Why I think overwatch breaks the game

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**Co'tor Shas**

jreilly89 wrote:

GreaterGoodIreland wrote:
Hold on just a moment now, assaulting remains one of the most effective ways of killing off units if you're not an idiot about it. Assaults still have a number of advantages over shooting that would mean they would be entirely preferable if it wasn't for the Overwatch rule.

Multi-charges, combat being locked, inability to shoot at units locked in combat, sweeping advances, consolidation (i.e. free runs if you win combat), all forms of melee weapons being available for use after moving, etc etc. These are all things that continue to make the assault effective.

Failed charges are a bummer, sure, but the law of averages effectively means that charge ranges have actually been buffed, albeit trading off absolute reliability. Shooting has long had such a disadvantage in the form of cover-saves.

The Tau and their Supporting Fire rule compensates for them having essentially no real assault troops at all. Most if not all other armies have either close combat specialists, generalists who are competent at close combat for one reason or another, or both. The Tau have none of those three. Markerlight spam does make it very powerful, but then, markerlight spam makes pretty much everything in the Tau lists powerful; they're a shooting army. If the Tau were any less shooty, they would have to make the Tau more mobile to compensate. Which would be very very broken.

This. Although, the last part I have to scoff at. They get a 2d6 jump move in the assault phase. The only thing more mobile than Tau is Eldar with their Battle Focus gak.

Only on the suits, although they have been always about as mobile. Just imagine having that one fire warriors...

But, yeah, they suits are very mobile.

**nosferatu1001**

Ashiraya wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
You do realise that it is entirely possible to block those shots. You can predict where the laser will be before the shot is fired, based on the fact that laser travels in straight lines. You simply have the blade ready and waiting.

How do you bat aside multiple shots? You still have to move the blade from shot to shot...

Yes, but you only have to cover yourself, so the distance needed to move is small, you can reduce that further by moving at the same time, and while the shots move quickly, the rate of fire is nowhere near as high

Its how tennis players return serves - theyre moving before the ball is struck.

**Pouncey**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
You do realise that it is entirely possible to block those shots. You can predict where the laser will be before the shot is fired, based on the fact that laser travels in straight lines. You simply have the blade ready and waiting.

How do you bat aside multiple shots? You still have to move the blade from shot to shot...

Yes, but you only have to cover yourself, so the distance needed to move is small, you can reduce that further by moving at the same time, and while the shots move quickly, the rate of fire is nowhere near as high

Its how tennis players return serves - theyre moving before the ball is struck.

I'd make a comparison to Jedi deflecting Blaster shots in Star Wars, but Blasters aren't lasers - their shots move way too slowly for that to be the case.

However, to further your comparison, add a half-dozen tennis ball launchers all firing, once every second or two. Every returned ball is a block, and every one that gets by the tennis player is a shot that gets by his spear.

**nosferatu1001**

Lasbolts arent strict lasers either - various bits of fluff have the laser "bolt" being contained in an energy jacket that stops them disipating so quickly (heating the air, for example) so that could reduce the speed of the "projectile"

Given guardians are supposedly even faster than a normal marine, it doesnt seem inconeivable that they could perform these feats against poorly trained, bricking-it guardsmen.

**vipoid**

Soteks Prophet wrote:

A plasma gun gives you 2 shots whcih might kill you for 15 points. A power sword for the same points can have a lot more killing potential plus cover doesn't help.

How does a sword have more killing potential than a plasmagun? A plasmagun can kill at range and has a much wider range of targets. With a sword, you can kill MEQ... and that's about it. It won't help you kill more TEQ, it won't help against MCs, it won't help against vehicles.

**nosferatu1001**

A plasma gun cannot wipe out a squad of more than 2 models, unless they run off the table

A power sword can kill a unit of 100 models if it manages to win, break and chase down.

So a sword has the greatest potential to kill, a plasmagun has the widest range of unts it can easily kill, and a larger reach.

**vipoid**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A plasma gun cannot wipe out a squad of more than 2 models, unless they run off the table

A power sword can kill a unit of 100 models if it manages to win, break and chase down.

But surely combat potential should focus on results that are... likely.

Maybe once in a blue moon the planets will align and your power-sword guy will win combat against a 100-model unit... not sure how, but whatever. And then said unit flees (presumably the IG player forgot the commissar, or the nid player forgot synapse), and gets cut down. However, this hardly seems like the most reasonable scenario to base effectiveness on.

**nosferatu1001**

Killing potential. Nothing there about realism.

In addition the 100model green tide, where the fearless guy is dead, is another possibility.

More realistically, I've had a power sword be what won me combat , lost and swept a full 20 man tactical squad. It happens. A plasma gun does not have the same potential as a power sword, this us undeniable - unless you choose to move the goal posts again.

**Mumblez**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Killing potential. Nothing there about realism.

In addition the 100model green tide, where the fearless guy is dead, is another possibility.

More realistically, I've had a power sword be what won me combat , lost and swept a full 20 man tactical squad. It happens. A plasma gun does not have the same potential as a power sword, this us undeniable - unless you choose to move the goal posts again.

The green tide does not run. Even if it loses fearless (big bosspole warboss is dead, stompa is dead/farther than 6") the tide has Da boss iz watchin' rule, which means if they fail morale, they roll on the mob rule table with +2 and take D3+3 S4 hits but then count as passing the morale/Ld test.

**vipoid**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Killing potential. Nothing there about realism.

In addition the 100model green tide, where the fearless guy is dead, is another possibility.

Yet the model with a plasmagun still has more killing potential.

After all, he can still win combat even without a power sword, meaning it's still possible for him to wipe out the squad of 100 men by chasing them down in combat. And, of course, he also has a strong ranged attack.

**Deadshot**

Ashiraya wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
You do realise that it is entirely possible to block those shots. You can predict where the laser will be before the shot is fired, based on the fact that laser travels in straight lines. You simply have the blade ready and waiting.

How do you bat aside multiple shots? You still have to move the blade from shot to shot...

Everyone will be firing at different times, even if its only a milisecond between each. A Custodes is more than capable of moving fast enough. Plus, the likelihood is that the shots will only be a few inches apart, and only last for an instant. He just needs to have his weapon there for a single moment. Timed right a single sweep could intercept all shots.

**EVIL INC**

I'd have no problems with blast weapons snap shooting. I'd suggest always having it deviate the full distance if you roll an arrow though because of improper aiming. Would cause players to think about distances to themselves....

**Wilytank**

nosferatu1001 wrote:

More realistically, I've had a power sword be what won me combat , lost and swept a full 20 man tactical squad. It happens.

Considering Tactical Squads can't go higher than 10 models, no it doesn't happen.

**Deadshot**

Wilytank wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:

More realistically, I've had a power sword be what won me combat , lost and swept a full 20 man tactical squad. It happens.

Considering Tactical Squads can't go higher than 10 models, no it doesn't happen.

Tyrant's Legion and HH squads can reach 20.

**nosferatu1001**

Wilytank wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:

More realistically, I've had a power sword be what won me combat , lost and swept a full 20 man tactical squad. It happens.

Considering Tactical Squads can't go higher than 10 models, no it doesn't happen.

30k legions, so yes it has happened.

**the_scotsman**

Well, let's see.

Random charge distance (which is rerollable with fleet, jump packs or err we go which covers most dedicated assault troops in the game) which averages 7" compared to 6" previous

Assault grenades you can use before charging for usually more damage than the over watch.

Hammer of Wrath free on jump packs walkers cavalry bikes etc. (Which is usually stronger than the free over watch attack)

AND in every codex released since sixth dedicated assault units have gotten cheaper.

**Dakkafang Dreggrim**

Noooooo!

My 30 strong shoota boyz sqauds love over watch. Nothing is more satisfying than dakka ' ing down one unit. Then when the second comes to charge Dakka some more and finish it melee.

Some soft units ( in this case wyches) can't assault alone, they need a unit to soak the over watch for them.

Demons have the same issue as wyches. My friends poor blood letters and deamonettes hate shoota my shoota boyz.

**insaniak**

the_scotsman wrote:
Random charge distance (which is rerollable with fleet, jump packs or err we go which covers most dedicated assault troops in the game) which averages 7" compared to 6" previous

Except that the fact that the minimum potential charge distance is only 2" means that the increased 'average' does nothing worthwhile. You have to be much, much closer with random charge distance in order to guarantee that the assault will succeed... provided you don't have too many casualties from overwatch eroding your front line and pushing you back out of range.

Random charge distance as an idea is fine. Random charge distance rolled on 2D6 with no sensible minimum threshold? Not so much.

**Zewrath**

the_scotsman wrote:

AND in every codex released since sixth dedicated assault units have gotten cheaper.

The Wyches wants a word with you..

**docdoom77**

insaniak wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Random charge distance (which is rerollable with fleet, jump packs or err we go which covers most dedicated assault troops in the game) which averages 7" compared to 6" previous

Except that the fact that the minimum potential charge distance is only 2" means that the increased 'average' does nothing worthwhile. You have to be much, much closer with random charge distance in order to guarantee that the assault will succeed... provided you don't have too many casualties from overwatch eroding your front line and pushing you back out of range.

Random charge distance as an idea is fine. Random charge distance rolled on 2D6 with no sensible minimum threshold? Not so much.

Agreed. If they're stuck on random charge distance d6+4 would have been good, generating between 5 and 10 inches.

**koooaei**

docdoom77 wrote:
insaniak wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Random charge distance (which is rerollable with fleet, jump packs or err we go which covers most dedicated assault troops in the game) which averages 7" compared to 6" previous

Except that the fact that the minimum potential charge distance is only 2" means that the increased 'average' does nothing worthwhile. You have to be much, much closer with random charge distance in order to guarantee that the assault will succeed... provided you don't have too many casualties from overwatch eroding your front line and pushing you back out of range.

Random charge distance as an idea is fine. Random charge distance rolled on 2D6 with no sensible minimum threshold? Not so much.

Agreed. If they're stuck on random charge distance d6+4 would have been good, generating between 5 and 10 inches.

Some time ago, back in 6-th, i've started a thread about it

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576961.page

And people do like d6 + 3/4

Spoiler:

**Co'tor Shas**

I quite like a system whereby chance to hit is affected by the distance from the target. It's better with a d10 or d% system though.

**Pyeatt**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because its essentially free shooting and yet every ranged unit did not have its points cost increased to reflect this. A flamer which can do d3 instant hits when charged is a lot better than it was before. In comparison nothing was done to give the charging player any kind of compensating advantage. This really hurts armies like DE and tyranids. Just had one game today where Lelith got overwatched by a plasma pistol (her squad and transport had been killed by a helldrake). A 150pt model killed because of some quirky rule in the core rulebook that didn't exist two editions ago gives free shooting to everything.

Lelith was killed because you charged her into a unit alone. Sounds like a tactics error to me... do you even general?

**koooaei**

Pyeatt wrote:

Lelith was killed because you charged her into a unit alone. Sounds like a tactics error to me... do you even general?

I'd not make a mistake of trying to general Lelith...but yep, the original post sounds like: "They've killed my favorite mini on overwatch. FIX overwatch!".

**the_scotsman**

As an ork player, with a refilled die I don't think I've ever had a charge under 5" since the new Dex came out, and I've certainly never lost more than two models to over watch.

**ORicK**

Overwatch does not brake anything, it is a part of a solution, not a problem.
The problem being assault becoming more (relatively) more and more important in relation to shooting in a sci-fi game.

Overwatch is also not new, it is back (from way back) and they fixed the way it was before, where you had full BS.

And i understand that some rather charge 6" without overwatch than 2D6" plus overwatch, but that is because the ones that prefer no overwatch want their (assault) list to be better, not the game.

The current edition has quite a few problems, the tournament rules IMO are broken, but IMO overwatch is not a problem at all.

**TheSilo**

ORicK wrote:
Overwatch does not brake anything, it is a part of a solution, not a problem.
The problem being assault becoming more (relatively) more and more important in relation to shooting in a sci-fi game.

Overwatch is also not new, it is back (from way back) and they fixed the way it was before, where you had full BS.

And i understand that some rather charge 6" without overwatch than 2D6" plus overwatch, but that is because the ones that prefer no overwatch want their (assault) list to be better, not the game.

The current edition has quite a few problems, the tournament rules IMO are broken, but IMO overwatch is not a problem at all.

Considering that a Space Marine with a bolter has a less than 1/4 chance to kill a charging Imperial Guardsman, overwatch adds nothing but bloat and wasted time to the game.

**vipoid**

TheSilo wrote:
Considering that a Space Marine with a bolter has a less than 1/4 chance to kill a charging Imperial Guardsman, overwatch adds nothing but bloat and wasted time to the game.

Also, it doesn't add any tactical depth to the game. Being able to put a unit on overwatch instead of shooting (and then get to shoot at full BS if an enemy assaults it) would at least add some options.

As it stands, there's no option - just a bit more gambling in a game already suffering from too much randomness and bloated rules.

**TheSilo**

vipoid wrote:
TheSilo wrote:
Considering that a Space Marine with a bolter has a less than 1/4 chance to kill a charging Imperial Guardsman, overwatch adds nothing but bloat and wasted time to the game.

Also, it doesn't add any tactical depth to the game. Being able to put a unit on overwatch instead of shooting (and then get to shoot at full BS if an enemy assaults it) would at least add some options.

As it stands, there's no option - just a bit more gambling in a game already suffering from too much randomness and bloated rules.

Exalt button y you only work once?!

**Bora77**

Overwatch makes little sense to me, and believe me my army benefits a lot from it (Eldar).

To balance things it should be:

* Overwatching unit gets lower initiative in following CC
* assaulting unit should be able to choose 1 additional attack in CC OR one free snapshot per weapon while charging...

another approach would be to factor in the view direction of the minis. i.e. when they get assaulted in the side or rear, they get no overwatch!