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To be fair, a long-las is, in game terms, a sniper rifle, and therefore Rending.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
To be fair, a long-las is, in game terms, a sniper rifle, and therefore Rending.

Haven't we already established that game mechanics are BS and should not be mentioned in a fluff debate?

Yeah, but people were complaining about their ability to kill Marines on the table top. :p

Bleh.

Anyway, the problem with Wyches is that they don't belong on a battlefield at all. It's like trying to take the Dread Pirate Roberts and throw him at a Napoleonic gunline. He may be drawn with Inigo Montoya for the title of "greatest swordsman on the planet", but there's really not much he can do against a napoleonic gunline in plate armour.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Actually, the rules are alright regarding to the fluff, when you ignore some of the stuff.

I am not surprised you would say that about IGhammer 40K.

Wouldn't it be funny if the game was more like the fluff, though?

Well, if you go by the part I quoted, it already is pretty close, in that book the Marines died to weapons that either vaporize or go straight through their armor/through some weakness in the armor, they kill a lot of the partisans who in return do little damage, but the specialist troops with the right gear kill them without much trouble. Feels appropriate, like on TT where if you keep your plasma/melta gunners protected you'll have a chance to kill some Marines.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Actually, the rules are alright regarding to the fluff, when you ignore some of the stuff.

I am not surprised you would say that about IGhammer 40K.

Wouldn't it be funny if the game was more like the fluff, though?

Well, if you go by the part I quoted, it already is pretty close, in that book the Marines died to weapons that either vaporize or go straight through their armor/through some weakness in the armor, they kill a lot of the partisans who in return do little damage, but the specialist troops with the right gear kill them without much trouble. Feels appropriate, like on TT where if you keep your plasma/melta gunners protected you'll have a chance to kill some Marines.

You agree with the part where there's 5 Marines vs 500 Guardsmen and the book says it wasn't even close to a fair fight?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Wrong book, I was talking about the swamp ambush in Traitor General

One chance. One shot. Rawne was no marksman, not like Larkin. He wasn’t even practiced with
the long-las. But it had a hotshot loaded and Rawne knew he had to make it count. He wouldn’t get
another.
The Chaos Marine’s flamer came up to roar again.
Rawne relaxed into the butt stock and fired.
Range was almost point-blank. The searing round took the Chaos Marine’s head clean off.

Still point blank, but the point stands, really, and a long las is still a light weapon.

"I know that it's explicitly stated within the text that the gun is using ammunition explicitly designed to kill Space Marines, but that doesn't mean anything!"

I wonder how he managed to get the shot off. The Chaos Marine should have killed both of them before Rawne could even get to aim, given how fast we know they are.

Because Plot Armor.

Ah yes, the Astra Militarum's deadliest advantage.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I wonder how he managed to get the shot off. The Chaos Marine should have killed both of them before Rawne could even get to aim, given how fast we know they are.

Guess they're not so quick then.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Actually, the rules are alright regarding to the fluff, when you ignore some of the stuff.

I am not surprised you would say that about IGhammer 40K.

Wouldn't it be funny if the game was more like the fluff, though?

Well, if you go by the part I quoted, it already is pretty close, in that book the Marines died to weapons that either vaporize or go straight through their armor/through some weakness in the armor, they kill a lot of the partisans who in return do little damage, but the specialist troops with the right gear kill them without much trouble. Feels appropriate, like on TT where if you keep your plasma/melta gunners protected you'll have a chance to kill some Marines.

You agree with the part where there's 5 Marines vs 500 Guardsmen and the book says it wasn't even close to a fair fight?

More like 50-60, depends what regiment and gear they have, and if you add tanks in the mix, the Marines should either field their own tanks or bring anti tank weapons of their own, not fething thread whip people -.-

 Bobthehero wrote:


Guess they're not so quick then.

But what if they are? What if the examples we have of Marines running 10 meters, vaulting a control table, and grabbing a guy in the time it takes for his heart to beat once is the truth, and your supposedly deadly hotshots are the propaganda?

More like 50-60, depends what regiment and gear they have, and if you add tanks in the mix, the Marines should either field their own tanks or bring anti tank weapons of their own, not fething thread whip people -.-

The quote explicitly said the IG were outnumbering the CSM 100 to 1.

In the right situation a group of numerically inferior yet superior in skill soldiers can achieve such kill ratios. Especially in this era of accurate repeating firearms. USMC got really high kill ratios against the IJA during the Pacific Theatre.

I do agree that the tread whipping part is silly, though.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
In the right situation a group of numerically inferior yet superior in skill soldiers can achieve such kill ratios. Especially in this era of accurate repeating firearms. USMC got really high kill ratios against the IJA during the Pacific Theatre.

I do agree that the tread whipping part is silly, though.

I don't think so at all. It was a warband of very decadent and sadistic CSM, and it is very like them to do something like that. Clearly, the remaining IG only really had lasguns, so the CSM could comfortably scythe them down at their own pace without worrying.

Had they still had plasma gunners or something of the like left, the CSM would surely have fought a bit more efficiently.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Thats hugely debatable. Marines are hugely more vulnerable to shooting in the lore.

Lolno.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/40k-source-and-feats-thread.235176/#post-8614291

Here, have some examples of what Marines can do.

Now look at the mediocre grunt he is in-game.

If we were to match the fluff, Space Marines would have movie marine stats, if not more.

For example, PA is entirely capable of resisting barrages of both Autocannons and Heavy Bolter shots, and laughs at lasguns.

Fallen Angels page 411 wrote:“Kohl and Ephrial exchanged fire with them, dropping several with well-aimed shots. A burst of heavy bolter fire answered them, stitching the two Astartes with a stream of shells. Both warriors staggered beneath the hits, but their armour turned aside the blows.”

That is really debatable... All the time i was reading Horus Heresy i always keep myself thinking "hey, marines dies like flies here". The great problem here is the old problem of any fictional world: to many authors, to few revisor.

But i still have not seem the "movie marine" in action, except when he is a Chapter Master, and them, Chapter Masters alredy have "movie marines" profile...

For wyches: what they lack is a Invunerable Save vs anything (4+ at least). That is the only thing they do in fluff that they dont do in rules (they leap and bounce, and dodge and parry...)

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
In the right situation a group of numerically inferior yet superior in skill soldiers can achieve such kill ratios. Especially in this era of accurate repeating firearms. USMC got really high kill ratios against the IJA during the Pacific Theatre.

I do agree that the tread whipping part is silly, though.

I don't think so at all. It was a warband of very decadent and sadistic CSM, and it is very like them to do something like that. Clearly, the remaining IG only really had lasguns, so the CSM could comfortably scythe them down at their own pace without worrying.

Had they still had plasma gunners or something of the like left, the CSM would surely have fought a bit more efficiently.

That or they didn't have the discipline to bring their arms to bear against them. Having 6 warp pumped super soldiers slaughtering your friends left and right reduces your willingness to fight.

What is the name of the warband in question?

Can we return to talking about wyches? I just wish their dodge save worked in overwatch and they had two attacks base.

40K's fluff is all supposed to be full of lies anyway, so how you're supposed to have a debate using it is a mystery to me.

I have identified the problem you guys are having. You read Death of Antagonis. You should have stopped about 10 or 12 pages in like I did.

I don't see any problem in 5 CSM winning a fight vs 500 guardsmen. They kill 20-30 and others fall back. You don't have to fight and kill every single one of them to win combat.

And more than that, the situation could be easilly represented on tabletop with one tiny modification - imagine all the guards forming 1 spread-out squad. 1 CSM dies from overwatch and others are behind blos. 4 csm charge in and kill the closest guards. 10-15 return attacks kill 0-1 marine. Guards loose combat, run away and get swept. It can be even done with 10 50-strong squads with some luck and decent blos terrain.

To get things back on track I don't think Wyches are elite close combat units at all. They're gladiatorial fighters not soldiers. I could see their value in being used against PDF or even Guardsmen but against career elite supersoldiers like the Marines? Nah.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
To get things back on track I don't think Wyches are elite close combat units at all. They're gladiatorial fighters not soldiers. I could see their value in being used against PDF or even Guardsmen but against career elite supersoldiers like the Marines? Nah.

Witches are quite elite compared to regular humans and they're definitely winning out a close combat vs an average eldar warrior. Remember, dark eldar are firstly pirates and raiders. They generally don't seek fights vs hard stuff. So, there are no major crunch fails in this case.

At last, people agree with the post I made back at the top of the page (after the one about the long-las).

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
You cannot make rules purely from fluff.
Several units and models state alot in the fluff, but to make this possible in game it would be a huge advantage.

How would you propose to update wyches out of curiosity please?

Double their points cost.

Full inv save on overwatch and reduced 5+ inv on shooting.

Either rending or poison attacks so that they can actually hurt something. If I need twice the points of an enemy tactical squad to kill it in CC then something has went seriously wrong.

Give them access to wych weapons that reduce enemy ws to 1. Like they had last edition to deal with MC and Dreadnaughts.

Damn... that's actually a pretty good response haha

A Wych Cult is not (should not) be the weapon-of-choice for taking out MCs or MC-equivalents on a battlefield. That's what vehicle-mounted heavy weapons are for. A mostly-naked Space Elf is not who you want going after a thirty-five-feet-tall killer robot.

In an arena? Certainly. It's entertaining and exciting. It just doesn't have a place on the battlefield.

Against other infantry-type characters? Yes. Though I'd say give them a 3++ or even 2++ on the Charge (which should get the majority of the unit into combat, as they skip/jump/dance/pirouette/twerk their way through Overwatch fire), and Poison and/or Rending on their melee attacks.

Probably base 2 attacks on the charge, +1 for extra CCW if they pair knives/glaives/klaives/neurowhips/spiked paddles, whatever. And maybe some kind of grenade, like the old hallucinogen grenades, that reduces enemy I, WS, S, Ld or some other stat (might even be a random effect, depending on the type of hallucinogen used).

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
How would you propose to update wyches out of curiosity please?

A. Drop the price to closer to 7 points, leave as is.
Compare to a 9 point Daemonette, who has +1 WS, -1I +1A -1Ld 5+ Invul save all the time vs 4+ Invul in CC. Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, and Daemon of Slaanesh- Rending, +3" to run

B. Drop to 8 points, Increase WS to 5, reduce BS to 3.

C. Drop them to 9 points, give them Rending. Basic Eldar guardians get a version of Rending when they shoot. And it is fluffy for Wyches, precision slashes with their knives and such

D. Drop them to 9 points, Change their save to 5++, 4++ in close combat.

E. Keep them at 10 points, give them Rending, and make the 4++ dodge work during the entire Combat phase, not just the Fight subphase (so works vs Overwatch)

I like all of those, I think D is the best as it also fits with Lelith, as a lesser version of her dodge ability.

but I guess it was not to meant to be, maybe someone in the "studio" had an unbeatable wych army way back when and someone working on the codex had the fear of the dark kin from 20 years ago, who knows.

Say that overwatch and assault moves happen in initiative order.

Duh.

That would be a better fix to Assault/OW game-wide... but it also tends to penalize the slower-acting choppy units, and heavily favors armies with above-average I scores across the board, in both OW and Assault. They shoot before assault gets to them, and assault before the enemy can shoot.

That might be a bit much.