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I avoid liquifier grots like the plague.


Good via WWP:
Grotesques in a Raider. Fire Dragons in a Raider (especially against tanks and Knights!). Dark Artisan formations. Armor of Misery HQ plus Coven Formation plus Far/Shadowseer with Shriek. Ten man grotesque squad.

Less amazing but still occasionally fun: twenty warriors with maxed out weapons.

The liquifier gun is another disappointment in the book, don't ever use it. Grotesques are a lot of fun out of the grotesquerie formation and I always recommend it to new players. You can build convincing count-as grotesques out of AoS night/cryptfiends, ogres, rat fiends, etc and talos/cronos bits.

 Ignatius wrote:

Are there any units that you all have found useful with a WWP Archon?

Me personally? No.

Unfortunately, the accuracy of my units is inversely proportional to the accuracy of their deep-strike result. So, if they don't scatter (either through luck or with a WWP), then they will immediately miss with about 4/5 of their weapons.

But, this is more my units hating me than universal advice.

Played an unusual format recently. 3vs3, each player makes 616pts of an army, sides are then randomized from the 6 players present, then roll for warlord. All players on your team regardless of their faction are counted as AoC, even if they would normally be higher.

I ended up getting paired with a "purge" FW army, that had some zombies, a pretty weak HQ, and a lot of artillery. 3 earth shaker carriages, 4 griffons, and 4 quad guns. The other player on my team was a generic CSM player with a Slaaneshi DP, and two squads of 5 CSM with aspiring champion that had a powerfist. the squads each had a meltagun.

I took:
RSR detachment
HQ: Succubus, Haywire, agonizer, archangel of pain, WWP

Elites: 3 Grotesques, 1 had was upgraded to aberration with a scissorhand, and 1 had a liquifier

Troops: 10 wyches, 3 had hydra gauntlets, raider with Dark lance and night shields
Troops: 5 Kabalite warriors, 1 had blaster.
Fast: Venom, splinter cannon upgrade {warriors went here]

Opponents were:
a- Genestealer cult(used Inq models+knight) had a weak inquisitor with a bunch of grenades and some deathcult assassins(genestealer models) had the FW knight with the deflegrate sword and many shots gun.
b- Daemons, khorne, had 16 hounds with herald on jugger and hound herald. 2 units of bloodletters
c- Tzeentch daemons, three large pink horror units with heralds and a soulgrinder.

played Maelstorm, discarding objectives that could not be completed due to lack of model required for objective. terrrain was fairly dense city ruins. Our warlord was the purge leader, who had some negligble trait we forgot. Enemy warlord was the knight, had conqueror of cities.

I'll focus mostly on what the DE did, since this is a DE tactics article.

Yes wyches are bad, I could have replaced them with anything else and had more use.

Enemy turn 1
saw DE untouched, warpstorm caused 2 hits on the wyche raider which failed to glance/pen. One of our CSM squads was gunned down to just the aspiring champion by the advancing knight which was still on our far right flank behind the khorne dogs. Blood letters and horrors moved up full distance towards us on the flank across from my dark eldar. Enemy players scored 2 points from holding objectives.

Our Turn 1
I moved up mostly the left flank near ruins, opposite were two units of bloodletters, and two units of horrors with heralds. I was covering the CSM+ DP in the ruins who were guarding the quad guns, our other flank had the rest of the artillery (3 earthshaker carriages, 4 griffons, the purge warlord and his command unit, and a large unit of plague zombies bubble wrapping it all in a corner)

Venom did what venoms do, and killed 4 blood letters. Warriors inside gunned down another 2. Wyches sat in their raider, Which took a darklance shot at the knight from across the table- to no effect. Succubus and grot bodyguard were in reserves.

our right flank unleashed a lot of pain on their left flank, which was the knight and khorne houds+ jugger herald. Some completely amazing saves resulted in only 2 hounds returning to the warp. With their scout move they would be in assault on turn two with the zombie bubble wrap....we score 1 point from holding an objective in our deployment zone.


Enemy turn 2
Knight gunned down some zombies infront of the griffons to make a hole for the hounds+herald to charge through and multi assault most of our right flank. the CSM player and I decided it would be best to move up our left flank and try and score objectives we have cards for, and kill the weaker flanks, mainly because our chance to kill the knight is close to zero. Horrors fire some bolt power killing some zombies and wounding a quad gun, hounds pass their assault charge, losing 1 model to over-watch, and multi assault the plague zombies, griffons, and our warlord+command squad. Hounds choke hard, and we win assault somehow by 1 pt. They lose 3 wounds to Demonic instability. They DS in the smaller horror unit +herald very close to the CSM and DE and then fire some flicking fire at the Warriors venom, they manage to score no glances/pens. The other horrors move up with the blood letters and knight, knight fires at our HQ and command squad, but only cause 1 wound after cover with some lucky rolling on our purge players part. Warpstorm blows up the wyches raider. Soul grinder gunned down 2 wyches from across the table with its harvester. The raider dying to the warpstorm gives up Firstblood to our enemy.

Our turn 2
Our right flank looks bad, purge player is talking about bombing himself, special rule purge has, to get rid of the hounds. We point out the knight is right behind them. He fires the quad guns at a far back horrors unit, completely wiping it out in one go...Griffons fire indirect at the knight hoping to hit rear armor, they score a few hits but no glances/pens. Earthshakers fired at another horror unit in some ruins to no real effect. CSM moved up and threw frags at the horrors killing 4 total due to them being packed tight from DSing. Venom+warriors open up on horrors killing 2 more(unit was 16 strong at start of turn) Wyches moved up to support the DP charging the bloodletters, after some discussion with opponents the black mace was ruled to cause T tests on the wyches should they be in range due to AoC. Wyches ran, as they were now not going to assault, and began to cross the ground prepping to have to rush the knight in a turn or two to try and tie it up for a turn in the future. CSM charged the horrors, and wiped them out, DP charged the bloodletters and wiped out one of the units. We score one VP from killing a psyker unit(horrors)

Enemy turn 3

Knight moves up, guns down a griffon not blocked by the assault. Horrors move towards an objective, and fire off some more powers to no real effect at the quad guns. Remaining bloodletter squad of 2 models moves up to try and stop the CSMs, soul grinder continues to slowly advance below the knight. Knight charges into the griffons. Hounds+knight wipe out the griffons, earthshakers, our warlord, and command HQ. Enemy scores another objective. Their inq+deathcult comes in some ruins at the back of their table edge.

Our turn 3-
Due to time we were told at the top of turn 3 it would be the last turn. We are pretty behind on points, but have 2 objectives we can score, and supremacy. Wyches move+ run to hold an objective, Succubus comes in with grots on objective near their Inq, venom+warriors move then flat out onto another objective. DE give our team line breaker, score one of the two objectives we have cards for, and secure 3 objectives total, need 1 more for supremacy. Quad guns down some horrors with OS around the last objective we need, which the DP has moved near, DP then runs to objective scoring it. We score supremacy and roll a d3. on a 1,2 we tie, 3+ we win.

roll a 4.

Thoughts- Wyches did not do much. If the game had not been called at turn 3, they would have probably tried to tie up the hounds/knight. We had no answer for the knight really once the big guns were gone. The DP could have maybe put a few HP on it, and the succubus maybe 1 or 2 from haywire. Wyches never saw combat so can't say much about them, they did score an objective but any unit that could run with fleet at that point could have filled that roll. Warriors killed 2 bloodletters, and 2 horrors. Venom killed 4 bloodletters and 2 horrors. Succubus and grotesques we did not roll for any shooting when they came in due to the game being called. They did DS in to grab a point for the team, and help score supremacy, and were in range for Archangel of pain on the inq+Deathcult, and the grot could have liquified them as well. I am fairly confident they would have mopped up the inq+friends in assault the following turn. At which point it would just be cat and mouse with us hiding from the knight+soulgrinder and try to score maelstorm points until the game ends, which we could probably have pulled off for at least 2 turns.

Would have been nice to get the wyches into assault to see how they would have done, but had to hold back the chance they had due to the Black Mace ruling and not wanting half of them to blow up just to try and see how they would do.

for this game-

Warriors+ venom= A
Wyches+Raider= D They held an objective in our deployment at the end of the game, they didn't get wiped out but just never did anything- most of this was due to playing for objectives and avoiding conflict for reasons listed.
Succubus+grots=B-, really it was just the WWP but being able to take the objective deep in their deployment for our maelstorm+supremacy was pretty key towards our score at the end.

Interesting match, sounds pretty fun. It's a shame about the game getting called early though, would have been interesting to see how the wyches fared against the knight. To be honest if they hold they can more than make their points back by deflecting a big scary thing from doing big scary stuff. I would much less rely on them to have damage ouput in this fight but the utility of having them lock down the right enemy can't be overstated.

Succ, grots, warriors and venom are tried and true. Overall seems you put them to good use and did as expected. Sadly due to game end on turn three they never got a chance to put any hurt down on the enemy.

Yeah personally I've found that wyches don't really do anything. With the succubus personally I've found giving her with a archite glove and putting here with 3 Incubi and a Kalviex can get things done.

Do you guys get good results out of Incubi generally?

I've used mine in several games, and each time it's like they're trying to disappoint me.

 vipoid wrote:
Do you guys get good results out of Incubi generally?

I've used mine in several games, and each time it's like they're trying to disappoint me.

Personally I've found the Incubi to be good at what they do. I have the babysit my HQ choice and go after any shooty units. I have found that I will be disappointed if I send them after dedicated close combat units, but I've found that with all my Dark Eldar that it's best to match my strengths to their weaknesses.

 awbbie wrote:

Personally I've found the Incubi to be good at what they do. I have the babysit my HQ choice and go after any shooty units. I have found that I will be disappointed if I send them after dedicated close combat units, but I've found that with all my Dark Eldar that it's best to match my strengths to their weaknesses.

Mine do abysmally even against shooty units.

Mine do fantastically, 2+Klaivex in a Venom isn't very expensive at 135pts. If you haven't guessed, i take them solely for the Klaivex. I either deepstrike them or use the Venoms long range to keep them safe until turn 3/4 then turbo boost them into a position to either threaten a back board unit (Long Fangs, Loota's, Pathfinders, you know the sort). Usually by then massed splinterfire has picked of several models from most units, and even this small Squad can ravage them. Sure they have a turn to blow the unit out of the water, but a 4+ jink can be obnoxious and 3+ Sv FnP can weather a surprising amount of firepower from depleted squads.

With Furious Charge and Rampage the Klaivex throws out 5-7 attacks at Strength 5 Ws 6 for 30pts and it's a bargin. I've had him personally dispatch HQ choices such as Captains, Sorcerers and Once an Ork Warboss (rolling +3 attacks on rampage is very powerful). The two Incubi body guards eat overwatch and if they fail the charge they are dead, but they are scary.

If 5 Incubi would do the job then 3 Incubi with Klaivex can do it as well for cheaper, just never send them against anything that is low model count high durability, they need Rampage to do their damage.

Give them a go, since i usually take 1/2 free venoms anyway to fill up fast attack why not give a venom a 70pt upgrade for 2 Incubi + Klaivex.

Just wanted to bring some attention back to this thread because I have a few questions. I intend on having a DE allied detachment to my growing Eldar army (DE will eventually become their own army but that's another tale). Could I make a passable ally using the Perfection of Agony set? (1 succubus, 10 wyches, 6 reavers, venom, raider). I'm aware that Wyches aren't that great atm, but I' was going for a Wych Cult theme to go alongside my Craftworld Iybraesil theme for my Eldar. Thoughts?

Wyches are utterly atrocious in this codex. The Perfection of Agony is not a competitive addition to an army.

Warriors are the only troops choice worth anything for DE.

(That being said: excuse my negativity, and welcome to the True Kin!)

Not really looking for competitiveness. Just wanted to know if I could make a passable ally with a Wych Cult theme. I'm painfully aware that Wyches are suboptimal (borrowed a buddy's models for a test game), but what can I do to make them work?

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really looking for competitiveness. Just wanted to know if I could make a passable ally with a Wych Cult theme. I'm painfully aware that Wyches are suboptimal (borrowed a buddy's models for a test game), but what can I do to make them work?

Throw them in an assault transport and hope it doesn't blow up.

To make them work? Nothing. I don't mean they are sub-competitive, when I say they're awful I mean in the running for worst unit in the game. Bottom 10 list? Without question. Right along with Hellions.

Any points you spend on wyches are wasted points. To my knowledge, the perfection of agony doesn't save you money anyway.

If you want an allied force, a five man warrior team in a venom is your bread and butter. A succubus is the best HQ. Stick her in either a venom or a raider, along with a competent assault unit (grotesques are best, but pricey, Incubi are a cheaper alternative).

I'm not trying to poop on someone's parade, but I wouldn't feel right candy-coating it for someone either: wyches aren't 'not good,' they cannot even be made to be passable. I would hate to see someone try to start a Dark Eldar army from an allied force, but get discouraged because they were encouraged to select not only the worst selections from the codex, but possibly some of the worst selections in all of 40k.

Some possible alternatives for a beginning allied force, to put some constructive thoughts out there instead of pure negativity:

1) Five warriors with a blaster in a venom. Succubus for your HQ (Succubus can take a Webway Portal and go with your CWE if you like.)
2) Dark Artisan formation from the Covens supplement. (Talos, Cronos, HQ.) A small formation that packs a big punch, plus the haemonculus can be a mandatory HQ for when you expand your army.
3) Archon with a blaster, trueborn with four blasters, all in a raider. Troop tax is made up with a five man warrior squad in a venom. If you can scavenge extra bits for blasters, you can make the trueborn and the warrior squads from a single $25 box.
4) Grotesquerie formation. The most expensive, but also the most competitive (and slots in nicely with any other build type, including CWE). Two squads of grotesques in raiders, with a haemonculus accompanying one. (You can find cheaper alternatives to standard grots to save the burden to your wallet.) The grotesquerie is a good formation that not only makes a great startup force, but will be useful no matter how large your army gets.
5) If you wanted a fluffy force, two squads of warriors in venoms (or raiders if you wanted to go full squads), plus an HQ (either Archon or Succubus) either in a raider with some grotesques or a third venom with some incubi is another great way to go. If you want to scrimp on the money, you can convert your own Court of the Archon and just throw them in with your Archon instead of a dedicated assault unit.

I appreciate the honesty. I truly do. I may build towards a Kabalite force instead, as suggestion 5 mentions. I'm just disappointed that Wyches are even worse than I thought. I don't have the new book (yet), but I was hoping I could salvage a semi-capable Wych Cult force (as I enjoy the fluff). Looks like that plan will need to change. Are Reavers any good still?

Reavers are a cool unit for killing a unit in cover before they even have a chance to strike. I love the idea of them and the models. They do well for harassment and can take fire from all but Tau quite well, rending is nice for MC and tanks in a pinch

But when the day arrives they never seem to make it on my list...Not sure why though.

Reavers are awesome! They are a versatile unit with speed out the wazoo and decent hitting power.

If you have opponents who know how to deal with them, they may be frustrating, because it won't seem like they're doing much. Like all DE units, they can take a little time to fully figure out.

As far as units go, here's what I think of the Dark Eldar codex as it stands:

Optimal Choices (If I leave these units out of a list, I feel like I'm missing out on something.)
HQ- None
Troops- Warriors in Venoms
Elites- Grotesques
Fast Attack- Reavers, Venoms, Scourges
Heavy Support- None
Formations- Scalpel Squadron, Grotesquerie

Reasonable Choices (Useful.  I'm not going to cry if I can't take them, but I might still take them.)
HQ- All
Troops- Warriors in Raiders
Elites- Trueborn, Mandrakes, Incubi
Fast Attack- Raiders, Razorwing
Heavy Support- Talos Engines, Ravagers
Formations- Raiding Party, Scarlet Epicureans, Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan

Sub-par choices (If I have to take these, I'm handicapping myself.)
HQ- None.
Troops- Wyches
Elites- Bloodbrides, Wracks
Fast Attack- Beast packs, Hellions
Heavy Support- Voidraven Bombers, Cronos Engines
Formations- Covenite Fleshcorps

I strongly prefer fielding units of five warriors with a blaster, riding in a venom, as my troop tax.  Four to five of those is very cheap, and hard for opponents to handle with their quantity.  

The Hellions and Wyches are useless. (Wyches will serve you better converted to harlies.)

However, if you aren't averse to allies and really want to throw competitive players a curveball, I recommend the Freakshow lists.  You can find links to a series of tactical articles on how to do it here.  Of course, if you're looking for a purely Dark Eldar style of play, Mushkilla's articles (higher on the same page) have a wealth of tactical information for a new player.  (And for the experienced veteran, if I'm honest.)

Hope that helps!

(Also, if you're pursuing Dark Eldar, I highly recommend visiting the Dark City website. It's an extremely close community, which is amazingly supportive of its members.)

You could also look into forgeworld's Corsairs. They are a mix of eldar and dark eldar with a private theme. They were just recently updated too!

That's actually very helpful Jimsolo, thank you. So Warriors in a Raider are an ok choice then? After I learned that Wyches suck, I had started looking into a primarily Kabalite force, with Wych Cult elements mixed in (I have an idea for a custom kabal/wych cult). If I took Warriors in Raiders for my troops, what would be the best choices to support them? I figured a Razorwing for anti-flyer duties (and to annoy the foe if no flyers are present). A Ravager or two for AT (although I've heard some say that Ravagers aren't that great anymore). A squad or two of Scourges (either for AT or infantry killing). Might also have a squad or Reavers darting around. And then finally some incubi to act as a retinue for my Warlord (either a Succubus or an Archon, since I'm getting the Wych Cult Shardstorm as an Xmas gift).

For an allied force start with Scourges with Haywaire Blasters for your anti-tank, not as durable as Ravagers but not as pricey either (~120pts for the Scourges against 140 for a triple Dark Lance Ravager with Nightshields for the 3+ jink). 6 Reavers are very good with two Cluster Caltrops on board for 2D6 S6, Rending HoW attacks.

The flyers look cool and can be fun but struggle to make back their points so are better to use in bigger games with more targets and time to get to at least turn 5. Save the Ravagers and Covenant formations for when you build the army out to a full indipendant force.

Depends how set you are on using DE because you like DE, as CWE have better alternatives in most departments.

Razorwings aren't especially good at anti-air, they're ok. But why not take a Crimson Hunter?
Why Wyches when you could take Banshees?
etc.

Some DE units offer something a bit different such as Reavers. If you want to take some units because you like them then go for it (but Wyches ARE terrible).

I already have a small but growing CWE army, I was looking to eventually start up a DE army as well. I'm quite aware that CWE are better in nearly every way.

I have had the most fun utilizing Grotesques from the Coven supplement codex, with particular usage of the Grotesquerie. It gets expensive really quick, but give each unit a Haemonculus for quicker Power from Pain benefits and Webway Portal accessibility. They will wreck anything with a toughness (Except GMCs) or things with Force (HISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS)

Seriously though, these monsters could potentially have 8 attacks on the charge at Str 5 with Poison (6's to Wound are Instant Death) if they are outnumbered. Give them Farseers for Psychic support and you have a very stubborn unit to remove.

Or, take a unit of Reavers and attach two Farseers to them in an attempt to get Invisibility. Now these annoying suicidal jetbikes can actually ram into the these they need too! And they have Hit and Run so you can get out of unfavorable combats if necessary.

So what is everyone's preferred loadout for Warriors? I was planning on running a few squads in Raiders as part of the DE allied detachment. I was thinking a Splinter Cannon to add to the amount of poisoned Dakka that the unit can put out

 War Kitten wrote:
So what is everyone's preferred loadout for Warriors? I was planning on running a few squads in Raiders as part of the DE allied detachment. I was thinking a Splinter Cannon to add to the amount of poisoned Dakka that the unit can put out

It could work, but because the weapon is salvo, you halve the range and fire less shots if the vehicle moved... so it's better just to keep your warriors cheap. Or you can give then a blaster. But if you take warriors in a raider, make sure you get splinter racks so they become twin linked.

I think Blasters and Splinter Cannons are both good, as are Splinter Racks for your warriors. I wouldn't buy any other upgrades for the Warriors, though. (Other raider upgrades, maybe. I like Night Shields.)

All these have their supporters and detractors. I think it's a matter of taste between them.

I'll second the 10 man squad with a splinter cannon in a Raider with Splinter Racks and Nightshields, once you're in rapid fire range hey put out a lot of re-rollable fire power. I find Blasters to be very hit and miss when running just the one, I've rolled too many 1's to hit for me to bother with them these days unless I'm running Trueborn and have 4 of them.

 Imateria wrote:
I'll second the 10 man squad with a splinter cannon in a Raider with Splinter Racks and Nightshields, once you're in rapid fire range hey put out a lot of re-rollable fire power. I find Blasters to be very hit and miss when running just the one, I've rolled too many 1's to hit for me to bother with them these days unless I'm running Trueborn and have 4 of them.

I feel the same way about lances nowadays too. I ran only two lance weapons this weekend in a 500 point match and they only managed to take out 1 hull point. To be honest my rolling was atrocious, well below mathematical averages but it made the fight difficult none-the-less. I'm so used to my 2000 point list with 9+ lances.

I will third the use of 10 man units with cannon inside a Raider with Nightshields and Splinter racks. It's expensive, running close to 190pts with Dark Lance, but it is so satisfying to roll so many dice. 22 shots with re-rolls to hit usually results in something close to 18-20 hits, that forces a lot of saves on dam near anything. It's kind of fragile, but deceptively so. A 3+ jink save is obnoxious against high power single shot weaponry such as Meltas and Missiles and low AP weaponry such as Autocannons aren't actually that likely to blow it to pieces.

The only problem stems from Ignore Cover. Ignore Cover frikkin' sucks.

My store regularly plays 600pt games, and I usually take 2 10 man Squads, Scourges with Heat Lances and a Lhamaen in a Venom. It's been doing very well for me so far.