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Will anyone be brave enough to just answer the question?

 Manchu wrote:
So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

I will need more data. What will raping give as opposed to killing? Define "better."

Better = more acceptable, morally and socially speaking.

I don't know how to answer your question about what rape "will give." Do you mean, like XP and GP? I guess sure if that's what motivates you to play D&D.

This stuff may appear harmless, but as has been said it's insidious in it's goal of changing things from the inside. Not to mention the societal pressure around lately to conform to these standards. Equality is great, forced politicization of hobbies is not and it's happening a lot. There's some pushback finally though it seems with gamergate, Maher and Harris on Real Time and the last South Park episode all calling out the extreme left.

The huge fuss over rape but complete acceptance of murder really grinds my gears when murder is so much worse. It's strongest in America, but sadly a lot of the entertainment is made in America and it bleeds into the rest of the anglosphere very readily anyway.

Specifically regarding rape in RPGs, there shouldn't be a problem with it so long as it's handled according to the audience. If you're an adult GMing for a bunch of kids, you should probably ban it. Adults that want a more realistic world in my experience haven't shied away from rape being part of the setting, and when we played neutral and evil characters in Dark Sun - a very savage setting - it was handled "off stage" as mentioned. We knew it was going on, we didn't go into detail. I wouldn't judge people for reveling in it though if that's what the group wanted, RPGs are escapism, you do things that you can't do in real life. It's good to be bad!

 Manchu wrote:
Will anyone be brave enough to just answer the question?

 Manchu wrote:
So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

What would anyone have to gain by giving an answer to such a patiently loaded question, based on a false dichotomy, and then have to rationalize out for you exactly why in their opinion either;
- rape is preferable to murder
- murder is preferable to rape

 Yonan wrote:
The huge fuss over rape but complete acceptance of murder really grinds my gears when murder is so much worse.

 Manchu wrote:
So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

 Manchu wrote:
Will anyone be brave enough to just answer the question?

 Manchu wrote:
So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

This might be a sidestep, but I find the concept behind games you can describe as "a game about X," where X is something that can be expressed within the limitations of the end of that sentence, excessively boring. I'm not (hero's name), (verb) of (noun). I'm (hero's name), a complicated character that's developed through great and terrible things happening around him in a world that has a lot things trying to shift in different directions, all at once. Things are more complicated than just "I always move forward and swing my sword". That's Gauntlet. A narrative is to be forged; Mono-thematic Candyland-like games would be relegated to a different time and audience, and the games my group play in are always a little more Game of Thrones and a little less WoW. As such, I cannot state that either of the options you offer sounds better than the other, because they both sound completely devoid of imagination and limited.

Of course, based upon the earlier posts in the thread, I'm sure that's your point.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
What would anyone have to gain by giving an answer to such a patiently loaded question, based on a false dichotomy, and then have to rationalize out for you exactly why in their opinion either;
- rape is preferable to murder
- murder is preferable to rape

If there is a false dichotomy, I am not the one who presented it. At least three or four posters have now made the argument that murder is worse than rape/rape is better than murder. So I would like to know -- when it comes to roleplaying games, is it better to play a game about killing orcs or is it better to play a game about raping orcs?

 daedalus wrote:
This might be a sidestep, but

Yes it is.

 daedalus wrote:
based upon the earlier posts in the thread, I'm sure that's your point.

Sort of. As I just mentioned, a lot of people are excusing rape in roleplaying games by arguing that real life murder is worse than real life rape. That is, their argument seems to be if it is okay to play a game about killing orcs then it is okay to play a game about raping orcs. And just following this line of argument to its logical conclusion, a game about raping orcs is actually better than a game about killing them.

But damned if it isn't hard to find one of them who will actually say it explicitly.

 Manchu wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
What would anyone have to gain by giving an answer to such a patiently loaded question, based on a false dichotomy, and then have to rationalize out for you exactly why in their opinion either;
- rape is preferable to murder
- murder is preferable to rape

If there is a false dichotomy, I am not the one who presented it. At least three or four posters have now made the argument that murder is worse than rape/rape is better than murder. So I would like to know -- when it comes to roleplaying games, is it better to play a game about killing orcs or is it better to play a game about raping orcs?

Others may have entered it into the discussion, but you are the one who has taken that baton and ran it with zeal. You seem determined in your demand that members of the community answer a ridiculous question.

 Manchu wrote:
Will anyone be brave enough to just answer the question?

 Manchu wrote:
So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

What's more interesting: how did you come up with said question?

 Sigvatr wrote:
What's more interesting: how did you come up with said question?

You can review the last several pages of this thread at your convenience. I have also just explained it in the post above yours.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You seem determined in your demand that members of the community answer a ridiculous question.

As I just explained to you, the question itself is not ridiculous. The question rephrases the argument being made about rape and murder. If anything is ridiculous it is the notion that "murder is worse" arguments are relevant.

I can well understand why decent people would be hesitant to say they would rather rape orcs in D&D than kill orcs. But the same people keep posting about how killing is preferable to rape.

 Manchu wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
The huge fuss over rape but complete acceptance of murder really grinds my gears when murder is so much worse.

 Manchu wrote:
So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

I think it's the same - fictional.

 Manchu wrote:
Will anyone be brave enough to just answer the question?

 Manchu wrote:
So do you think a game about raping orcs is better than a game about killing them?

....Don't look at me like that. Somebody had to do it.

 Yonan wrote:
I think it's the same - fictional.

I did not ask about whether orcs and actions done to orcs are fictional. I asked about which is more morally and socially accpetable:

- game about raping orcs

- game about killing orcs

 Manchu wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
I think it's the same - fictional.

I did not ask about whether orcs and actions done to orcs are fictional. I asked about which is more morally and socially accpetable:

- game about raping orcs

- game about killing orcs

Can I tweak the question, or am I missing the point?

which is more morally and socially accpetable:

- game about raping orcs

- game about murdering orcs.

Another website trolls SJWs on the Internet!

Hilarity ensues!

@whemlby:

Sure, "murdering" is fine, too, if that's what you think is happening in D&D.

Are you willing to actually answer the question?

I played DnD a lot as a young 'un (14-19). Not once did the idea of raping an Orc even cross my mind. Having said that, every enemy I killed was a valid target. According to my GM anyway..

 Manchu wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
I think it's the same - fictional.

I did not ask about whether orcs and actions done to orcs are fictional. I asked about which is more morally and socially accpetable:

- game about raping orcs

- game about killing orcs

It is more socially acceptable to kill an Orc then to rape them. Rape is depicted as a crime more evil then murder.

nomotog wrote:
It is more socially acceptable to kill an Orc then to rape them. Rape is depicted as a crime more evil then murder.

Depicted by D&D you mean? Do you have a reference for that?

Also, in case the point has been diluted, my question is what YOU PERSONALLY find to be more morally and socially acceptable, not what some vague notion of society generally would hypothetically think.

I would rather get raped than killed at least with rape I get to live after.

 Cheesecat wrote:
I would rather get raped than killed at least with rape I get to live after.

Okay. With that in mind, are you willing to answer my question above?

I don't see how that changes the answer? The content of the game is fictional. The game with fictional orc rape should be just as acceptable as fictional orc murder. It is not, that is the problem.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It is more socially acceptable to kill an Orc then to rape them. Rape is depicted as a crime more evil then murder.

Depicted by D&D you mean? Do you have a reference for that?

Also, in case the point has been diluted, my question is what YOU PERSONALLY find to be more morally and socially acceptable, not what some vague notion of society generally would hypothetically think.

Depicted in general. The simple thing to do is point out people tend not to get too bothered by deceptions of killing, but they get very bothered by deceptions of rape and sexual assault. Society (at least the one I am apart of) has a lot of forms of more or less good killing. There are tons of justifications for killing someone. I can't think of any rape justifications that are accepted.

I do find murder more acceptable then rape, but that is asking if you would rather be punched in the face or punched in the gut. No option is a good one.

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of any rape justifications that are accepted.

"Murder is worse."

It's not a justification for any particular instance of rape but it seems to be the go-to excuse for depicting rape in games.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of any rape justifications that are accepted.

"Murder is worse."

It's not a justification for any particular instance of rape but it seems to be the go-to excuse for depicting rape in games.

That's not a justification. It's a way to defect criticism rather then dealing with it.

 Yonan wrote:
The game with fictional orc rape should be just as acceptable as fictional orc murder.

How about a game with fictional pedophilia? Is that just as acceptable?

By the way, are you okay with fictional murder?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
That's not a justification. It's a way to defect criticism rather then dealing with it.

We're on the same page.

 Manchu wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
I would rather get raped than killed at least with rape I get to live after.

Okay. With that in mind, are you willing to answer my question above?

Well morally as in my own morals, a game about killing orcs is worse than a game about raping orcs. But socially, a game about raping orcs is probably worse than a game about killing orcs as people seem to be more comfortable with the idea of killing than rape in fictional universes and

other media. I will add that there are a few exceptions where I think killing is OK such as in self-defense, abortion, protecting others, etc.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I can't think of any rape justifications that are accepted.

"Murder is worse."

It's not a justification for any particular instance of rape but it seems to be the go-to excuse for depicting rape in games.

You got it the wrong way, whether intentional or not - that'll be up for debate.

The comparison is not used to justify rape. Rape is suddenly being taken out as the uber evil thing in RPGs whereas murder is generally accepted for...no reason. And, as stated above, murder / killing in RPGs is mostly targeted at one gender: males. Which suddenly seems to be ok. As stated above: imagine a story where the group slaughters a group of female bandits. SJW would be lighting up their torches in the blink of an eye.

 Manchu wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
I think it's the same - fictional.

I did not ask about whether orcs and actions done to orcs are fictional. I asked about which is more morally and socially accpetable:

- game about raping orcs

- game about killing orcs

Is neither a valid answer? What is my character's motivation?
I mean, I want to say "game about killing orcs," because it's something I'm used to, but what if the orcs are doing their own thing in the village, having pleasant conversations about the weather?

Wouldn't that be just as bad?