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DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Huh?

That is the appropriate reaction to have, yes.

I get the feeling you're trying to make some kind of witty commentary, but I'm just not picking up what you're putting down. What do Space Marine tanks have to do with the list that was posted?

It was off topic, but if you take two Demi Companies (SM Decurion) from the new Space Marine Codex, then you can take Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods for free.

Back on topic, those lists could work, but I do think that cramming an Aspect Host at such a low point level is PROBABLY hampering you. However, BS 5 shooty bits are never easy to pass up. Just remember that the Fire Dragons cannot Run and Shoot if the Archon is still in the squad. Maybe put them in a Raider instead? It's cheaper and it allows the squad to remain safely embarked in a vehicle AND shoot. It also allows you to bypass an Imperial Knight's shield if you place the vehicle at one of the cross sections to it's shield.

Thanks. I'd planned on keeping the archon in the wave serpent and just disembark the firedragons, since I assume I'd use him as my warlord, so wave serpent would be better at keeping him safe than a raider?

Didn't know about the possible void shield bypass when shooting from the transport tho :O

Hmm Seems to me you have two choices;
1)Archon with WWP and dragons in a serpent, DSing in, disembark and then shooting at whatever it is you want dead.
2)Archon with dragons in raider DSing in and killing whatever it is you want dead. Benefits being the raider is OT so you can shoot from any point on the vehicle, compared with the serpent which is now more than likely facing backwards? As you disembark from the rear.


As for your Warlord issue; Yeh he is safer inside a serpent than a raider. But you aren't in a serpent. You disembarked to shoot remember Highly likely the turn the dragons arrive, in your opponents turn he's going to wipe them off the table. If you do the job in a raider you don't have to disembark, so he's actually got another layer of protection compared with the serpent.

Secondly, personally, (don't know what everyone else would do) but if I did disembark from the serpent or have the raider get wrecked, with a shadowfield you could actually have the archon tank for the dragons; yeh he might die, but I would be willing to suggest that the wounds saved from the dragons would mean that they could either hop back into the serpent (or the raider if you disembarked) and do some more damage next turn. Not sure Archon > Firedragons in terms of use post the initial WWP DS and melta.

Any more experienced players willing to chime in on this;
Go in a raider, Archon WWP DS, disembark, melta your chosen unit, have archon tank the incoming fire next turn, Re-embark, move up and shoot another unit?
(by disembarking you give yourself the chance of having the raider survive his return fire, as he'd focus the dragons I would assume) - On a side note, if the raider did get blown up, have the archon leave the unit, then on the following turn your dragons can Battle focus, giving them quite a large threat range anyway.

I go the Raider route. It's fairly effective at wiping 1-2 units, although it also draws a LOT of enemy fire. If you use that to your advantage it's a great pick.

Solar Shock wrote:
Hmm Seems to me you have two choices;
1)Archon with WWP and dragons in a serpent, DSing in, disembark and then shooting at whatever it is you want dead.
2)Archon with dragons in raider DSing in and killing whatever it is you want dead. Benefits being the raider is OT so you can shoot from any point on the vehicle, compared with the serpent which is now more than likely facing backwards? As you disembark from the rear.

The rear issue is easily solved by buying vectored engines. That lets you line up your idea drop and then turning after shooting.
If you're only running 5 fire dragons, you might also have a 3rd option, which is a falcon. It's got better firepower, but would require with a guardian warhost, ally detachment or CAD. With my DE, I'm running 1 or 2 aspect shrines, so the falcon is a no go.

Here's how I'd look at it.
The raider will absorb a bit more fire before everyone on board is tossed out and promptly shot dead.
The serpent/falcon is harder to kill, and the opponent my opt for just killing the fire dragons.
The short range of the firedragons means that an opponent might be able to assault and take it out in combat. I've lost many to guardsmen with krak grenades.

I've shifted from the above 3 options to the truly disposable option.
My Fire Dragons are in a venom and just hoping for the best with the deep strike. It's got a tiny footprint, and between disembark and battle fortune, it's been working well enough.
That's freed up my Archon to do what he does best; escort my grotesques into battle tanking S10, Strength D and force weapon hits with his 2+ invul.
I'm also running a unit of dark reapers, and a raider.
At time of deployment, I can shift Reapers into the venom and webway it with the archon, or leave the Reapers in support and deep strike the dragons via venom. And I still have the option to deep strike the Grotesques and Archon should I want to. That flexibility has served me really well, but more often than not, it's been firedragons in the venom.


-Matt

I can't stress enough how important the WWP is.

I played a game last Saturday, using Scalpel Squadron, RSR and Harlequins Cast of Players for a Freakshow bonanza. Had an Archon with the Raider but didn't bother with a WWP.

Oh my days, I scatter onto the enemy and mishap, rolling a 1 for the table. Warlord, FB, Psychic Defence, gone in one roll.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I can't stress enough how important the WWP is.

I played a game last Saturday, using Scalpel Squadron, RSR and Harlequins Cast of Players for a Freakshow bonanza. Had an Archon with the Raider but didn't bother with a WWP.

Oh my days, I scatter onto the enemy and mishap, rolling a 1 for the table. Warlord, FB, Psychic Defence, gone in one roll.

Yeah, if you put all your eggs in one big basket, better have a WWP. If you go with the much smaller venom, you can get away without the WWP, just don't load it up with expensive dudes, 120 points of infantry is plenty (5 fire dragons w/exarch).

-Matt

Looking to run beastpack for the first time this weekend. Any tips or watchouts? Going to make sure my beastmasters are far away from each other in unit so both cant be picked off by one barrage but other than that anything to watch out for?

What usually makes up your beastpack?

Thanks!

6+ fiends, maybe a beastmaster, and a combat character from Eldar / Harlequins with fearless. Either psychic power them up, or run them as distraction unit meant to sweep smaller units. I'm a huge fan of the fiend pack.

You dont find that the characters slow them down? You like the fiend pack over grotesques?

Are khymerae runnable?

Incognito15 wrote:
You dont find that the characters slow them down?

If it's a big enough unit, you could conga line quite easily. However, it's easier to add a Farseer/Autach with a jetbike to keep up.

A great force multiplier is adding baharroth too.

You like the fiend pack over grotesques?

They do two radical different things in an army. Large beast packs are basically used as distraction units and ablative wound pools for attached characters.

Grotesques are meant to get into CC to bring the pain as fast as possible.

In a Coven list, Grots are really nice.

But, I'm a big fan of the Beast unit as well.

Are khymerae runnable?

Absolutely. Because their sooo cheap and effective.

Another idea I've seen is that since the Beast squad can be really cheap, you could take that Real Space Raider list (6 FA slots), and have 6 cheapo beast units for distraction and objective grabbers.

You dont feel like one has an advantage over the other with these loadouts:

5x Khymerae, 1x Beastmaster, 4x Fiend

or

4x Grotesque - in Raider

I like the beastpack as I dont have to worry so much about my fragile transport being blown up then my effectiveness shot.

If you are that close, I'd try to get a majority thoughness of 5 by increasing the # of Fiends to 5.

So are mono-deldar dead? Is it just too tempting to ally in Eldar, or can deldar compete at top tables on their own? Does anyone know for sure?

Depends on your classification of dead. You can go 2-1 in a tourney but your going to face that eldar or tau list that hard counters you. The problem with allying eldar is every unit in the de codex has a unit in the dar codex thats better. So where do you stop?

I mean for 1500 I did have Scourge and Razorwings but eventually it turned into

Lhamaeans
10x Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider, NS, SR
10x Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider, NS, SR
10x Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider, NS, SR
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon

Aspect Host (+1 BS)
5x Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons

Crimson Death
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter Exarch

But like, it was tough finding a game

On a DE note, has anyone had success with any of the Wrack formations, aside Scalpel Squadrom (that just never works out for me).

Scarlet Epicureans don't suck.

I think mono Dark Eldar can still function, but it's harder. Ask me again when this escalation league coming up is finished. (It's restricted to the point where I can only run mono-DE.)

 Jimsolo wrote:
Scarlet Epicureans don't suck.

I think mono Dark Eldar can still function, but it's harder. Ask me again when this escalation league coming up is finished. (It's restricted to the point where I can only run mono-DE.)

Have you used the Epicureans? I want to run them for "kill my Warlord" shenanigans but am not sure what to do with them besides maybe attack squads with special weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:
So SM get like ten free tanks just for playing space marines. And they all come with free TL heavy bolters. Riiiight.

Next codex please.

I'm not happy about this garbage, either. It's really exciting knowing DE only missed the Decurion "free things for your army because sales!" bus by about 2 months so we get to suck up being part of a crappy codex cycle for almost a full cycle.

How do we deal efficiently with the inevitable objsec ghost pod spam armies? Give in to bringing Eldar allies? Field armies of Scourges? Find a new hobby?

Those free transports come with a monumental tax though, chock full of TAC which aren't that great.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Those free transports come with a monumental tax though, chock full of TAC which aren't that great.

This doesn't make sense though. For one, they can take min-sized tac squads. Two, in no way is ten free tanks too expensive. Even if you insist on calling the use of tac squads a tax (and they were going to use a couple anyway most likely), they get up to +550 points in their list. In an 1850 match, it's 2400 points of space marines versus 1850 of Dark Eldar. And everything in their formation plus those ten free tanks is objective secured. We have no real way to deal with that.

When there's a drop pod, a Razorback, and a SM infantry unit all obsec on three or four objectives, what can we do? Even if we use coven and assault, by the time we get there, there aren't enough turns life in the game to clear everything.

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Those free transports come with a monumental tax though, chock full of TAC which aren't that great.

This doesn't make sense though. For one, they can take min-sized tac squads. Two, in no way is ten free tanks too expensive. Even if you insist on calling the use of tac squads a tax (and they were going to use a couple anyway most likely), they get up to +550 points in their list. In an 1850 match, it's 2400 points of space marines versus 1850 of Dark Eldar. And everything in their formation plus those ten free tanks is objective secured. We have no real way to deal with that.

When there's a drop pod, a Razorback, and a SM infantry unit all obsec on three or four objectives, what can we do? Even if we use coven and assault, by the time we get there, there aren't enough turns life in the game to clear everything.

to get free transports they have to take:
2 chaplains or captains(can be one of each)
6 tactical squads
2 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents (2 total)
2 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad. (2 total, can be one of each)

the min cost without upgrades for min sized squads would be ~ 1000pts for the cheapest min sized squad with 0 points in any upgrades or gear. which are 2 captains(no upgrades), 6 squads of 5 tacticals (no upgrades), 2 5 man assault squads(no upgrades), 2 5 man dev squads (no upgrades)

and then they can get free vehicles. So the tacticals could have 6 free razorbacks with no upgrades, the assault squads Maybe 2 free razorbacks, and the 2 5 man dev squads 2 razorbacks, so yeah they get 10 free vehicles but look at the army list. Consider when you are buying upgrades for the squads they are often going to be more than double the base cost for marine stuff. You just hit 2k points, so you can have the units above with trimmed back upgrades and no upgrade to the free tanks, and pretty much have no additional special rules for formations are are locked in to those units. Going to other more interesting units(grav cents) drastically costs more, and grav cents don't come with vehicle options that can be free.

so yes they can get +550 points at 1850 but they will not be able to upgrade the vehicles and they will not be able to upgrade multiple squads due to points limits.

and these are MIN size squads, so those 6 tac squads is a total of 30 models. The two min sized assault squads, 10 more models, 2 dev squads, 10 more models. 2 captains 10 vehicles, this army is under 70 models most of which are 1 wound, low AV, and no 2+ saves, no ++ saves outside of characters. I would rather fight this army than scatbike spam/pentyrant/gravbikes+invis centstar many times over.

What are you going to do when a drop pod and AV11 3hp razorback is on on objective with 5 tac marines? I hope you have a solution for killing that as dark eldar, I would say raider with splinter racks averages 3-4 dead marines a turn, the darklance from raider and 1 unit of scourges with haywire should be able to clear all of that in 2 turns.

I would be more than happy to face the above army list with free vehicles. Its not drop podding, and if they take free drop pods thats just a bonus in my book because what are they going to drop pod at those points? tac marines? not as scary as the normal grav biker spam drop pod sternguard lists I see in tournaments.

Not to mention that even without the upgrades, you still need to take an Auxillary choice.

I'd be happy facing off against it more than ScatterSpam

lustigjh wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Scarlet Epicureans don't suck.

I think mono Dark Eldar can still function, but it's harder. Ask me again when this escalation league coming up is finished. (It's restricted to the point where I can only run mono-DE.)

Have you used the Epicureans? I want to run them for "kill my Warlord" shenanigans but am not sure what to do with them besides maybe attack squads with special weapons

I do. Usually just as two squads of five in venoms, with the haemmy riding in a Raider with the Grotesquerie formation I almost always take.

It allows me to throw some Venom spam on the field, and gives me some fairly durable troops should I need them for mop-up assault work or for securing objectives. If my opponent runs a beatstick HQ, then the Epicurean becomes my Warlord, so I can get VP from dying at his hands, while my Grotesques kill the enemy warlord with overflow wounds. It's usually pretty effective.

What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Played a game yesterday with some stuff I've never used before. Brought some helions and mandrakes. The helions basically won the game. I had just one left and he sweeping advanced my friends crisis team, it was beautiful.

 Gamerely wrote:
Played a game yesterday with some stuff I've never used before. Brought some helions and mandrakes. The helions basically won the game. I had just one left and he sweeping advanced my friends crisis team, it was beautiful.

When you said hellions won you the game, I pictured your opponent choking to death from laughter as you deployed the hellions.
The only issue with hellions is the price, they really are not worth 13 points.

But, like all things dark eldar, if you ignore them long enough, and roll well on the drugs, the combination of power from pain and combat drugs might make them suck less by the end of the game.

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Varies. Try to keep him in range of the units that need him. He can follow a CTC for true silliness, but usually staying centrally located and getting in range of my thickest knot of guys works best. They've also got Smah, so they can usually hold their own in assault, which means. One occasionally work as backstop anti-vehicle units.

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

This should be the official Cronos tactica guide.

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

This should be the official Cronos tactica guide.

Agreed. My Cronos is just along for the ride in my Dark Artisan. He's a Spirit Probe tax, who can melt a few MEQ with his flamer and stomp on a couple of MEQ/TEQ in CC, if his big brother, the Talos, leaves anything for him stomp. But I keep my expectations for the Cronos' offensive efforts low. With that said, I still find him worth every point due to the 4+ FNP he hands out. If run alongside a Corpsethief Claw, you have five MCs with good shooting and scary CC abilities that now have Necron Decurion-level resiliency.

sweetbacon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

This should be the official Cronos tactica guide.

Agreed. My Cronos is just along for the ride in my Dark Artisan. He's a Spirit Probe tax, who can melt a few MEQ with his flamer and stomp on a couple of MEQ/TEQ in CC, if his big brother, the Talos, leaves anything for him stomp. But I keep my expectations for the Cronos' offensive efforts low. With that said, I still find him worth every point due to the 4+ FNP he hands out. If run alongside a Corpsethief Claw, you have five MCs with good shooting and scary CC abilities that now have Necron Decurion-level resiliency.

Make that Haemie your warlord and now they're even better.