun for sure.

Hey, another not-quite-deathstar idea!

If you're doing this - which is a great plan - then I think you'd be better off in an open-topped transport. If a scary combat unit pops up next to your opponent and he knows he can't overwatch it, every gun will be turned at that unit in his shooting phase. Yes, your opponent may be able to blow up the transport, but considering the possibility of being able to charge out of it completely unharmed, I think it's worth it, especially on models that hit hard but don't get hit hard.

I agree,

An OT transport would be very useful. Even if you didn't bring a WWP caddy. DS in a raider behind some cover/a useful position then even when he does use all of his weapons to blow you sky high your not likely to take many wounds with the incubi. If you had incubi in a wave serpent that couldn't be overwatched they'd become pretty high priority for leaving on your side of the board

So I played a game against my ELdar friend Saturday night. we were playing 2k points and he was using the WK(sun cannon setup) and WG with D cannons. And the Aspect formation(FD,DR, SH, +1 BS) no bikes this time.

As for the other things, He had rangers, SS , WS , farseer ,Spiritseer and guardians with a ML and Warlock and a Crimson hunter.

We were playing Maelstrom , Contact lost(the one that you get a Tac card for every Objective you control).

He went first and Nightfighting was in play.

Turn 1 Was looking grim. He was able to get 6 points right off the bat, and my units took some hits. My Ravager got a lucky shot at the WS and Pen and Exploded it, Killing 3 Fire dragons inside. and my venom was able to kill 4 WG(he rolled poorly on saves).

Turn 2-5 was just grim for me(so it seemed). My Reaver jetbikes were the only thing keeping me alive(on the field)
By turn 3 i have 6 units on the field and 2 man unit of Warriors. But to my surprise (and his) those warriors had the killing blow and the WK and won the game by killing the Wraithlord on turn 4 to win the game and table him.

The rolling gods were very cruel this game. I failed every single LD test I took, and only be cause of 1 shot luck, I won the game. If the Wraithlord and the WK lived, then I wouldve lost the game 19vp to 7-8. I dont have my list on me, But I can post it later.

DakkaLance id love to hear about how the units performed outside of the lucky/unlucky rolls. For example the hawks and the dark reapers? surely the DR's were pretty brutal considering they can ignore jink? and most of your force was relying on this?

How were the WG? painful? how did you deal with them? sit at range and shoot poison?

Solar Shock wrote:
DakkaLance id love to hear about how the units performed outside of the lucky/unlucky rolls. For example the hawks and the dark reapers? surely the DR's were pretty brutal considering they can ignore jink? and most of your force was relying on this?

How were the WG? painful? how did you deal with them? sit at range and shoot poison?

The reapers Did well, But I used my bikes to rush them, so around turn 3 I had them killed. I was using the RSR detachment, so that helped first turn. Most of my units were out of LOS , or had something to hide behind to provide a cover save.

First turn he shot the Raider I had behind cover and exploded it, killing 5 wyches inside. T2 he shot at a ravager but only managed to strip 2 HP but killed it later turn 3. My reavers killed them turn 3 after killing the rangers.

The WG were unable to do much since I killed 4 with 1 venom and the last remaining killed 1 model part of my Court. But was later killed by my void mine along with his farseer and spiritseer.

The Hawks DS behind my Objective near my board edge , and killed 5-6 mandrakes that were holding the objective. But were killed by the remaining drakes and a venom later on.

Overall my bikes squads killed SS,guardians, DR and rangers. The only reason I was able to table him was because of the 2 falling back warriors lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the way we were deployed, I was basically stuck on my deployment. He was slowly pushing me back and had 3 objectives at all times. The bikes speed was what helped clear his back field support, and surround him

If you could play again what would you want to take more of? The reavers sounded pretty effective, how many did you play? Do post your list if you get chance

How do people USE Reavers? The only two things mine ever do is suck and die.

I love my reavers! I rush them up with the catrops and try to Ty up and troops that can threaten my formation or to hit obj campers. I try to keep the groups low so 3-5 per squad, maybe two to three squads, of course they are only part of my fast attacks cause I almost always run RSR to add in my jet, a group of scourges and soon more hellions haha

So how are your Reavers not getting murdelated in the first round of CC? Mine have never survived two rounds of combat, ever.

 Jimsolo wrote:
So how are your Reavers not getting murdelated in the first round of CC? Mine have never survived two rounds of combat, ever.

With Caltrops and Bladevanes at I10, and then their own attacks at I6, there shouldn't be much left of whatever you're assaulting to hit back very hard. You win combat and sweep, or you Hit and Run out to charge in again and Bladevane them again. You should never sit in combat for multiple rounds with Reavers, their strength is in their Hammer of Wrath and the survivability provided by Skilled Rider when not in combat.

I deploy my Reavers behind BLoS so they don't get shot at. Or, alternately, they may be targed by one or two units T1, but there's so many Raider gunboats and other stuff around that the enemy simply can't kill everything. Enforcing (and confusing) target priority has been becoming one of my main tactics.

I usually circle the Reavers about the enemy during the first turns to get a good position. Again, the core of my army gets into a firefight whilst the Reavers get to hide... until they get the opportunity to strike and BAM! Rending HoW.

That was exactly what happened during one of my recent tournament games. After owning a Chaos Relic Predator they were able to charge a Biker Sorc and his meatshield unit of Cultists. Cultists vanished quickly and the Sorc required a H&R + second charge to strip the last Wound off him. With that, I scored Slay the Warlord, Kingslayer, and 2 VPs for grabbing the objective marker that was there.

Another game they rescued a poor Farseer that got charged by a unit of Termagants and a Carnifex (desperately needed to grab an objective over there). The Windriders protecting her died, but she made her 4++ and survived. The unit of Reavers that was just next to the fight charged and tore the Carnifex apart just with Rending HoW. They had the +1 Attack drug, so when they get to CC they wiped out the Termagants with 24 attacks at Init 6.

Long story short: move from cover to cover (preferably one that blocks line of sight) until you get to charge. ???. Profit.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I deploy my Reavers behind BLoS so they don't get shot at. Or, alternately, they may be targed by one or two units T1, but there's so many Raider gunboats and other stuff around that the enemy simply can't kill everything. Enforcing (and confusing) target priority has been becoming one of my main tactics.

I usually circle the Reavers about the enemy during the first turns to get a good position. Again, the core of my army gets into a firefight whilst the Reavers get to hide... until they get the opportunity to strike and BAM! Rending HoW.

That was exactly what happened during one of my recent tournament games. After owning a Chaos Relic Predator they were able to charge a Biker Sorc and his meatshield unit of Cultists. Cultists vanished quickly and the Sorc required a H&R + second charge to strip the last Wound off him. With that, I scored Slay the Warlord, Kingslayer, and 2 VPs for grabbing the objective marker that was there.

Another game they rescued a poor Farseer that got charged by a unit of Termagants and a Carnifex (desperately needed to grab an objective over there). The Windriders protecting her died, but she made her 4++ and survived. The unit of Reavers that was just next to the fight charged and tore the Carnifex apart just with Rending HoW. They had the +1 Attack drug, so when they get to CC they wiped out the Termagants with 24 attacks at Init 6.

Long story short: move from cover to cover (preferably one that blocks line of sight) until you get to charge. ???. Profit.

This is how I was able to get the Dark reapers. I Basically I was chain assaulting his units to get to the reapers. It worked out well since I only lost 3 bikes per squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the list I put together(Was not expecting this list to do as well as it did)

RSR

HQ-Archon with Huskblade,blast pistol,soul trap,shadow field
Court-2 medus 2 Ur-ghul
-Venom , extra splinter cannon

Urien

Troops
10x Warriors , blaster, Slinter cannon
-Raider ,DL,Nightfields,Splinter racks

9x Wyches
Hydra guantlets, Hektrix with AG
(urien goes here)
-Raider,DL with Nightshields

FA
6x Reavers, 2 Blasters 2 CC
6 Reavers, 2 Heatlance, 2 CC
3x Reavers , 1 Blaster, 1 CC
Razorwing, 2 DL, Splinter cannon.

Elites
10 Mandrakes

HS
2 Ravagers, 3 DL , Night shields
1 Voidraven, 2 DL , 4 Shatterfield, Nightshields.

This is the list I put together in about 10 mins lol

I normally don't like using mathhammer as the first diagnostic tool, but I'm curious whether or not my luck is just really bad, or other peoples' is just really good.

Assuming a 3-man squad, fresh out, charging a MEQ unit. You've got six shots, four hits, two wounds, .66 unsaved wounds.

Bladevanes give us 2 S4 hits, which have a 1/2 chance to wound (1 wound), 1/3 chance at a Rend, and 2/9 chance of an additional wound. So, .55 wounds.

Caltrops cause 3.5 hits on average. 5/6 chance to wound (1/5 is a rend, 4/15 chance for a wound otherwise) leaves us with .7 rends and .93 wounds getting through.

Regular attacks have a 1/2 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound, and 1/3 chance to get through. So 9 attacks with a 1/18 chance to get a wound through gives us another .5 wounds.

After all is said and done, the Reavers accomplish (on average, assuming they didn't have to Jink or suffer casualties from overwatch) 3.34 wounds. Not enough to wipe a squad. Then the marines get to counter, and if there's a sergeant in there you're hosed.

Even if you break the marines they don't run, so you have to either H&R, which means the unit you just bailed on shoots you again next turn and then charges YOU, or you stick around in combat and get torn into tiny, bloody pieces.

Did I make an error somewhere?

Ok, I dont let math hammer try to Determine whether or not a unit will be effective. I always "glance" it. Just look at it, and get an idea how effective it will be, Dont let the number confuse you. MMV, so you just got to judge it best you can. I look at my stats and what I need and if it looks decent enough, then why not give it a try. Very rarely have the rolls been statistically correct, so ive just given up on math hammer and just wing it and see how well my results are with my rolls.

Alot of players depend too much on it too much, and I feel that is more of a Con than pro. Dont over think your toy soliders, just play them and look at them as a whole. Hard to explain, but I just know it has been working for me so far.



Keep the bikes on the flanks and let them hunt units in the back field. Divide & conquer, etc.

Reavers are some of the best units in all of 40K. Jim - you're forgetting to factor in Power from Pain and Combat Drugs to their value. And I don't find that MEQ beat them in CC at all. I kill them on I10 and then what's left only wounds with 25% of its attacks. Then I get 5+ and FnP.

I run Reavers in six-Elf units with 2x Caltrops. That gives them enough killing power to slaughter MEQ, take (out wounded) MCs, vehicles, etc. Also I run Heat Lances on them sometimes (but not always). They're great at softening up targets before the assault or helping the rest of my list's blasters/DLs pop a transport so that I can assault the squishy insides.

Here's what I do... Turn one they all go flat-out and move into my opponents' backfield while the rest of my list rushes. 3+ Jinking Reavers are pretty durable and the pressure they provide gives my opponents some hard choices to make. This move makes my opponent shoot at my Venoms/trueborn/etc much less. Also this is a great way to run Harlequin Skyweavers (esp with re-rollable jink), just flat-out them with Zephyrglaives into your opponents' backfield with the Reavers and nobody shoots the Harlies.

Turn two I assault all the Reavers and Skyweavers. It's a massacre.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I normally don't like using mathhammer as the first diagnostic tool, but I'm curious whether or not my luck is just really bad, or other peoples' is just really good.

Assuming a 3-man squad, fresh out, charging a MEQ unit. You've got six shots, four hits, two wounds, .66 unsaved wounds.

Bladevanes give us 2 S4 hits, which have a 1/2 chance to wound (1 wound), 1/3 chance at a Rend, and 2/9 chance of an additional wound. So, .55 wounds.

Caltrops cause 3.5 hits on average. 5/6 chance to wound (1/5 is a rend, 4/15 chance for a wound otherwise) leaves us with .7 rends and .93 wounds getting through.

Regular attacks have a 1/2 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound, and 1/3 chance to get through. So 9 attacks with a 1/18 chance to get a wound through gives us another .5 wounds.

After all is said and done, the Reavers accomplish (on average, assuming they didn't have to Jink or suffer casualties from overwatch) 3.34 wounds. Not enough to wipe a squad. Then the marines get to counter, and if there's a sergeant in there you're hosed.

Even if you break the marines they don't run, so you have to either H&R, which means the unit you just bailed on shoots you again next turn and then charges YOU, or you stick around in combat and get torn into tiny, bloody pieces.

Did I make an error somewhere?

Your math sounds fine, I think the issue is you're assuming a 3-man Reaver squad assaulting a 5 man Tac squad. I don't know of anyone who runs 3 Reavers. If you're taking Caltrops over Heat Lances, you're taking 6 and getting 2 Caltrops. So just double your results from before and you'll be surprised at how much damage they will do. Mercury14 was correct, the Combat Drugs table and Power from Pain both make them even better. How he runs his bikes is my exact tactic as well. Turbo-boost right where you want to assault, and take your 3+ jink. You're getting a minimum of 6+ FNP if you hit assault turn 2, and 5+ FNP every round after that.

3-man Reaver squad with a single Cluster Caltrop costs 63 pts. What did you expect of such a tiny unit? Double that, flank the enemy/flat-out into B-LoS, 3+ Jink if need be and assault.

Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

I had a ton of luck with my jet bike army.
It's:
Autarch on bike with laser lance and mask
4x3 scatter laser bikes
5 wraith guard in a serpent
4x6 reavers with 2 caltrops
2x5 scourage with haywire
10 Lhamaean in raider
2x5 warriors in venoms

Turn 1, reavers, autarch, serpent and raider all went flank out up a flank.
Opponents turn 1.
He's he's got 34 poison shots and 48 S6 shots coming in from the front, and 5 very serious assault units about to roll down his flank. The remaining 3rd of his force is out of range due to the speed bikes. He could run his death star toward the reavers, but then he's got to contest with 5 Strength D shots, and 30 attacks with 2+ poison and lethal dose. If he brings in any reserves near the reavers they'll be at risk of assault.

It put my opponent into a position with some very hard decision to make, and very little time to react.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

So I keep hearing, but mine consistently just get killed. Maybe I just have bad luck with them.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

So I keep hearing, but mine consistently just get killed. Maybe I just have bad luck with them.

Maybe you don't have enough.
Maybe you need another more pressing target, like 3 incubi in a night shielded raider, 11 to 13 S4 AP2 attacks usually hitting on 3+ for a 70 point unit.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

So I keep hearing, but mine consistently just get killed. Maybe I just have bad luck with them.

Maybe you don't have enough.
Maybe you need another more pressing target, like 3 incubi in a night shielded raider, 11 to 13 S4 AP2 attacks usually hitting on 3+ for a 70 point unit.

Im guessing this includes a klaivex?

So here's a quick question.

Aside magnets (Which I intend to do for this flyer) what do you all have most success with when using a Razorwing?

I built my last one as Splinter Rifle, Dark Lance and Monoscythe Missiles. With the one I got to supplement it, I'm thinking of using Necrotoxin and Dark Lance/Splinter Rifles? Is that good?
If only for Wraithknights...

 Frozocrone wrote:
With the one I got to supplement it, I'm thinking of using Necrotoxin and Dark Lance/Splinter Rifles? Is that good?
If only for Wraithknights...

I run both of my RWJFs in that configuration. DLs to shoot down enemy fliers and force Flyrants to Jink. Necrotoxin Missiles help against blobs of high Toughness models. I also add NS, 3+ Jink helps them survive the enemy response after they come so they may return and dish out more damage later.

I run mine with Splinter cannon and DL, with the monoscythe. I have started not using Night shields anymore. But I feel like they are no longer needed.

I won't lie, I run mine stock more often than not. I have a really hard time justifying upgrades it seems. My usual strategy is to fire 2 dissies and 2 missiles when they enter, then I can still be enough of a threat to another unit a different turn. I always figure "if it's debatable which way to run them anyway, may as well pick the cheaper option".

The two lances rarely impress me for antiarmor options because it's not consistent enough to count on for anything. If I want to kill a tank, I'll take something I can count on to get the job done like a unit of firedragons.