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 th3maninblak wrote:
Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.

So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.

I'm more interested to see if we get the next generation of Grav-weapons.
Vanilla has the rifle for foot boys and bikers, and the cannon with amp on Centurions.

Will we see more wide spread use of grav weapons? Attack bikes, dreads, razorbacks, predator sponsons, devastators with grav-cannons? Or will they not be willing to make rules for units that do not have models again after the whole chapter house fiasco?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
When your flying to battle in a strike cruiser and 6 hours before planet fall you succumb to the Black Rage, it's not like they have a bunch of suits lying around for you to change into.

If you showed up to battle in Terminator Armor, you fight in terminator armor.

I'm pretty sure 1st Company Vets have Power Armour as standard, and TDA is issued on a mission by mission basis. I think the Deathwing and Grey Knights are the only forces with sufficient suits to let everyone have one.

Actually the blood angels have stockpiled huge amounts of terminator armor, as well as land raiders and storm ravens. Just sayin.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?

Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.

 Azreal13 wrote:
You know the Leviathan Captain apparently has a "Blood Yell" right?

I wouldn't hold your breath!

In the bloody hour he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
In the bloodnight hour - "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell- "blood, blood, blood"
Blood, blood, blood.

Bloody Yell, by Bloody Idol

 warboss wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?

Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.

Once again, you're assuming putting a black enraged marine into terminator armour means the armour will be lost and destroyed. It can be recovered and repaired, even if the marine fulfills his death in combat objective.

 Azreal13 wrote:
You know the Leviathan Captain apparently has a "Blood Yell" right?

I wouldn't hold your breath!

I took a look at the WD that has it and it looks more like 'Bloody Toll' to me so there might be hope yet

Yeah Blood Yell can't be right

 LutherMax wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Well, they don't decomission Dreadnoughts when they succumb to the Black Rage, why would it be any different for Terminators?

Because you don't have a choice with a dreadnought whereas you do with terminators. Interring someone in a dread sarcophagus is a complicated process as is waking up that marine after internment. If a dread pilot suddenly succumbs to black rage, they don't carry around spare frozen gimp marines to swap them out like dead batteries. If one succumbs, you either DON'T use the dread or you use the dread asca death co dread. EVERY single terminator marine though has his own suit of power armor that he wore prior to ascension to the first company. They don't trade in that armor like a car with an expired lease. Even most first co marines (except for DA) continue to use power armor frequently instead of terminator armor even if it is available. It is a scarce and revered resource that is rationed out, not something to just slap onto lunatics whose only short term reason for continuing to live is to commit suicide asap while taking down as many of the enemy as possible. The existence of dread death co does not in any way, shape, or form justify terminator death co in the fluff or by any sound reasoning. Gw though has shown repeatedly that they can and will change fluff in absurd ways so who knows if the above will be abandoned.

Once again, you're assuming putting a black enraged marine into terminator armour means the armour will be lost and destroyed. It can be recovered and repaired, even if the marine fulfills his death in combat objective.

No, I'm correctly assuming there is a unacceptably higher chance it will be destroyed compared with it being used by a normal veteran. When you're talking about something that is likely thousands of years old, a revered relic, and incredible difficult if not impossible to replace then putting a crazed lunatic in it makes no practical sense if you have a choice. It only makes sense to gamers who simply want a 2+/5+ with Fnp and are desperately grasping at straws to justify it. Whether or not Gw caters to those wishes despite logic and existing fluff for the sake of sales is another story though.

Wonder if you could teleport the armor back after the battle was over and leave the corpse behind, or retrieve the corpse and inture it in the burial vaults.

A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.

The only good reason for someone suffering from the Black Rage to be in terminator armour is if it overcame them once they'd been wearing the suit for a while and it would be impractical/dangerous to get it off them.

warboss is absolutely right about the way Terminator armour is considered in universe: a scarce resource of incredibly high value. It wouldn't be given to Black Rage sufferers on the off chance the suit will be recoverable. Even if it can be recovered (which is a big if), there are no guarantees that it will be in a usable condition/repairable. From the fluff it seems most chapters use their Terminator armour sparingly, only when absolutely necessary and it would be anathema to them to issue it to delusional madmen who could see it destroyed or lost.

Of course, fluff is adaptable to the need to sell new units, so we could well see DC Terminators.

Did I read somewhere that because the crux has a tiny piece of Emprah armour in it, that they try to recover the suits of all fallen vets no matter what?

I think there's justification for it, and anticipate the GW stand by of 'only in the most dire of dire circumstances' mixed with someone saying 'I wonder how killy these nutjobs would be as walking tanks?' for fluff validation.

I mean, it only has to have one scenario in which DC Terminators was a perfect solution to be justified in making it to the codex.

Ok I'm willing to concede it stretches the fluff - and I am the type of hobbyist who would eschew a unit, even a very powerful one if it didn't 'feel' right. I'm not even convinced we'll see such a unit but if we do I think it's within the scope of the writers to weave it into the fluff somehow.

 LutherMax wrote:
Ok I'm willing to concede it stretches the fluff - and I am the type of hobbyist who would eschew a unit, even a very powerful one if it didn't 'feel' right. I'm not even convinced we'll see such a unit but if we do I think it's within the scope of the writers to weave it into the fluff somehow.

......yes........but........Awwwwwsome! lol.


This is clearly the only logic needed. also I should put out there, that I run a total DC themed army.

I really will be shocked if this does happen, considering the source. However even if it doesn't turn out to be true, Its clear I need to paint some up just for display.

Death Company in Centurion assault armour would be funny.

"WHY YOU SO SLOW PUNY ROBOT"
"WHY ME CHAINZED IN HERE"
"SKULL DUDE, WHY YOU DO DIZ?!?!?!?!"

On a point though, all they would have to do is modify the centurion armour to be able to be remote shutdown by a tech marine, wouldn't have to run around chasing all the mad men at the end of the battle who just want to do more killing. I imagine it's the same situation as the owner of a dog who is off a lead and doesn't want to go back on it, cue helpless owner chasing it in futile.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Death Company in Centurion assault armour would be funny.

"WHY YOU SO SLOW PUNY ROBOT"
"WHY ME CHAINZED IN HERE"
"SKULL DUDE, WHY YOU DO DIZ?!?!?!?!"

On a point though, all they would have to do is modify the centurion armour to be able to be remote shutdown by a tech marine, wouldn't have to run around chasing all the mad men at the end of the battle who just want to do more killing. I imagine it's the same situation as the owner of a dog who is off a lead and doesn't want to go back on it, cue helpless owner chasing it in futile.

perhaps thats the logic behind the DC in terminator armor,to quote the Forgeworld 'Red Butchers' text:

On the killing ground of Isstvan III, there were World Eaters on either side of the conflict who succumbed utterly, devolving into mindless frenzied savages that could not be controlled. Rather than ‘putting down’ such individuals as had happened in the past, the Apothecaries had the mad subdued and chained for a far darker fate.

The Techmarines made customised Terminator suits from recovered wargear for them, fashioning them as both armour and as confinement; mechanised prison cells that could be immobilised with a remote signal.

Doesn't that process sound familiar

 Azreal13 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
When your flying to battle in a strike cruiser and 6 hours before planet fall you succumb to the Black Rage, it's not like they have a bunch of suits lying around for you to change into.

If you showed up to battle in Terminator Armor, you fight in terminator armor.

I'm pretty sure 1st Company Vets have Power Armour as standard, and TDA is issued on a mission by mission basis. I think the Deathwing and Grey Knights are the only forces with sufficient suits to let everyone have one.

A full strength Codex Astartes Chapter should have 100+ suits of Terminator Armor. 20, 5 man, squads plus what ever their leaders are wearing.



Terminator Armors is not the right armor for every battle, but I've never read, or heard of, Marines showing up with a change of armor. If they were dispathed to the warzone in Terminator Armor, and the black Rage overtakes them, it's reasonable for them to fight in it.

How would you get them out of it ?
"Hey Sanguinis, I know Horus is about to bust through that door, but would you mind trading me that Terminator armor your wearing for my standard issue power armor ?"

Every. Single. Time....the DC Terminator conversation comes up, I point people to the text that Jinx put up. There's precedent, so it's not like this is new fluff out of nowhere.

The Black Rage can show up at any time before, during, or after a battle. If a marine is in TDA and goes nuts, who's going to take him out of it?

No one.

Throw black paint on him and he's ready. Once he turns himself to paste in the suit, they can hose it out and paint it red.

Well the codex entry says that Chaplains look every brother in the eye on the eve of battle and identify tell tale signs, taking away anyone who displays any such identifiers; implying that in the intial stages of succumbing to the Black Rage individuals are able to be directed an interacted with.

You might also reasonably assume that a Chapter that's dealt with the Black Rage for millenia would c onduct these checks before allowing someone into a suit of Terminator armour.

It's not going to be 100% effective as combat situations will often prohibit being able to carry out such pre-battle rituals and we know that the Black Rage can manifest during battle, but brothers succumbing while in Terminator armour are going to be so rare as to not be worth making a unit entry for, let alone a whole kit.

Terminator Death Company might make sense as a Lone Wolf type unit with a 1 per 5 regular Death Company limit or something.

When has rarity ever stopped GW from making a kit, though? Forget all of your fluff, if GW wants to sell DC termies they're going to, and they'll rewrite fluff to make it work.

Don't think so? Think it's too stupid? Look no further than the riptide, which is about as stupid of an idea as DC termies and yet there it is. Also supposed to be a rare unit because of the cost in resources and time to manufacture, plus the experimental and deadly nature of its reactor, yet entirely possible to field an army of them on the table. GW doesn't care.

I know : (

 TalonZahn wrote:
Every. Single. Time....the DC Terminator conversation comes up, I point people to the text that Jinx put up. There's precedent, so it's not like this is new fluff out of nowhere.

The Black Rage can show up at any time before, during, or after a battle. If a marine is in TDA and goes nuts, who's going to take him out of it?

No one.

Throw black paint on him and he's ready. Once he turns himself to paste in the suit, they can hose it out and paint it red.

Except... you know.. that isn't how it generally happens. There aren't roving bands of chapter serfs convienently walking around the battlefield carrying extra purity seals and buckets of black paint looking for marines that only just lost their cocoa puffs to add a new coat of black to. Go look up the Death Company entry in the current codex. In the rituals and preparations BEFORE the battle, the chaplains inspect the company and see if anyone has or is starting to succumb. If they've succumbed, the chaplains perform a ritual and the marine passes out into the chaplain's arms (so he's frequently might not even be in his armor) and is taken away. It is at that point that their armor is painted black BEFORE the battle. It isn't a case of terminators on the battlefield suddenly going crazy. This is a process and there is currently NO justification for conceiveably throwing away a suit of revered armor on a crazy person. The only "justification" is from a PLAYER perspective in that a 2+/5++ FNP unit with buffed stats is useful. It makes no sense on the part of the chapter that needs to look at the long term (centuries or even millenia) consequences of losing something that they in all likelihood won't be able to replace. There is so much ignorance masquerading as justification in this thread that it is mind boggling. If a marine does rarely succumb DURING the battle (like in the HH novel), they wouldn't be in a SQUAD of death company marines now would they with their armor painted black? Unless these death co terminators are like SW lone wolves, even that "justification" makes no sense. Or you think that a looney marine who thinks the HH is happening RIGHT NOW can calm down long enough for the paint to be applied and dry on his terminator armor. UGHH... Or do you think that BA armor comes with a toggle switch that changes its color instantly so he can join the squad of fellow loonies?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
You know the Leviathan Captain apparently has a "Blood Yell" right?

I wouldn't hold your breath!

In the bloody hour he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell he cried- "blood, blood, blood"
In the bloodnight hour - "blood, blood, blood"
With a bloody yell- "blood, blood, blood"
Blood, blood, blood.

Bloody Yell, by Bloody Idol

Great. Now I have Bloody Idol stuck in my head.

Hey, I am just chuffed as anything that we're getting a new codex. Now if I can just GET one before they sell out...

 sockwithaticket wrote:
Well the codex entry says that Chaplains look every brother in the eye on the eve of battle and identify tell tale signs, taking away anyone who displays any such identifiers; implying that in the intial stages of succumbing to the Black Rage individuals are able to be directed an interacted with.

You might also reasonably assume that a Chapter that's dealt with the Black Rage for millenia would c onduct these checks before allowing someone into a suit of Terminator armour.

It's not going to be 100% effective as combat situations will often prohibit being able to carry out such pre-battle rituals and we know that the Black Rage can manifest during battle, but brothers succumbing while in Terminator armour are going to be so rare as to not be worth making a unit entry for, let alone a whole kit.

Terminator Death Company might make sense as a Lone Wolf type unit with a 1 per 5 regular Death Company limit or something.

This is the thing, what are the chances that at least 5 Terminators will succumb on the eve of battle? If that were the case, they could do it like the 4th ed Codex, where the number of Death Company in the army is completely random, you just roll before deployment and put a model from randomly selected units into a new Death Company unit... Terrible rules, but fluffy.

Wouldn't terminators who succumbed in the middle of a battle just be represented as having furious charge? They aren't going to be like:

"Hey, John, take a break from killing the guardian with a shruikan catapult pointed at your head and let me paint your armor black. Thanks!"

The Blood Angels are supposed to be on of the "richest" Chapters in the IoM. That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them. At most, other Space Marine chapters have 10 Land Raiders, the BA have 90 or more. Why could they not have more TDA suits than other chapters? I do not have a problem with the idea of them putting guys in them that are going through the hard stages of Bat Guano Psychosis. Actually it would be a bit of a twist for the fluff ... and change is good.



















edit: Spelling

 th3maninblak wrote:
A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.

You mean Lone Wolves?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
A 2+/5++ dude with feel no pain, ws5, rage and furious charge would be awesome, no doubt. But we're talking about the end of the imperium here. Anything is possible.

You mean Lone Wolves?

you forgot to add 2 wounds and cheap as dirt

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
The Blood Angels are supposed to be on of the "richest" Chapters in the IoM. That was the fluff for the BA getting Land Raiders as a DT .... they have so many that they actually just drop them from the sky, sometimes with guys inside of them. At most, other Space Marine chapters have 10 Land Raiders, the BA have 90 or more. Why could they not have more TDA suits than other chapters? I do not have a problem with the idea of them putting guys in them that are going through the hard stages of Bat Guano Psychosis. Actually it would be a bit of a twist for the fluff ... and change is good.
edit: Spelling

They also have fewer sets of terminator armor from space hulk incursions. More than once they have lost their entire first company in space hulks while wearing the armor.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
The real interesting thing will be whether or not they get Centurions.

I asked for 2 things from the new Blood Angels Codex, Grav weapons and Centurions.
Grav Guns ! Check !
Centurions ? I guess we'll have to wait 3 weeks to find out.

Why do I care ? I have 9 Centurions waiting to find out what chapter they belong to.

If BA get fast attack drop pods like Space Wolves, and I don't see why they shouldn't, and I'll be doing a little happy dance.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Our tac marines getting grav guns and heavy flamers is cool. But you know what would be cooler? Assault marines with heavy flamers.

So far this release has been awesome. And we should know what happened to DoA and the red thirst when someone gets a copy of Deathstorm in hand.

I'm more interested to see if we get the next generation of Grav-weapons.
Vanilla has the rifle for foot boys and bikers, and the cannon with amp on Centurions.

Will we see more wide spread use of grav weapons? Attack bikes, dreads, razorbacks, predator sponsons, devastators with grav-cannons? Or will they not be willing to make rules for units that do not have models again after the whole chapter house fiasco?

So BA want to be Vanilla marines +1 again? I'm already mad enough that BA are getting grav guns and heavy flamers in Tac Squads. Salamanders would have loved Heavy Flamer tacs.
In exchange for grav guns, next codex around, vanilla marines and probably DA deserve access to hand flamers and/or infernus pistols at the least.

And centurions too? Maybe if Vanilla get the Librarian Dreadnought and Baal predator.

New uses of the Grav guns should not go to the BA, but to chapters that do not have their own book and models. make grav weapons say an Iron Hands specialty. Redo the dreadnought kit to add a grav cannon/amp arm for vanilla marines.