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So even though I have gone ahead with basically choosing my SM detachment to be Imperial Fists, I have got the itch to possibly make them Blood Ravens instead but honestly one thing that has kept me from doing this is I don't quite know what Chapter Tactics would fit to help simulate tactics similar to what the Blood Ravens would use since they are basically regular SM with a good amount of Librarians that are their higher leadership. So I had a couple of thoughts. (This is not a discussion on who their actual progenitor is, that was already another thread and has been hashed out already, this is strictly how to bring Blood Ravens to the tabletop with keeping their fluff).

The one that would be instant would be to use Ultramarines Chapter Tactics and use Tigurius for the principle choice as an HQ and only use Librarians for any other HQ choices. Tigurius is not only the most power psyker SM have access to but he simulates a potent psyker that the Blood Ravens would have leading their forces. And the actual Chapter Tactics would be fine to fit the rest of the Blood Ravens since they mostly follow the Codex Astartes with the exception of the high amount of Librarians.

The next choice is kind of out there but it is another possibility that would also require a Librarian HQ would be using the chapter that I am already using, the Imperial Fists. There is less of a justification here except for what is found in the Sentinels of Terra supplement, particularly the Bones of Osrak relic that lets the Librarian re-roll any failed psychic tests so it makes for a beefy librarian being able to get a lot of his powers off. Also, the other reason why I kind of prefer it is because I prefer the Imperial Fist chapter tactics over any other because it fits my playstyle over most of the other Chapter Tactics. Also, I like it because I am not using a special character model from another Chapter to give that fluffy feel...just using an entire companies but hey, let's not split hairs.

I have been reading over several of the Chapter Tactics even the ones found in Forge World and I can't really see the Blood Ravens fitting in with any others besides these two that would make them fluffy as well have tactics that goes with their overall feel that we have been presented with in the games. As far as codices, they wouldn't be like GK, they aren't all psykers. The only other ones that I could possibly see is maybe Blood Angels but I feel like that is stretching things a bit too much but the BA have potent psykers and the only Librarian Dreadnought.

Its from 6th edition but this may help a bit.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

 Ustrello wrote:
Its from 6th edition but this may help a bit.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

I have looked at those and nothing jumps out at me that screams this is the feel of the Blood Ravens. The only one that comes sort of close is the Mantis Warriors since the Psychic Discipline that the Blood Ravens specialize in is Divination but other than that, not a lot of them feel enough to convey that psychic heaviness that is in the Blood Ravens.

I've actually been using the Mantis Warriors one, as it emphasis using infantry in terrain and psychic powers, which sort of fits the theme of the Blood Ravens post-Aurelian Crusade; weakened, low on heavy equipment, but still psychically potent, so using more guerilla-warfare style attacks, as conventional shock/precision strikes would be less desirable.

It's also a hella-fun chapter tactic; I hammer of wrath'd a bloodthirster to death with Honour Guard, it was a most glorious moment.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I've actually been using the Mantis Warriors one, as it emphasis using infantry in terrain and psychic powers, which sort of fits the theme of the Blood Ravens post-Aurelian Crusade; weakened, low on heavy equipment, but still psychically potent, so using more guerilla-warfare style attacks, as conventional shock/precision strikes would be less desirable.

It's also a hella-fun chapter tactic; I hammer of wrath'd a bloodthirster to death with Honour Guard, it was a most glorious moment.

After re-reading the Mantis Warriors and the Chapter Tactics, it does kind of fit for the Blood Ravens post DoW2 especially with giving them access to Divination seeing as that has been stated that is the signature of the Blood Ravens. Even with taking Ultramarines tactics to get Tiggy and Divination seems like another round about way of doing it. This has made me drop Imperial Fists from the running because I feel like Divination is a must for the Blood Ravens. Now I just have to decide which Chapter Tactics would come into use more. The Mantis Warriors seem designed around a more close combat oriented tactics and for SM since they go with my GK, I tend to like my SM a little more shooty and let the GK take care of the close combat. I really am up in the air about this. I think I would be more comfortable using the Mantis Warriors over the Ultramarines because taking general tactics is different than taking Chapter Tactics to get access to a certain character.

What about giving them the Orks' looted equipment rules? It would fit the Blood Ravens.

Red scorps with Ultramarine allies. You can then have Loth and Tiggy, debatable which one is best. Each of your tac squads will have an 'apothecary' which you could instead say is a psyker whos power is to conceal the unit or help heal/increase the endurance of his squad psychically. Hence the 5+ fnp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whilst LotD are squads of psykers with teleportation ability (deepstrike), psychic shields (3++), and perfect timing (ignores cover).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^its what I decided to do when I wanted to proxy my BA as TS loyalist decendents for a few games.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Red scorps with Ultramarine allies. You can then have Loth and Tiggy, debatable which one is best. Each of your tac squads will have an 'apothecary' which you could instead say is a psyker whos power is to conceal the unit or help heal/increase the endurance of his squad psychically. Hence the 5+ fnp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whilst LotD are squads of psykers with teleportation ability (deepstrike), psychic shields (3++), and perfect timing (ignores cover).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^its what I decided to do when I wanted to proxy my BA as TS loyalist decendents for a few games.

That is an interesting idea to help solve this but how do you keep track of which units are with which detachment if they are all painted the same?

 Envihon wrote:


That is an interesting idea to help solve this but how do you keep track of which units are with which detachment if they are all painted the same?

I used to do something similar when the 6th ed codex first dropped, and I just used different company markings, so the guys using UM chapter tactics had the roman numeral III on the shoulderpad, and didn't have black kneepads whereas the guys I was using as Raven Guard (as I inherited a metric ton of jump troops at the time) were IV. Subtle difference, but as the different rules only matter offensively, and provided you inform your opponent clearly it's manageable, though still a touch messy.

Personally, I find Marine shooting to be thuroughly mediocre, most of what you pay for in terms of stats only matters in close combat; initiative, strength, armour save, they all only matter, or matter more in close quarters, and Honour Guard are fantastically cost effective. Gaining move through cover, hammer of wrath and situational furious charge lets even godawful tactical marines charge things and not get completely stomped by fodder units, and helps those mediocre assault units, like Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans do better.

I still think I would prefer keeping this to one Chapter instead of trying to use two to get the feel. Having 2 required HQs would damper my already expensive army list. I won't be running these purely by themselves, at least not at first. My primary army is GK and these will be allies until I get enough models to field them by themselves so to have that many high costing units.

Unfortunately, if I decided to do this, I am going to have to convert my Imperial Fists which are just primed, nothing painted yet because I am still working on my GKs. They are just primed yellow which shouldn't be too hard to cover with a strong dark red base coat like Khorne Red.

Right now, I would almost prefer to run them through the Mantis Warriors because it would provide the least change to my Drop Pod Centurion focused list. To put Tiggy in would require an adjust of points but really, I could use the Librarian I am using now since he is equipped in the same manner as Tiggy to proxy should I ever want to try it out with Ultramarines Chapter Tactics.

People seem to think that BR use ONLY Librarian Captains, and the Librarians carry the day. BR use their Librarians to divine enemy positions and tactics and goals and counter them. If anything, BR would be somethibg along the lines of Rerolling Seize Initiative, Choose to deploy first or second, choose when night fighting is in place, etc.

 Deadshot wrote:
People seem to think that BR use ONLY Librarian Captains, and the Librarians carry the day. BR use their Librarians to divine enemy positions and tactics and goals and counter them. If anything, BR would be somethibg along the lines of Rerolling Seize Initiative, Choose to deploy first or second, choose when night fighting is in place, etc.

You just pretty much gave the solid vote for the Mantis Warriors Chapter Tactics since that is their benefits is to re-roll seize the initiative and access to Divination for their Librarians. I don't need Librarian Captains but I do want my HQ choice for my Blood Ravens to be a Librarian. They are the only ones that allow Librarians into Chapter Master so I feel like I should somewhat convey that with my HQ choice to be a Librarian. Other than that, yeah, Blood Ravens are strict followers of the Codex so they wouldn't have Librarians every where or GK-like rules which is why I thought Ultramarines with access to Tiggy rules fit better than going with Red Scorpions to get access to Loth. After an explanation like that though, the Mantis Warriors would fit the best.

I'm going to use Angels Revenant tactics when I finally get the ball rolling on my own Blood Ravens. From my perspective, the chapter must be pretty depleted after the whole betrayal in the Dawn of War series, and they feel to me like they are going to fight to their last breath against anything - hence I think the To The Last Breath rule fits well. Also, after their encounter with the Necrons on Kronus, Hatred Necrons can fit in too.

This is just my perspective on it though. There are loads of ways of determining what has happened to the Blood Ravens, since there isn't any canon that progresses their story. It's really up to the player to pick a tactic that they think describes the Blood Ravens in their mind.

Hope this helped

G.A

Sidenote: generally I would think that Librarians would be pretty distrusted after Kyras' betrayal. As such, their numbers may have gone down a bit. But that's my perspective, and not to be considered as canon.

Reverent are nice, but Mantis are clearly the closest choice.

General Annoyance wrote:
I'm going to use Angels Revenant tactics when I finally get the ball rolling on my own Blood Ravens. From my perspective, the chapter must be pretty depleted after the whole betrayal in the Dawn of War series, and they feel to me like they are going to fight to their last breath against anything - hence I think the To The Last Breath rule fits well. Also, after their encounter with the Necrons on Kronus, Hatred Necrons can fit in too.

This is just my perspective on it though. There are loads of ways of determining what has happened to the Blood Ravens, since there isn't any canon that progresses their story. It's really up to the player to pick a tactic that they think describes the Blood Ravens in their mind.

Hope this helped

G.A

Sidenote: generally I would think that Librarians would be pretty distrusted after Kyras' betrayal. As such, their numbers may have gone down a bit. But that's my perspective, and not to be considered as canon.

The thing is that even if they would distrust Librarians, they constantly make them because the Blood Raven gene-seed has a habit of making non-psykers into psykers after the transformation into a space marine is complete.

And I would agree with BoomWolf, Mantis Warriors are a better fit because after being hit hard with their numbers, the Mantis Warriors are on a crusade of repentance much like the Blood Ravens would be after the DoW2 Retribution events and then being able to re-roll seize the initiative and access to Divination for all psykers really helps define what the Blood Ravens are.

I am still not sure I am going to do this though, the Blood Ravens were the first chapter that I fell in love with because I couldn't afford the table top for so long and I love psykers (It is the reason why when I did start, I chose my main force to be GK) that I have been wanting to do it but I have gotten in so much with the Imperial Fists as well.

 Envihon wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:
I'm going to use Angels Revenant tactics when I finally get the ball rolling on my own Blood Ravens. From my perspective, the chapter must be pretty depleted after the whole betrayal in the Dawn of War series, and they feel to me like they are going to fight to their last breath against anything - hence I think the To The Last Breath rule fits well. Also, after their encounter with the Necrons on Kronus, Hatred Necrons can fit in too.

This is just my perspective on it though. There are loads of ways of determining what has happened to the Blood Ravens, since there isn't any canon that progresses their story. It's really up to the player to pick a tactic that they think describes the Blood Ravens in their mind.

Hope this helped

G.A

Sidenote: generally I would think that Librarians would be pretty distrusted after Kyras' betrayal. As such, their numbers may have gone down a bit. But that's my perspective, and not to be considered as canon.

The thing is that even if they would distrust Librarians, they constantly make them because the Blood Raven gene-seed has a habit of making non-psykers into psykers after the transformation into a space marine is complete.

And I would agree with BoomWolf, Mantis Warriors are a better fit because after being hit hard with their numbers, the Mantis Warriors are on a crusade of repentance much like the Blood Ravens would be after the DoW2 Retribution events and then being able to re-roll seize the initiative and access to Divination for all psykers really helps define what the Blood Ravens are.

I am still not sure I am going to do this though, the Blood Ravens were the first chapter that I fell in love with because I couldn't afford the table top for so long and I love psykers (It is the reason why when I did start, I chose my main force to be GK) that I have been wanting to do it but I have gotten in so much with the Imperial Fists as well.

That's true with your argument about Librarians. I guess looking at the Blood Raven's motto - "Knowledge is power. Guard it well" - sums up how important roles such as Librarians are to them.

I think going with Mantis Warriors is a good idea. It fits in well but as I personally am not planning on having any more than 1 Librarian in my own army, I'm going to stick with Angels Revenant.

Regardless, happy hunting when you get your own Blood Ravens on the table - show those heretics that the Blood Ravens are never going to back down!

G.A

Sidenote 2: (habit of P.S stuff on my posts) A good way to start would be to grab a Librarian model you fancy, a Tactical Squad or two, and then a elite/support unit that you like, such as Vanguard Vets, Devestators etc. I don't know if you like to play competitively or not, but I would say that Tactical squads are a safe option due to their fair diversity at range combat. If competitive gaming isn't your thing, then, as always, go for the stuff that you would love to include in your little counter-crusade

Sidenote 3: sorry if that was patronising - I forgot to read that you have SM armies already Still, go grab some Librarians!

Anything that grants them a bonus to Stealing the Initiative... and any bits of wargear left on the battlefield.

Since I love psykers, the HQ that leads my Imperial Fists, possibly Blood Ravens now, was already a Librarian. And yeah, it seems that I will give them Mantis Warriors Chapter Tactics if I do choose to convert my Imperial Fists over to Blood Ravens.

Remember that the Mantis warriors also get access to a unique psyker from Forge world know as Ahazra Reth that is slightly better than the usual ones, although he is only a level 2 psyker. Amongst other things he gets divination and an addtional psychic power that gives his squad shrouded and defensive grenades and if he is your warlord his squad also gets night vision and interceptor, a rule that I find very blood ravens themed.

You could also do ally in Red Scorpians for Severin Loth.

Honestly I could see Star Phantoms working for Blood Raven tactics with rerolling 1s for deep strikes due to their love of steel rain and they focus on infantry and dreads being deployed by drop pods. Also the ability to grant most of their weapons twin linked for a turn could be interpreted as using their "found" wargear.

Honestly I see the psyker trait as a bit of a mislead as almost all the blood raven tactics in the games revolved very little around their tendency to have more psykers. While they might have more psykers in number (just take libarians) nothing really states their librarians are any more capable than other chapter librarians.

 Vankraken wrote:
Honestly I could see Star Phantoms working for Blood Raven tactics with rerolling 1s for deep strikes due to their love of steel rain and they focus on infantry and dreads being deployed by drop pods. Also the ability to grant most of their weapons twin linked for a turn could be interpreted as using their "found" wargear.

Honestly I see the psyker trait as a bit of a mislead as almost all the blood raven tactics in the games revolved very little around their tendency to have more psykers. While they might have more psykers in number (just take libarians) nothing really states their librarians are any more capable than other chapter librarians.

Most I see, including ones I made myself, have some sort of Librarian Sergeant, Librarian Captain, Librarian Chapter Master unit. Which does fit. They do indeed have Librarians hold regular ranks, resulting in things like Codicer-Sergeant, Epistolary-Captain, and obvious guys like Kyras. I do think however that too much focus is put on having Psykers rather than what the psykers do, which is study the enemy, divine their movements, sometimes for minutes, sometimes for so long other Chapters think they aren't doing gak, but once they have the enemy's plan, they make a counter-plan and carry it out to the letter for a single decisive offensive.

Although the Blood Ravens have more psykers than other chapters, keep in mind that their Librarians kind of have a tendency to go renegade with startling regularity. A lot of people get hung up on an "all Librarians, all the time" approach, but let's not forget that the main heroes and player characters of the Dawn of War games have all been captains.

Star Phantoms are Boreal's blood ravens.
As in, the dead ones. he was an incompetent commander

 Brother SRM wrote:
Although the Blood Ravens have more psykers than other chapters, keep in mind that their Librarians kind of have a tendency to go renegade with startling regularity. A lot of people get hung up on an "all Librarians, all the time" approach, but let's not forget that the main heroes and player characters of the Dawn of War games have all been captains.

Didn't really realise this until I thought about it. Put it into perspective:

Blood Raven Hero Captains:

- Davian Thule
- Gabriel Angelos
- Appollo Diomedes

And if you want, count the un-named Captain that represents you in the original DOW2

On the librarian side, you have Jonah Orion (dead) and Azariah Kyras (Renegade and Dead)

Let us not forget Captain Boreale.

Though "hero" might not be the right word here.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Let us not forget Captain Boreale.

Though "hero" might not be the right word here.

no, probably not