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 Baiyuan wrote:
...
A-Z being limited to 5000 units is a bummer for eager customers, but reasonable for a private investor. Will it suck if I don't get one straight away? Yes! Will I be ok? Yes, and sooner or later I will have the book anyway and Joan will be released as a regular model as well.

I don't expect CB to pay Angel anything close to a five digit salary. The guy is basically working from his basement on this project. Cut him some slack.
With the massive request for this project, he would absolutely crazy if he didn't go into reproduction straight away. Come on, why would he pass on making the community and his bank account happy at the same time?
So bear with him, wait a freaking month or two and the world will be ok again....

Not to be overly quarrelsome, but... what makes you so certain "sooner or later I will have the book anyway"? It seems, protestations to the contrary by Angel, you've already determined that he will be doing follow up printings. Why?

The word here seems to be that this is it, with no planned reprinting. If you have information to the contrary, I'm certain we would like to hear it and your source for said information.

 Absolutionis wrote:
Someone listed this site as still having the book for preorder. It's Spanish.

http://www.goblintrader.es/reglamentos-y-plantillas/24884-master-class-angel-giraldez-vol-1.html

Yeah I did hours before somone posted it over at CB, but noone pays attention to the subforum so ohwell.


As for the nerd rage, thing are downright civil about the subject compaired to here.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to be overly quarrelsome, but... what makes you so certain "sooner or later I will have the book anyway"? It seems, protestations to the contrary by Angel, you've already determined that he will be doing follow up printings. Why?
The word here seems to be that this is it, with no planned reprinting. If you have information to the contrary, I'm certain we would like to hear it and your source for said information.

That's alright, mate. You don't come across quarrelsome at all.
Of course I don't have any actual insider info on the topic. So naturally my anticipation of a second production run might turn out to never happen.
What I meant to say though is that I can absolutely not imagine any reason for Angel not to follow up on the success. Seriously, why wouldn't he?

CB has been (over)using the "limited - never to be seen again" preorder incentive on every big release since Paradiso (Was there one before it? I don't recall.)
IIRC (and it's been a while, so correct me) Carlos Llauger has been saying stuff on BOW like "when it's gone, that's it" and people were led to believe Icestorm would limited to a couple thousand units.

In parts AG is using the same incentive, while having an actual reason to limit the number of units and that is to protect his neck financially.

The reason I am so convinced we will see reprints is linked to the question why AG is releasing the book in the first place:
option #1
He wants to show people what a great technique he has developed and how they can try to adapt it. If so, why would he want a very limited audience to enjoy it? Doesn't make sense.
option #2
Like option #1 plus he doesn't mind making some money at the same time. Even more obvious. There are people lining up, begging him to take their money.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but they would be out of their minds to intentionally piss off all their customers in excess of the fastest 5000 and to turn down money they just have to allow people to throw at them.
That's why I think people are getting overexcited. AG/CB will come around, even if they are still sticking to their limited nonsense for the moment.

I've said this before, and it's just spitballing, but we, and CB/AG don't know how much of the quick sell out was due to it being limited edition. If it was unlimited, who knows if it would've still sold as quick.

 DoomOnYou72 wrote:
Well feth that sucks all the way around. As for personal reasons to be upset does it really matter why people are upset when they seem to be in the majority. Not really

In the majority? If everyone who pre-ordered and is quite happy posted I don't think that would remotely be the case. I pre-ordered through my FLGS and am happy. I suspect that is true of many others who haven't posted on the issue. Several thousand infact.

Even if I hadn't landed one however, I still wouldn't be raging about the way it's been handled. CB aren't a huge company - Angel is just one guy who is clearly trying to deliver a previously untried product and it seems demand has been underestimated by a thousand or so, perhaps more. If I had to wait and hope for another print run I'd do so without the histrionics seen in some quarters round here.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I've said this before, and it's just spitballing, but we, and CB/AG don't know how much of the quick sell out was due to it being limited edition. If it was unlimited, who knows if it would've still sold as quick.

Or how much of it was due to the Joan of Arc sculpt. This is the danger in putting in a limited edition sculpt, you'll get a lot of people buying it for that and on-selling the book.

They could order a second run of 5,000 copies without the miniature, and due to the non-limited nature and lack of miniature, it could languish in a warehouse.

Customeeple's site will be back online past at 18:00CET due to "longer than expected" difficulties and supposedly they'll announce on Facebook when the book is available:
https://www.facebook.com/Customeeple

Giraldez himself has been advertising this company on Facebook as they make custom bases for him. I'd assume their book allocation isn't negligible.

Considering how the demand vastly outstripped the supply, I hope Angel and CB will reconsider their stance on only doing one printing of the book and model.

 Darkjim wrote:
CB aren't a huge company - Angel is just one guy who is clearly trying to deliver a previously untried product and it seems demand has been underestimated by a thousand or so, perhaps more.

I think this is their biggest problem right now. They see the growth in their sales but they're underestimating the potential growth on products people are waiting for.

There were a lot of people waiting for them to make a 2 player starter. They likely largely underestimated this with Icestorm, which is why the pre order outsold the initial print run and caused all hell with their production capacity for months.

There were a lot of people eager to try the game but wanted a cleaner ruleset. These people, and others who play the game already, were upset by the way N3 was handled and this can be seen by the quantity of newer players complaining about the product.

There's a lot of demand for people to know Angels dark painting secrets. They probably didn't expect that so many would want to try to reach his lofty heights, so threw in the Joan sculpt as an incentive. Now lots of people are complaining that they can't get the book because it was so limited.

What they need to do is actually understand that not only their playerbase has grown, but that they have a lot os potential customers waiting for them to make particular products. Do some market research and some longer sales forecasting to try to better handle these big releases.

DarkSoldier wrote:
Considering how the demand vastly outstripped the supply, I hope Angel and CB will reconsider their stance on only doing one printing of the book and model.

I have a feeling the book will be reprinted. I recall seeing something in one of the facebook announcements about how it will "never be re-edited" or something along those lines, which is only relevant if you were going to be printing more at a later date. As for the miniature, CB may keep a few back for prizes etc but if there is another print run of this book, I can't see that it will include the mini.

Considering how often it was reiterated there wouldn't be any additional print runs, I think the guy will stick to it. Reputation and integrity and what have you.

But it does say Vol.1 on the cover. Putting a Vol. 1 on something is not commonly done for something that is a one-off. It seems reasonable to conclude there will be a Vol.2 at some point, and while it might have an emphasis on lighting or weathering or whatever, chances are it will be mainly be more of the same things as in Vol.1.

I totally see Vol.2 being a limited print run and coming with another LE alternate sculpt though. Maybe a bit greasy, maybe not. Meh. We'll see.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I've said this before, and it's just spitballing, but we, and CB/AG don't know how much of the quick sell out was due to it being limited edition. If it was unlimited, who knows if it would've still sold as quick.

Are your implying that lying to create a peak in demand somehow excuses them? They could always say, this is a limited first run, but if demand is high enough we'll do another. It's down right bogus to say you will not do another run just to ensure initial demand spikes, which if they in fact do another run, very much is what they are doing.

As to the attitude in the thread, I don't see how anyone is out of line or nerd raging. BTW saying people are nerd raging despite being civil is trolling as far as I am concerned. I can't help but be stunned that people keep defending AG as if he is some sort of martyr here. He could have used crowd funding, seriously, I can't believe people keep glossing this fact over like him going to a Spanish bank for a personal loan wasn't a seriously stupid business decision. There is no legitimate excuse why if he in fact did this on his own he wouldn't use crowdfunding.

It is also strange people are acting as if this is separate from CB. This is clearly a joint production, you have to be seriously naive to believe otherwise. He is almost exclusively using infinity models and further he is using the studio models paint jobs. It's being cross promoted with a limited CB mini, and made available through their own site and distribution. In fact it's starting to make sense logically why he didn't go through crowd funding, and that's because it's so closely tied to CB.

Not trying to be negative or piss in any ones cereal, heck I supposedly got a copy from the Warstore, that doesn't make the handling of all this acceptable.

 Red Corsair wrote:

There is no legitimate excuse why if he in fact did this on his own he wouldn't use crowdfunding.

Really? It's like you've never considered what the Kickstarter comments page looks like for the people running a project.

Option #1: Get loan, print book, pay printer for book, sell book to distributor, pay off loan, be done. Distribution process deals with the rest.

Option #2: Start crowdfunding campaign, deal with crowdfunding people, collect most of the pledges (except for the pledges that didn't go through), deal with the requests to pay for the book after the crowdfunding project ends, pay printer for book, mail out the book to five thousand individual backers, read e-mail and deal with the various missing packages, misprints, etc., wonder if you're ever going to be done.

As someone who recently got a project funded through KS, it's really not that demanding if you're prepared. You'll get some people complaining and not reading announcements, but other than that it's pretty non-burdensome. You don't need to deal with people who don't pay (that's amazon's job), and don't need to deal with late backers unless you prefer to. There's nothing saying you can't shop out delivery if you get enough that it's necessary, either.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I've said this before, and it's just spitballing, but we, and CB/AG don't know how much of the quick sell out was due to it being limited edition. If it was unlimited, who knows if it would've still sold as quick.

Are your implying that lying to create a peak in demand somehow excuses them? They could always say, this is a limited first run, but if demand is high enough we'll do another. It's down right bogus to say you will not do another run just to ensure initial demand spikes, which if they in fact do another run, very much is what they are doing.

What are you on about, I never said anything about lying? As far as we know, this is the only run. They haven't said they're doing more, people are speculating that they will, but so far they haven't lied about anything...

All I'm saying is if it wasn't limited edition, or they did another print run or whatever, it might not sell as well, because we, and them, don't know how much of its quick sell out was due to the fact it was limited edition, or the model that came with it. So it might be risky to reprint it because then it's not LE and it might just sit there not selling. I don't think that would happen, but it might.

I don't think they will rerun it, because they've said a few times now they won't. If they did now, well, then they'd have been lying.

CB is quite reasonable for a games company. They at least understand that ramping up production might increase short-time sales, but might hurt them later when the demand goes down. They took the best approach: Ramp it only slightly up (level of expected steady demand) and stay clear of any financial trouble later.

The book will be LE, but parts of it might show up in later products that are not LE. That´s also quite normal.

CB's approach to N3. Quite good and in a decent time frame. The problem is some people with their instantly-mentality.

News? Where is it Angel's book, its discussion is here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/631548.page
(with apologies to Nuclear Messiah )

I will add that we do not know the terms of the deal he had with CB for the Jeanne D'Arc mini. I doubt they gave away 5500 miniatures. That is a big chunk of cash right there. CB will re-use the body, I'm guessing, and make new arms and head for the regular Jeanne D'arc. It'll be similar to the Bolt/Tabitha Cosplayer Bolt situation. This would keep the production costs down.

Anyway, the above, that CB has the molds ready for Jeanne D'Arc, leads me to believe that it will be a February release. And Teucer is the other unknown blister?

 NuclearMessiah wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
Someone listed this site as still having the book for preorder. It's Spanish.

http://www.goblintrader.es/reglamentos-y-plantillas/24884-master-class-angel-giraldez-vol-1.html

Yeah I did hours before somone posted it over at CB, but noone pays attention to the subforum so ohwell.


As for the nerd rage, thing are downright civil about the subject compaired to here.

Yes, I think it is time to take the Masterclass book discussion down to the Sub-Forum.

Unless, of course, someone has news of another source where people can purchase the book.

Thanks!

You're right, there has been enough of it in here.

I hope to not cross the line here with what I consider news:
German distributor Ulisses has given my FLGS a headsup, that the ordered number of books won't be delivered and that the available contingent will be evenly spread among the retailers by order date. First come, first served.
The owner of my FLGS expects/guesses to receive about 5 of the 25 books he ordered.

 Red Harvest wrote:
News? Where is it Angel's book, its discussion is here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/631548.page
(with apologies to Nuclear Messiah )

I will add that we do not know the terms of the deal he had with CB for the Jeanne D'Arc mini. I doubt they gave away 5500 miniatures. That is a big chunk of cash right there. CB will re-use the body, I'm guessing, and make new arms and head for the regular Jeanne D'arc. It'll be similar to the Bolt/Tabitha Cosplayer Bolt situation. This would keep the production costs down.

Anyway, the above, that CB has the molds ready for Jeanne D'Arc, leads me to believe that it will be a February release. And Teucer is the other unknown blister?

This please ^. Rather not sift through pages of CD hate in the news section

 Red Harvest wrote:
News? Where is it Angel's book, its discussion is here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/631548.page
(with apologies to Nuclear Messiah )

I will add that we do not know the terms of the deal he had with CB for the Jeanne D'Arc mini. I doubt they gave away 5500 miniatures. That is a big chunk of cash right there. CB will re-use the body, I'm guessing, and make new arms and head for the regular Jeanne D'arc. It'll be similar to the Bolt/Tabitha Cosplayer Bolt situation. This would keep the production costs down.

Anyway, the above, that CB has the molds ready for Jeanne D'Arc, leads me to believe that it will be a February release. And Teucer is the other unknown blister?

Actually I posted the links in the deal finder thread

Infinity News

Miniaturemarket.com is running a promotion that earns you 10x points right now on infinity figures thru the 6th of February. Also stopped in there and asked them about the painting book to see if/how many they will get. The still don't know and neither does their distributor . Points are saved under your account and normally accrue at 1 pt per dollar spent. Each point is a penny off a future order.

if they're not getting them direct I suspect they aren't getting any, not now anyway

 Theophony wrote:
Infinity News

Miniaturemarket.com is running a promotion that earns you 10x points right now on infinity figures thru the 6th of February. Also stopped in there and asked them about the painting book to see if/how many they will get. The still don't know and neither does their distributor . Points are saved under your account and normally accrue at 1 pt per dollar spent. Each point is a penny off a future order.

Warstore is their distributor and they already did their preorders, so.... who knows.

 NuclearMessiah wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Infinity News

Miniaturemarket.com is running a promotion that earns you 10x points right now on infinity figures thru the 6th of February. Also stopped in there and asked them about the painting book to see if/how many they will get. The still don't know and neither does their distributor . Points are saved under your account and normally accrue at 1 pt per dollar spent. Each point is a penny off a future order.

Warstore is their distributor and they already did their preorders, so.... who knows.

Do you have proof of that? Because I live near (2miles from MM) and stop by them regularly. The get stuff direct from manufacturers a lot and they carry stuff thewarstore.com doesn't. Plus they price under Neal on a lot of stuff, I'd have a hard time believing Neal would be all for that.

Also they got operation:icestorm before Neal did. I think they also got N3 first too.

 Theophony wrote:

 NuclearMessiah wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Infinity News

Miniaturemarket.com is running a promotion that earns you 10x points right now on infinity figures thru the 6th of February. Also stopped in there and asked them about the painting book to see if/how many they will get. The still don't know and neither does their distributor . Points are saved under your account and normally accrue at 1 pt per dollar spent. Each point is a penny off a future order.

Warstore is their distributor and they already did their preorders, so.... who knows.

Do you have proof of that? Because I live near (2miles from MM) and stop by them regularly. The get stuff direct from manufacturers a lot and they carry stuff thewarstore.com doesn't. Plus they price under Neal on a lot of stuff, I'd have a hard time believing Neal would be all for that.

Also they got operation:icestorm before Neal did. I think they also got N3 first too.

e-figures is both their distributer.

Noir wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 NuclearMessiah wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Infinity News

Miniaturemarket.com is running a promotion that earns you 10x points right now on infinity figures thru the 6th of February. Also stopped in there and asked them about the painting book to see if/how many they will get. The still don't know and neither does their distributor . Points are saved under your account and normally accrue at 1 pt per dollar spent. Each point is a penny off a future order.

Warstore is their distributor and they already did their preorders, so.... who knows.

Do you have proof of that? Because I live near (2miles from MM) and stop by them regularly. The get stuff direct from manufacturers a lot and they carry stuff thewarstore.com doesn't. Plus they price under Neal on a lot of stuff, I'd have a hard time believing Neal would be all for that.

Also they got operation:icestorm before Neal did. I think they also got N3 first too.

e-figures is both their distributer.

Derp you are right, Warstore does wholesale to other stores though.

As for who got what first, it largly depends on where you live, I got my copy of N3 from Neal the day of release who overnightd it free of charge, I know other members here who ordered from MM did not receive it as quick. As for Ice storm I can not say since I did not get in on that mess, howoever fun note MM still has copies of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bug it begs the question, if e-figures supplies both, why did Warstore do a preorder of Angel's book and MM didn't? If e-figures is not releasing stock numbers yet.

Either Neal is jumping the gun or maybe he has another distributor.

It's likely MM didn't have a choice.

E-figures is actually a part of The Warstore, they use some legal technicalities to hide it, but e-figures stock is pretty much the same as The Warstore, it's basically their warehouse.

So, if something is popular, The Warstore will just sell it out from their website, and hold back on e-figures shipments to other stores. It's how The Warstore itself was so on the ball with N3 books and releases, meanwhile people were waiting for e-figures orders to come in.

This is pretty illegal, but it seems to be a common shady business tactic. I've seen it first hand in a few jobs I've had over the years.

 Vertrucio wrote:
It's likely MM didn't have a choice.

E-figures is actually a part of The Warstore, they use some legal technicalities to hide it, but e-figures stock is pretty much the same as The Warstore, it's basically their warehouse.

So, if something is popular, The Warstore will just sell it out from their website, and hold back on e-figures shipments to other stores. It's how The Warstore itself was so on the ball with N3 books and releases, meanwhile people were waiting for e-figures orders to come in.

This is pretty illegal, but it seems to be a common shady business tactic. I've seen it first hand in a few jobs I've had over the years.

Ahhh just beat me to it, I was doing some reading and saw that they are one and the same, they even have the same address.

SO my orgignal comment stands, as for why MM has more things, Warstore only distributes Minis, you can check the e-figures site to see which. Also I think I recall that e-figures is the largest or perhaps only distributor of Infinity in the US.

My policy when it comes to ordering is I preorder from Wastore, for the reason Vertrucio stated, and anything that has been on the shelf awhile I grab from MM, for the cheaper prices.

As for the prices difference, It all comes down to the stores policies on discount pricing, what ever price They sell to MM for I am sure is the same price they use to base their profit mark-up and subsequent % knock off, MM just chooses to make less per sale then Warstore is all.


Anyways enough business talk I await News.

 NuclearMessiah wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 NuclearMessiah wrote:

 Theophony wrote:
Infinity News

Miniaturemarket.com is running a promotion that earns you 10x points right now on infinity figures thru the 6th of February. Also stopped in there and asked them about the painting book to see if/how many they will get. The still don't know and neither does their distributor . Points are saved under your account and normally accrue at 1 pt per dollar spent. Each point is a penny off a future order.

Warstore is their distributor and they already did their preorders, so.... who knows.

Do you have proof of that? Because I live near (2miles from MM) and stop by them regularly. The get stuff direct from manufacturers a lot and they carry stuff thewarstore.com doesn't. Plus they price under Neal on a lot of stuff, I'd have a hard time believing Neal would be all for that.

Also they got operation:icestorm before Neal did. I think they also got N3 first too.

e-figures is both their distributer.

Derp you are right, Warstore does wholesale to other stores though.

As for who got what first, it largly depends on where you live, I got my copy of N3 from Neal the day of release who overnightd it free of charge, I know other members here who ordered from MM did not receive it as quick. As for Ice storm I can not say since I did not get in on that mess, howoever fun note MM still has copies of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bug it begs the question, if e-figures supplies both, why did Warstore do a preorder of Angel's book and MM didn't? If e-figures is not releasing stock numbers yet.

Either Neal is jumping the gun or maybe he has another distributor.

Well I'm guessing it does help if family members run a distributor company of the same products you sell in your store front.

Ninja.