Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
I run mine with Splinter cannon and DL, with the monoscythe. I have started not using Night shields anymore. But I feel like they are no longer needed.

Whatever floats your boat. From my personal experience I found that passing Jink saves on 3+ rather than 4+ saved my sorry ass so many times I don't leave Commorragh without NS.

Well the way I look at it, If I jink, then the fighter is going to be useless. My meta is against FMC and Crimson hunters, So They will keep shooting at me and I will keep jinking. That is why I usually dont put NS on my Fliers.

But you can just fly off the board after you jink, then come in the next turn and shoot at full bs

DirtyDeeds wrote:
But you can just fly off the board after you jink, then come in the next turn and shoot at full bs

Yes I could, I did that last game we played and it worked out. I was just trying to say a few points and make my list on a budget . When I have the extra points, I usually go ahead and put the NS on.

i run Dark Lances for hunting other flyers as well. No upgrade on the chin gun, no defensive upgrades. If I have the points, I'll get some Shatterfield Missiles, just because they'll also wound on a 2+ for most things, have shred, and can damage vehicles because of the S7.

My typical tactic is to fly on the board and unload all 4 missiles immediately, typically crushing whatever unit they hit. That way if my opponent shoots at me next turn I've gotten my money's worth out of it if it gets blown out of the sky.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I won't lie, I run mine stock more often than not. I have a really hard time justifying upgrades it seems. My usual strategy is to fire 2 dissies and 2 missiles when they enter, then I can still be enough of a threat to another unit a different turn. I always figure "if it's debatable which way to run them anyway, may as well pick the cheaper option".

The two lances rarely impress me for antiarmor options because it's not consistent enough to count on for anything. If I want to kill a tank, I'll take something I can count on to get the job done like a unit of firedragons.

I agree, I find having 6 s5 ap2 shots a SC and two missiles can clear anything I want off from where I want. The Two DL's usually mean I am not using my missile payload the way I should, or they aren't helping as much. 2 odd DL's isn't worth that cost IMO.

Ooh ok. I was thinking about Voidravens as my flyers and AA while reconstructing my list..

I've used all my Fast Attack on Scourge and Venoms for the Heroes Path formation xD Has anyone used the bombers effectively?

I have been toying with this list ...

Real Space Raiders - 1850

Llhamaen: Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons:

3x 5 Kabalite Warriors: Blaster, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons:

4 Razorwing Jetfighters: 2 TL Dark Lances, 4 Monoscythe Missiles:
2 Razorwing Jetfighters: 2 TL Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, 4 Monoscythe Missiles:

3 Voidraven Bombers: Two Void Lances, Void Bomb, Nightshields:

10 Splinter Cannons
12 Dark Lances
24 Monoscthe Missiles
6 Void Lances
3 Void Bombs
3 Blasters

You can knock lances but when you spam enough they are quite good. I do like my void ravens a lot. I take the two razors with SCs just for FMCs and sometimes they are handy against ground units.

Is this list competitive ... not really. It is rather 'hit or miss' by nature. No ObSec so I need to kill everything. Not that it isn't possible by turn four/five. I generally lose a few venoms turn one even with the hunter boost from real space.

That said you can field the venoms empty and keep the warriors behind LoS if the terrain is good. There are a few options. Bottom line is that DE flyers are way better en masse. Of course this is nothing new. Void ravens are just fine in this list.

Now specifically - a void raven with FF is just more durable then a razorwing. Don't think that AV11 over AV10 is a small difference. It is enough to keep the void raven flying. And its lance is pretty darn potent. S9 AP2 means you are penetrating more often. It is really that simple. And the S9 blast when you are flying off is nothing to sneeze at.

Notice also that I forgo any extra missiles on the void ravens. While nice I would rather keep the cost down. I have plenty of AI in the razors anyway. However, if I was not using razors I would add two shatterfields to the load out.

Now I played this list twice. I've never gone to any major event with it. So take this with a grain of salt. I have played razors and bombers though more often.

 felixcat wrote:
Now specifically - a void raven with FF is just more durable then a razorwing. Don't think that AV11 over AV10 is a small difference. It is enough to keep the void raven flying. And its lance is pretty darn potent. S9 AP2 means you are penetrating more often. It is really that simple. And the S9 blast when you are flying off is nothing to sneeze at.

Uhm, that used to be the case in the 5th Edition Codex. In 7th Edition, Voidraven has AV 10 and access to NS, which grants Stealth rather than decreasing the range of enemy weapons. No FF.

So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

The one that comes with grotesques.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

The one that comes with grotesques.

Hardy har. I'm finishing modeling my DE to paint, and although the wyches won't get PLAYED this edition, if I do break them out for some reason, I'd like to know I have the most viable weapon on them.

I'd assume it'd still be hydra gauntlets, but my math skills are fuzzy at best.

No upgrades, just more wyches. All the current wych weapons suck for their cost.

 Red Corsair wrote:
No upgrades, just more wyches. All the current wych weapons suck for their cost.

Ok...I'm not looking to compare them to other units, or bare wyches. All I want to know is which, among the three Wych weapons, is mathematically the best, if any?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
No upgrades, just more wyches. All the current wych weapons suck for their cost.

Ok...I'm not looking to compare them to other units, or bare wyches. All I want to know is which, among the three Wych weapons, is mathematically the best, if any?

Well, I guess I don't see the point really since all 3 are kind of bad. Personally I like the shardnet and impaler since to me it fits their gladiatorial background the best and I find the model looks the coolest. I wasn't trying to be annoying, I just don't see the point in splitting hairs between 3 suboptimal options. just take your favorite.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

The one that comes with grotesques.

Hardy har. I'm finishing modeling my DE to paint, and although the wyches won't get PLAYED this edition, if I do break them out for some reason, I'd like to know I have the most viable weapon on them.

I'd assume it'd still be hydra gauntlets, but my math skills are fuzzy at best.

I think I found the best option for my wyches.
Mine will have 2 power swords, 4 chain swords, 6 shuriken pistols, and 2 meltaguns; all for only 72 points; then because that feels too cheap, I'll add a warlock with a spear (converted from mandrakes).
6" battle focus is just awesome, even on guardians.

All jokes aside jimsolo I think the razorflails are better one the charge, more attacks with more re-rolls is great but the hydra gauntlets are best after the charge. It also depends on what you are fighting of course. Hydra/flails are both neck in neck I feel and the shardnet and impaler are the least viable option.

Due to the way the wych boxes are packaged however I will have one wych unit with gauntlets, one with flails and my bloodbrides with have impalers.

Sorry if this isn't entirely helpful but its my take on it. My math is horrible btw so I don't even attempt it lol.

I'm thinking Hydra Gauntlets are probably the best. Wyches are WS4 and Str3 so they hit more easily than they wound - therefore better to have a re-roll on the wound roll than the hit roll I reckon.

I always go hydra for the exact reason given, wyches will hit, it's wounding that's annoying so hydra gauntlets fix that. As for all the options being terrible and people "just not seeing the point" well they don't use wyches very often, sure without all haywire grenades they are not as decent as they used to be but I still like to use a 10 man in a raider cause my opponent doesn't know that so they poor fire at them scared of cc. I'll use them too cc what ever my warrior boats/venoms don't kill with shooting and it works really well.

One thing I love about wyches is the 4++ in cc. They are a relatively cheap unit that you can throw at an enemy MC or high str/ap low number of attacks enemy and they can tarpit them quite nicely.

My math might be way off but one reason I like the razorflails is that assuming you face a ws4 opponent you have a 50% chance to hit, with re-rolls that makes it 75% chance to hit. Since rolling to hit happens before rolling to wound you can't re-roll wounds on failed to hit rolls so the flails help you right out the gate. I'm not arguing that they are better by any means, str3 is still terrible and re-roll to wound greatly helps that, I just don't see the flails nearly as useless as some people seem to perceive them.

I don't think that the Razorflails are useless, it's just that they aren't as good as the Gauntlets. (I mean, I'd still take them if they were the only option.)

But yeah, let's not confuse this academic sidebar with a discussion of whether or not wyches suck. The jury's in: they do.

But I've been accused of being TFG and making cheesy lists a couple of times, so I thought I would shoot myself in the foot and make friendly lists with sub-par units. I just can't bring myself, I guess, to permanently mar my miniatures with sub-par equipment.

Jim ive never seen you come up with a cheesy list ever, most lists I've seen from you are fluff orientated, or around a certain trick, like the LD stuff. Just because you then make a strong list utilising a cool idea doesn't make it cheesy

But then maybe secretly your just an elder player! with all your serpents and wraithknights! GRR you make me so mad!

I like solosam's idea, take some wyches that they either overestimate or underestimate

Confusion might be the best bet.
3x5 wyches, each with a different wych weapon.
Then 2x9 wyches, one with jain zar, the other with karandas.

Try and distract the opponent with how awesome those wych weapons are...

How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

1. Ally an Autarch Skyrunner with a Banshee Mask.
2. Cancel Overwatch.
3. Rape.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

1) Don't get into combat
2) Multi-charge since everything is going to overwatch (might as well tie up as many units as possible)
3) Banshee Masks
4) Maximum Threat Overlord (one unit will get shot to bits, bring out five to six and suddenly it's not as bad).
5) Force things to go to ground, then charge.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

Tau is a tough army...But Theres isnt really too much you can do. Soften them up a little before assault.

But honestly sounds like you just had bad rolling and he had great rolling.

or take a lone beast, charge that in first, if they overwatch they can't overwatch again. If they don't... well a unit in combat can't overwatch (and I assume that means the other tau units can't either? they can't elect to overwatch without the primary right? dont know tau well).

A few beasts can be only around 50pts, they can move and keep up with bikes reasonably well. They will take away fire if the enemy realises what trick is coming, they will eat overwatch if he doesn't.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

Another option is to break units out of the 6" bubbles of each other. I find that many units can be knocked out of supporting fire range by inflicting a couple casualties on the right side. Venoms and other long range guns are great for doing this.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

1. Ally an Autarch Skyrunner with a Banshee Mask.
2. Cancel Overwatch.
3. Rape.

This for sure, if you multi charge these in first anything thats in combat cant overwatch. Start piling in and taking slaves. The only foil I see against the massive tau overwatch would be kroot bubblewrap but as other posters have said, venoms are perfect for poking holes.