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So Sir Arun started a wonderful thread that started with thoughtful discussion about what, in the Eldar 'dex, makes Eldar OP.

The vast majority seemed to identify the Serpent's shooting as, at least, the worst offender. Some see whether the Serpent is OP or not as still up for debate. That thread is still going, but further discussion is difficult, because any discussion returns to 'Serpents are OP'. Lots of intelligent, thoughtful people on Dakka, so let's leave that active discussion there, and pick up the conversations it is obstructing here.

Specifically, let's assume that, either the Serpent Shield is nerfed to 12" range, or the Serpent isn't taken at all. Is Eldar still OP, and if so, where, how, and what should be done?

The points that are still heavily debated seem to be:

-Wraithknight
-Guardian Jetbikes
-Jetseers
-Eldar Psykers
-Battle focus
-Bladestorm
-Falcons
-Scytheguard

Seems to me that, with the Serpent handled, Eldar are still strong, but not OP. However, a few other changes would help balance it out a bit more appropriately:
-WraithKnight (and its relatives - dread, imperial, and riptides) should be LoWs
-Jetbikes should confer a 4+, and Windriders should need 5+ to be troops

There are other changes I'd like to see, but aren't necessarily about balancing.

The other things I listed, I believe to be balanced.

Thoughts (not about the Serpent)?

Regarding your proposed changes.

First I agree that with the exception of Tyranids, any non-Flyer on the large oval base (Wraithknight, Dreadknight, Riptide, etc.) should be a LOW choice. As it is, I'v rarely seen more than 1 per army, and for some that frees up an extra slot .

Regarding Jetbikes. Since at least 3rd edition Eldar Jetbikes conferred a 3+ armour save. Personally I think it's silly that a 1 point bump to WS and BS, and pseudo-rending is worth negative 5 points, but oh well.

It might be a weird statement but I actually stopped playing them. I feel like I am playing with an unfair advantage when I play with my friends. So they are shelved until their power level is reduced... In the meantime I'll stick to my orks and space marines.

I know... its weird... but I come from a RPG game master background and I always feel like I am preparing an "Encounter" for my friends to fight when I build my list. So my list needs to be a challange, but beatable!

With or without the Serpent being "fixed", I don't think the Eldar are OP. They are very strong right now, and certain builds are certainly OP. But, in a tournament scene people are playing to win prizes, and will bring the best possible list.

The only times I ever see Serpent-spam, or Deathstars in a non-tournament setting, is when people want to try their army out for an upcoming tournament and ask to play strong lists.

To be honest I think everything would be fine if the Serpents shield range was reduced or it had lower Strength.

Just fix the obviously overpowered Wave Serpents and Eldar are good to go.

Yeah, serpents need fixing, but that's about it. I think the rest of the eldar book is fine.

As for large models becoming LoWs, it would fix nothing. Multi-CAD would still allow spamming and IK can still be spammed too, you just need to bring them as a primary detachment. And I love seeing those models on the table. Then again, I am biased I do play pure IK...

IMO, the ghost helm is pretty ridiculous worded in the new 7th psyker phase. So that needs a fix.
Also, increase the points for the troop Eldar jetbikes and I'm okay with them. Currently they're just too cheap for what they do.
I think laser lock is a stupid mechanic, but I've learned to tolerate them many editions ago, they still annoy me though.
The only real problem I have with the Wraith Knight is its mobility but in all honesty, if it was up to me, I'd have the Wraith Knigths/Riptide/and the like remade as walkers.
The Wraith Knight should be immune to shaken and stunned (because of that dead spirit thing that guides the pilot, or what ever it is), the riptide should have the same with the stimulant injectors upgrade and its shield should be able to supercharge it to (in addition to the 5++) ignore weapon destroyed results on 3+.
The MC status on those kinds of things are ridiculous beyond belief and gives them an advantage that is stupendous, when compared to other walkers.

What has been fixed about Serpent Shield though? Am I missing something?

Nothing. The intent of this thread was to allow discussion to cover the Eldar dex without everything coming down to 'Serpent is OP'. If I'm misreading things, and other stuff I'm bringing is pissing off my opponents, I'd like to know.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just fix the obviously overpowered Wave Serpents and Eldar are good to go.

This.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just fix the obviously overpowered Wave Serpents and Eldar are good to go.

This.

pretty much - but the Banshee also need fixing - the other way, Making Acrobaitc allow them to assualt out of Vehicles for instance.

its pretty much only die hard WAAC Appologists like Morgorth that defend Cheese Serpents.........and he is, and I will be generous herre bending the rules - like claiming his Eldar jet bikes can run.................... Most Eldar players (like me) acknowledge that the WS is broken and just OP.

Also jetbikes should not be troops.

WS nerf, no troop jetbikes, maybe LoW the wraithknight (we got wraithlords in HS already, and the WK is on a whole other level even compared to riptides) and small buffs for the underdogs (banshees, avatar, the failer phoenix) and the eldar codex is good to go.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also jetbikes should not be troops.

WS nerf, no troop jetbikes, maybe LoW the wraithknight (we got wraithlords in HS already, and the WK is on a whole other level even compared to riptides) and small buffs for the underdogs (banshees, avatar, the failer phoenix) and the eldar codex is good to go.

Completely agreed. I limit myself to 1-2 wave serpents, but would really love to be able to bring Maugan Ra or Jain Zar and her gals without feeling like I'm playing a 1500 point list against an 1850 list. Every codex has some of those types of things though, so this is pretty understandable.

I just think the waves need to be fixed rainbow arc firing a with a no cap on how many you bring. Its a free heavy that is superman. I think if they balance that then the rest of the army becomes easy to deal with. when someone can have 3 wrath knights + 4 wave serps that when things are out of hand.

The problem with Eldar is that they dish out as much ranged firepower as Tau or IG but from highly durable platforms that can all move 12" and fire with almost full effectiveness. If you can get in their face, they can easily take a turn to shift and then stab you in the back. And most of said firepower can be twin-linked. It's not any one thing, it's the combination of a bunch of smaller things; like wraithknights that no weapon really has the VOF to bring down (except grav) but cannot be ignored due to their damage output, cheap troops having pseudo-rending, wave serpents having S6/7 guns that can be twin-linked if a twin-linked gun hits the target, OS troops that can move 48" in a turn with a 3+ save, and having a normal 12" move on the stuff with the biggest guns. They have the tools in a basic list to deal with any threat due to high VOF on high S guns.

If you took away wave serpents in their current form it would knock them down a notch, but so would taking away wraithknights. Or just making scatter lasers not twin-link and taking away bladestorm. There are a lot of ways to do it; I agree though that wave serpents are the worst offenders.

Without Serpent, they will suck hard, unless you are bringing those cheesy 3 Wraithknight lists. Seriously, no dedicated transport is huge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, there are 2 more things that need to be tweaked, if the Wave Serpent is getting any nerf in the future: all flying monstrous creatures and Necron Night Scythes.
The Helldrade used to be OP, but the Vector Strike rule and the Torrent rule have impaired it a little bit.

Keep the Serpent as a DT then. Its job is to move Space Elves from Point A to Point B. It's not a heavy weapons platform.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also jetbikes should not be troops..

I never understand this one, why should the Eldar not be allowed them when Space Marine's can field 2 armies with bikes as troops, I believe 2 of Terminators alone, through forgeworld nothing but Dreadnoughts, or Guard with nothing but tanks?

They have all of 12" with their twin linked catapults. The only heavy upgrade they get is the cannon. But IOM can bring all sorts of nifty heavier weapons, or on foot carry weapons that fire from the other side of the table. Of which you might jink save. But for the most part, everything they fire is at a distance twice that of the Eldars.

I take it the buff they get on the bike over when they are on foot is because they are experts at handling their vehicle, they're not cumbersome things like the Space Marine's bikes. People probably take the bikes because of the better save and a bit of mobility next to foot slogging everywhere that makes them easy kills if they have no transport or cover. I doubt many take guardians alone for their survivability. More they are one of the only ways to get a heavy weapon upgrade, which is one of the only available ways to do anything about tanks and better saving troops at a distance. I think Dark Reapers are the only foot based guys who carry something which can do good damage at distance of more than12". Even the Avatar can only throw his weapon a short distance.

Not saying that Eldar don't have things which make them difficult but they have a lot which needs to be compensated for.

Phew, this Eldar bashing is starting to sound like a broken record.

bibotot wrote:

Anyway, there are 2 more things that need to be tweaked, if the Wave Serpent is getting any nerf in the future: all flying monstrous creatures and Necron Night Scythes.
The Helldrade used to be OP, but the Vector Strike rule and the Torrent rule have impaired it a little bit.

Uhh, what's so bad about Flying Monstrous Creatures? They've been nerfed a good bit with 7th edition already. And Night Scythes could do with a points increase, but otherwise there isn't anything glaringly OP about them.

 krodarklorr wrote:

bibotot wrote:

Anyway, there are 2 more things that need to be tweaked, if the Wave Serpent is getting any nerf in the future: all flying monstrous creatures and Necron Night Scythes.
The Helldrade used to be OP, but the Vector Strike rule and the Torrent rule have impaired it a little bit.

Uhh, what's so bad about Flying Monstrous Creatures? They've been nerfed a good bit with 7th edition already. And Night Scythes could do with a points increase, but otherwise there isn't anything glaringly OP about them.

Demon princes, especially the nurgle variant got a hella buffed with break dancing jink save while on the ground Personally they should of left it as if its walkin no jink but i dont think they will its annoying but not impossible to deal with.

Price increase for scythes is probably imminent as well as alot of changes to the disembarking and embarking system. and near guaranteed tesla nerf when snapfiring.

 greyknight12 wrote:
The problem with Eldar is that they dish out as much ranged firepower as Tau or IG but from highly durable platforms that can all move 12" and fire with almost full effectiveness. If you can get in their face, they can easily take a turn to shift and then stab you in the back. And most of said firepower can be twin-linked. It's not any one thing, it's the combination of a bunch of smaller things; like wraithknights that no weapon really has the VOF to bring down (except grav) but cannot be ignored due to their damage output, cheap troops having pseudo-rending, wave serpents having S6/7 guns that can be twin-linked if a twin-linked gun hits the target, OS troops that can move 48" in a turn with a 3+ save, and having a normal 12" move on the stuff with the biggest guns. They have the tools in a basic list to deal with any threat due to high VOF on high S guns.

If you took away wave serpents in their current form it would knock them down a notch, but so would taking away wraithknights. Or just making scatter lasers not twin-link and taking away bladestorm. There are a lot of ways to do it; I agree though that wave serpents are the worst offenders.

Taking away Bladestorm would be a HUGE nerf. Remember Guardians have 12" range weapons.

Mymearan wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
The problem with Eldar is that they dish out as much ranged firepower as Tau or IG but from highly durable platforms that can all move 12" and fire with almost full effectiveness. If you can get in their face, they can easily take a turn to shift and then stab you in the back. And most of said firepower can be twin-linked. It's not any one thing, it's the combination of a bunch of smaller things; like wraithknights that no weapon really has the VOF to bring down (except grav) but cannot be ignored due to their damage output, cheap troops having pseudo-rending, wave serpents having S6/7 guns that can be twin-linked if a twin-linked gun hits the target, OS troops that can move 48" in a turn with a 3+ save, and having a normal 12" move on the stuff with the biggest guns. They have the tools in a basic list to deal with any threat due to high VOF on high S guns.

If you took away wave serpents in their current form it would knock them down a notch, but so would taking away wraithknights. Or just making scatter lasers not twin-link and taking away bladestorm. There are a lot of ways to do it; I agree though that wave serpents are the worst offenders.

Taking away Bladestorm would be a HUGE nerf. Remember Guardians have 12" range weapons.

A. Nobody uses Guardians, remember? B. Dire Avengers have 18" guns that fire TWO shots, so better than rapid fire already. C. Both A and B can run and shoot, and have fleet. Pretty much negates the range penalty.

Remember this one time a guy made an eldar OP thread and specifically said not to mention wave serpents? There's another thread to vent about that crap.

Avatar is an amazing close combat beast... if you're stupid enough to let him into close combat. I think he needs the option to buy some kind of guard, like a Hive Tyrant has.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Remember this one time a guy made an eldar OP thread and specifically said not to mention wave serpents? There's another thread to vent about that crap.

Avatar is an amazing close combat beast... if you're stupid enough to let him into close combat. I think he needs the option to buy some kind of guard, like a Hive Tyrant has.

Eeeeeeh, the argument with that could be that a Hive Tyrant isn't as good in CC as an Avatar, and has less wounds, and no invlun.

Maybe it would be more fair to compare the Avatar to a Swarmlord... I don't have the new codex though. I ditched my army after they took away my favorite toy, Ymgarls.
He does still Instant Death with bone swords right?

 Pyeatt wrote:
Maybe it would be more fair to compare the Avatar to a Swarmlord... I don't have the new codex though. I ditched my army after they took away my favorite toy, Ymgarls.
He does still Instant Death with bone swords right?

Yeah, but lost his forcing the rerolls of successful invuln saves. But, back to the argument, I actually played my Eldar friend (He was running Footdar, because he's been having more fun with it), and my Swarmlord made it to combat with Wraithguard, then got charged by a Wraithlord and the Avatar, wiped them out with no hassle. So, yeah. But, he's also more expensive than the Avatar.

Eldar can run and shoot, but:
A. Guardians. 12" + run means 13-18 inches. Best-case, still vastly outranged by Boltguns. SMs get *2* rounds of shooting (albeit the first one is out of rapid fire range) before Guardians can shoot. And a single boltgun shot kills more than twice as many guardians as a Shuriken round kills Marines. And Guardians need to be within rapid fire range to shoot at all. Marines will remove buckets of Guardians before Guardians can even shoot. And even within 12", Marines win by more than 2:1, even without assaulting. For only about half again the cost (9ppm vs 13ppm for a CSM). battle focus mitigates, but does not eliminate, the range issue.

B. Dire Avengers cost Marines-sans-ATSKNF points (13 DA:13 CSM). For this, they are more maneuverable than Marines on foot, and better against 2+ armor or very-high-T models, and win versus Marines at 13-18 inches. The Boltgun shot is a little more deadly to a DA than Shirken round is to a Marine. On the other hand, marines win every other engement by a much wider margin (19+, 12-, melee). And can take Special and Heavy weapons that really change the equation. And carry Krak grenades, which can pen AV11, glance av12, and ID most footdar HQs. And can take things that can pen av10, and anything else (DAs cannot hurt av11+ in any way). Battle focus, again, mitigates the shorter range, but tops out at 6", which is needed just to tie range.


And all this compares them to Chaos Space Marines. Widely panned as not worth their points.

Eldar infantry play the short game. Much is made of all their AP 3/2, but remember that most of their weapons are 12" or 18" or 6" or 9".

 krodarklorr wrote:
A. Nobody uses Guardians, remember? B. Dire Avengers have 18" guns that fire TWO shots, so better than rapid fire already. C. Both A and B can run and shoot, and have fleet. Pretty much negates the range penalty.

Funny last time I checked, I used Guardians exclusively. I must be doing something wrong. No wonder I'm not winning against Tournament lists.