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I know I'd like that too - and I'm still hoping for an N3 'fan re-edit' that does this, even in CB won't Officially do it!

 Alpharius wrote:
I know I'd like that too - and I'm still hoping for an N3 'fan re-edit' that does this, even in CB won't Officially do it!

Hope that does happen. Would be really useful.

 carlos13th wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think a fair number of players were disappointed that the N3 book did not pull in Paradiso & the Human Sphere books to produce an all in one (even if they only put in the rules section from the latter two),

It's all well and good that the rules are on line but a lot of us like print rule books and when you then have to think about buying 3 to get the full game your into GW territory of rules + codex + codex etc

Have to admit still a bit dissapointed about that myself.

Aww well too late now.

Same here. I posted that when it was announced but was told by my betters ITT that I was apparently wrong. I would have also preferred a full rulebook in the Icestorm starter but would have accepted THAT one not having Paradiso and Human Sphere stuff though. In both cases, I was disappointed and as a result haven't bought anything yet. At this point, I'm just waiting for a few models (mainly one particular one) to ultimately decide.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think a fair number of players were disappointed that the N3 book did not pull in Paradiso & the Human Sphere books to produce an all in one (even if they only put in the rules section from the latter two),

It's all well and good that the rules are on line but a lot of us like print rule books and when you then have to think about buying 3 to get the full game your into GW territory of rules + codex + codex etc

Isn't the wiki going to have everything integrated whenever it is finished?
It's not a proper rulebook, but that wiki helped me learn the previous edition far better than reading the rules ever did.
The current N3 book may not be complete in its exclusion of HS & C, but it's a huge help having the rules written clearly and concisely. It reads like a text book.
The last edition of rules was impossible to read once and understand. It was only easy because we had years to digest and bicker over interpretations.

For newbies the current N3 rulebook really helps, including the other ones would not have helped and with N3 and IO we got a lot of newbies.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
For newbies the current N3 rulebook really helps, including the other ones would not have helped and with N3 and IO we got a lot of newbies.

Having all the rules in one place would have helped newbies a great deal. Instead you have newbies buying rule books and starter sets with no idea that the profiles for their sectorial are not in the book they just bought. That when the guys in the local game shop start talking about fire teams the rules for them are not in their book. So then they buy the expansions to understand the rules. But now some rules apply some dont because they expansions are outdated but not fully outdated. Now they need to work reference the FAQ and see what applys and what doesn't and keep that in mind when reference the rules. Sounds much easier for newbies.

Not sure how you can claim that making the information needed to play and understand the game harder to find some how helps newbies.

Well, before one learns fire teams one better should learn the basics. Overwhelming newbies does not help.

Also we are in a transition period where some info is in old books but in the not so far future will be found in new books.
The rules in HS and OP are still additional rules, no core rules, though we use them often of course.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Well, before one learns fire teams one better should learn the basics. Overwhelming newbies does not help.

Or maybe Fireteam rules shouldn't be so bloody complex in the first place?

Also we are in a transition period where some info is in old books but in the not so far future will be found in new books.

Acheron Falls is the only book on the horizon. Corvus Belli has stated that they want to retain HS and CP as "viable product", so unless you know something that everyone else doesn't--your statement is plain wrong.

The rules in HS and OP are still additional rules, no core rules, though we use them often of course.

Uh, ALEPH and Tohaa would disagree with you about "no core rules".

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Well, before one learns fire teams one better should learn the basics. Overwhelming newbies does not help.

Also we are in a transition period where some info is in old books but in the not so far future will be found in new books.
The rules in HS and OP are still additional rules, no core rules, though we use them often of course.

So put them in an advanced rules section of the book and suggest they dont use them until they have a grip on the basics.

Making noob's trawl back and forward between books and FAQ's to learn the full rules that people will be using against them isn't doing them a favor.

I'm not sure if that many people are aware, but there is an updated N3 profile list now which includes every unit in the game (inc. HS and Paradiso) with updated stats.

http://www.infinitythegame.com/archivo/[ENG]_Unit_Profiles.pdf

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Well, before one learns fire teams one better should learn the basics. Overwhelming newbies does not help.

Or maybe Fireteam rules shouldn't be so bloody complex in the first place?

I don't think they are that complicated? I agree with not using them in at least the first 2-3 games though, let people get used to the core mechanics of individual units rather than confusing them with differing concepts.

I actually think link teams have brought a lot to the game, it's really cool having a squad of Kaplan or Knights moving in concert, and I think adds a bit of coherence to the battle. Building counters to them as well has added another tactical level as well.

 Pacific wrote:
I'm not sure if that many people are aware, but there is an updated N3 profile list now which includes every unit in the game (inc. HS and Paradiso) with updated stats.

http://www.infinitythegame.com/archivo/[ENG]_Unit_Profiles.pdf

People are aware. That's was the PDF that everyone had to wait almost two months for.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Well, before one learns fire teams one better should learn the basics. Overwhelming newbies does not help.

Or maybe Fireteam rules shouldn't be so bloody complex in the first place?

I don't think they are that complicated? I agree with not using them in at least the first 2-3 games though, let people get used to the core mechanics of individual units rather than confusing them with differing concepts.

I actually think link teams have brought a lot to the game, it's really cool having a squad of Kaplan or Knights moving in concert, and I think adds a bit of coherence to the battle. Building counters to them as well has added another tactical level as well.

But y'see, that's the issue.

Fireteams aren't "optional" rules anymore. They're core rules--Tohaa come with Fireteams as part of their "Triad" special rule.
They should have been in the Core book and they should have been streamlined significantly, and playtested far more significantly.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Well, before one learns fire teams one better should learn the basics. Overwhelming newbies does not help.

I agree completely... which is why they should have been in the book but under a different chapter. You make it sound like putting a $50 paywall (or whatever it costs) was the only option when instead it was simply the most expensive. I am a newbie to Infinity and the lack of a complete ruleset in either product turned me off to buying either instead of helping. YMMV obviously but in my case it was a hindrance. And, yes, to the inevitable person who is itching to post the panacea, I do know it is available free online.

With regard to the book. There is already a chapter for advanced rules. Another chapter with advanced advanced rules would not really helped folks. Also with the next book showing up N3 would be incomplete again and I bet people will then start to cry why HS and OP are included in the main rules and why not.

Also additional stuff would have ment more pages and prices would have gone up. There are certain numbers of pages which can be done for a certain amount, add onther sheet of pages and the cost rises and not always in a nice way. N3 is close to that number and I can understand quite well why they avoided it. Also they would have needed a different more epxensive binding, 250 is close to what is possible with this kind of book.

Character assassination & barriers to entry. Sounds like an polisci lecture mixed with an economics term paper.

I've been slapped back for less on the news/rumors feed

Help us Alph! You're our only hope!

I hope you slapped a couple of bagels to your head before typing that. Lol

I can't wait to see the new murder monkies in action!

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Um, Kanluwen, aren´t you the guy that gets on everyones nerves over on the CB-forum?

Whats that good to do with anything? Attack the argument not the person.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Actually you are quite spoiled. With GW there is sometimes a transition period of close to one decade for all armies to be updated. Here we are talking about a few months. This is quite a feat, though some people are quite ignorant abot how much work that is. And we got most of the stuff right now with only some patches here and there to be added.

Games workshop are repeatedly called out for their poor business practices and poor treatment of customers. Saying they did a better job than GW is hardly high praise.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:

With regard to the book. There is already a chapter for advanced rules. Another chapter with advanced advanced rules would not really helped folks. Also with the next book showing up N3 would be incomplete again and I bet people will then start to cry why HS and OP are included in the main rules and why not.

No one is complaining that you will need to buy future expansions when they are produced. They are complaining that the new rulebook came out without the rules needed to properly play the game but even if you buy the older expansions you need to go through FAQ's and work out what is now relevant and what is not. In no way did that decision help noob's because even if they buy HS and OP not everything in those rules still apply. N3 was the perfect way to get new players into the game and understanding rules and roll everything into one to make sure everything was clear and easily understood. If you think CB made a good business decision then fair enough but lets not pretend it was some how protecting noobs.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Also additional stuff would have ment more pages and prices would have gone up. There are certain numbers of pages which can be done for a certain amount, add onther sheet of pages and the cost rises and not always in a nice way. N3 is close to that number and I can understand quite well why they avoided it. Also they would have needed a different more epxensive binding, 250 is close to what is possible with this kind of book.

This is an important point that often gets ignored in this discussion.

Printing companies charge per side of each bit of paper they print on, as well as the cost for the paper itself that is used, as this is where the money is made for them. Add to that, as above, the limits in how many pages you can use for different binding styles.

Adding the fluff from Human Sphere and Paradiso would have nearly doubled the page count of the fluff book. The rules would have added about 50% to the rulebook. This would have required the shift to a more expensive binding style, or even splitting the books even further. Then add to that the upfront cost of the designers to update the layout and graphic work in both books - even if they're emplyed in house, that's work they're being paid to do by the company that needs to be compensated for by the sales of the books - moreso because people can obtain the results of that work for free, legally.

These costs would have absolutely been passed on to the consumer. This is at a time when Games Workshop was being ridiculed for the cost of the 7th edition 40k hardcover, and a lot of Infinity players already decided against buying N3 to stick with the free PDF version of the rules because the N3 rulebook was already deemed to be very expensive..

Personally, I'm still in the camp that would have preferred an all in one book. But I really get the feeling that the crowd that harps on about it being a huge mistake tend to forget about the financial side of the situation - and the fact that they'd be paying for it out of their pockets with the increased price. And there's no doubt these were considered by Corvus Belli before committing to a set of content for the rulebook.

That's great...but I still have to buy three books as a new player, two of which need FAQs and might be invalidated entirely at any given time in the near future.
The actual cost, and level of uncertainty as to the value and use of what I'm purchasing, is little different to a 'full rule set' N3 would have been.
"You don't need the books" is great, but I like actual books to work through, especially as a 'newbie'.

Hi I'm BrotherGecko I'm new guy*.

I will admit it was fustrating not having HS and OP rules the community has made getting them very easy.

I also have to say it has been a very minor grip compaired to what I've gotten for free.

So no them being seperated has not helped. As it made it difficult to pull the trigger on what to buy without knowledge of all I could do. But the community fixed that.

*to Infinity

 plastictrees wrote:
That's great...but I still have to buy three books as a new player, two of which need FAQs and might be invalidated entirely at any given time in the near future.
The actual cost, and level of uncertainty as to the value and use of what I'm purchasing, is little different to a 'full rule set' N3 would have been.
"You don't need the books" is great, but I like actual books to work through, especially as a 'newbie'.

You don't need to buy any books, which is the point.

If Corvus Belli put out a book that cost double what the N3 book cost, because they had to go with different binding, covers and amounts of books due to splitting the content, they'd have been laughed off exactly as Games Workshop was with 7th edition. They already were laughed off by some veteran memers of their community for the actual cost of N3.

There comes a point where, as a business, you need to consider if people will buy what you make. N3 definitely hit that threshhold that sent a lot of people to go with the free rules. Making it more expensive might have severely damaged the brand, and not made its development costs back.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:
Character assassination & barriers to entry. Sounds like an polisci lecture mixed with an economics term paper.

I've been slapped back for less on the news/rumors feed

Help us Alph! You're our only hope!

I suspect he's dusting off the baning hammer even as I type... Or distracted by watching the Kickstarter totals for Maelstroms Edge.

He would say something like, "Fascinating discussion. Take it here--> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/59.page" and start a thread.

No Infinity news from Salute? Really?

Blue Table Painting has an Infinity preview this month? ( so I think I read) We are awaiting Tohaa and Galwegians, no? I'm curious about the Tohaa. CB has done very cool stuff with the faction so far.

That's a good point actually, would have liked to have seen some official CB presence at Salute. I know there was Bandau and Antenociti with some nice Infinity-related displays, but it would have been cool to have some nice display tables and cabinets with AG's miniatures in.

 -Loki- wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
That's great...but I still have to buy three books as a new player, two of which need FAQs and might be invalidated entirely at any given time in the near future.
The actual cost, and level of uncertainty as to the value and use of what I'm purchasing, is little different to a 'full rule set' N3 would have been.
"You don't need the books" is great, but I like actual books to work through, especially as a 'newbie'.

You don't need to buy any books, which is the point.

If Corvus Belli put out a book that cost double what the N3 book cost, because they had to go with different binding, covers and amounts of books due to splitting the content, they'd have been laughed off exactly as Games Workshop was with 7th edition. They already were laughed off by some veteran memers of their community for the actual cost of N3.

There comes a point where, as a business, you need to consider if people will buy what you make. N3 definitely hit that threshhold that sent a lot of people to go with the free rules. Making it more expensive might have severely damaged the brand, and not made its development costs back.

I think at the moment, as the game is at a cross-roads between editions, it certainly helps if you are a newbie and know someone who already plays, or at least have a solid point of information (such as Dakka! ). I have a couple of friends who have just started, so I've been able to advise them to get Operation: Ice Storm, hold off on buying HS and Paradiso for the time being.

But, it's an important point about the rules being available for free, and it needs repeating. I think it's hard for players coming from the GW environment of having to buy new rules/army books frequently, you don't have to 'collect 'em all' in Infinity to be able to play and enjoy the game.

N3 was the perfect way to get new players into the game and understanding rules and roll everything into one to make sure everything was clear and easily understood. If you think CB made a good business decision then fair enough but lets not pretend it was some how protecting noobs.

60 bucks is quite close to the barrier which keeps people from investing into rules and without the PDF we would probably have way less people buying it. Bigger book would have brought it into a realm where many folks have a problem investing into it. 100 bucks for two books and a starter that fits most peoples bill, more than that they get reluctant.

There is quite some psychology involved.

The rules already have 250 pages and adding more would have been even more daunting. While the rules from OP and HS add a lot to the game you can play without any problems without them. The game is not incomplete without them. They are still additional advanced rules. The comment most often heared from interested people when having a look is... that is a heck of a lot of rules and it is quite some work to show them that it is not that difficult. No imagine them being confronted with even more rules. The including of all rules in one book was tried in the past by other games and it did not work out that well for those games. Look at Warmahordes which have a similar structure to the distribution of rules and they go quite well with that approach CB is following right now.

Also where do you draw the line what to include, some of the rules in the books are more campaign-related than others or do you want to include all of the additional books into one book and while we are on it, why is the fluff going with it not included?

CB is quite aware that the situation is not perfect and that´s why we are in a transition period. So give them some time and let them do their best to transfer the whole game. N3 btw is a way better book than N1-2 and I know quite well ho complex a job it must have been restructuring all that stuff and testing it over and over and checking on the hundred of profiles. That´s something they only seldom get credit for. CB is not a big company that has unlimited resources, they are still a few dozen people that do quite a good job (especially when considering how many fail in this business). They could have communicated the road-plan for the books a little bit better, but considering how mouch we get for free that is rather a small problem.

To the post below.

It´s 60 bucks in Europe, where the game originates from.

N1 and N2 had their problems, but there are many books out there that are way worse. And N3 is one of the good ones on the market right now. It is very structured, gives you pages for related rules and has a staggering amount of good examples. E.g. FoW took also three editions to reach it's current form and the first book was even worse than N1. That´s quite normal for games that grow bigger than initially expected. Don´t forget that Infinity originated as a RPG-combat system (like Warmahordes, too) and has come a long way. N2 tried to make things different, it did not really work out and they really overhauled the game into a rules-set that is way easier to assimilate.

Most of the counters to my comments are "Yeah, but that´s not what I want it to be" which is OK, but does not take into account what the majority of gamers want or need. Those here vocal against CB right now are the minority and that for a reason. We´ve got up to a dozen new players within the month N3 showed up and most of them are very happy with the new book and not few of them come from other TT and know what to expect. Most of them were surprised when reading on the vitriol spewed about cause CB did not release the pdf instantly. Even the old-timers among our Infinity-players spent more time on re-learning the rules and testing them out than on complaining about the pdf showing up later. And what did the rush got us? PDF that with 2-3 weeks more would have had less mistakes.

I can´t see where N3 is rushed, except for a few mistakes that are quite normal for a book of this size there is no glaring error in the book. I would have expected more, being used to GW. What is true is: HS and CP will need some extra-time. And they better take their time with the updates. But there is no problem playing N3 without them and even with the old books there is not much of a problem unless you are the kind of gamer most poeple play only once with. We already held 2 tournaments with the combination of N2 books and N3 core rules and the errata and it worked out quite well. And we are aware that some things might change, it is a transition period, of course.

Actually, you're the one that's assassinating your own character keeping up this conversation after people have called you on it.

And the book is $80 USD retail.

CB is still the company that put out the crappy N1 and N2 books in the first place. They have had three tries so far.

Moreover, it's become clear that CB just didn't have the HS and CP rules updates ready at all, having rushed N3 to market to try and make it for the holiday 2014 sales, but instead failed that and squeaked in at Christmas.

Mods will step in soon, but considering how many times I've been comment sniped just before or after mods clamped down, I had to agree with the critique of CB's release.

The game is still good, and still fun, but their shoddy release and transition and dampened the enthusiasm and any efforts made towards growing the community. I've experienced this first hand.

Koni posted the following:

Hi guys. Bostria & I have already taken our Jaeger and we have been in contact with BTP. Preview soon.



Rest of previews before the end of the week. Sorry for the delay guys.

Blue Table Painting is still a "partner" of CB, so...

text removed,

reds8n

If you have nothing to post other than insults/digs at other posters or nonsense that will simply drag the thread off topic then it's better you don't post at all.

Has Antenocitis Workshop new designed for infinity scenery been posted here yet?

They have two pre painted Asian MDF kits one is a garden type kit the other is benches I picked one of them up and it seems nice. From speaking to the guys at the stall those two kits are designed to complement a sushi truck/stall they will be bringing out in the next few months.

I have no idea if it will be prepainted or not but thats the closest I have to infinity news coming out of salute.

Nope, not being posted yet.

Two of the cars are actually one model, one version parked, the other for driving.

The stuff does not come prepainted, at least the resin-stuff.

The new MDF kits I was talking about came pre painted. I know the resin stuff isn't.

http://www.beastsofwar.com/infinity/antenocitis-oriental-garden-infinity/


That's the set. The one I have came with the pre painted mdf. Some grass/bushes, some rocks and some sand.

They spoke about a sushi bar to go with the garden sets but as I said I don't know if it will be mdf pre painted or not.