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NL don't have any redeemjng qualitoes.

TiamatRoar wrote:Saying "At least they're not hypocrites" is the equivalent of saying "Well, at least they don't smell like monkey vomit" or "at least they aren't child molestors" or "at least they aren't chaos spawn". I wouldn't call either of those "redeeming features" either, myself. Instead, they're merely a "lack of being something awful"

Redeeming one's self is compensating for the bad parts. Having some things that aren't bad about them when everyone else is slipping down the rankings because of that bad thing seems like a redemptive activity. Not AS redemptive as if, you know, they gave low-calorie snack foods to little kids or volunteered at the local library, but anything that's less worse than everyone else is technically a form of better.

Ehm... John Wayne Gacy didn't kill as many people as Mao Tse Tung, but that does not make him a better person.

Is razor sharp wit a redeeming quality?

 Psienesis wrote:
Ehm... John Wayne Gacy didn't kill as many people as Mao Tse Tung, but that does not make him a better person.

Good, no, but better, yes.

It's funny to be on the other side of this. For years back in 4th and 5th edition, people used to rave about autocannons because they were better at things that they were still terrible against. Better and good weren't synonyms, then, and they still aren't, now.

In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.

 Ailaros wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Ehm... John Wayne Gacy didn't kill as many people as Mao Tse Tung, but that does not make him a better person.

Good, no, but better, yes.

It's funny to be on the other side of this. For years back in 4th and 5th edition, people used to rave about autocannons because they were better at things that they were still terrible against. Better and good weren't synonyms, then, and they still aren't, now.

In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.

Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.
Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.

Night Lords are way, Way, Wayyyyyyyyyy worse and as farthest as you can get from any semblance of being "Redeemable" bro.

Ailaros wrote:In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.

No? I mean, let's look at the context of the situations.

In the former, the NL butcher a planet for the lulz, basically. They have no overarching tactical goal or plan here. They butcher the planet because they want to, because they're here for plunder, because it entertains them, whatever. The NL warbands are not involved in any greater mission or task.

The Imperium will commit Exterminatus on a planet when it is judged entirely lost, without hope for rescue. Maybe it's an entirely Ork-held world. Maybe there's a Hive Fleet 8 hours from arrival. Maybe a Chaos Cult opened a stable Warp Rift and daemons are flooding out in the millions. Whatever. There is a decided tactical reason to destroy that planet. It is also not something that "just happens". The Inquisition is involved, and takes a bit of doing to get the right vessels lined up to be there, with the right ordnance, etc. This is not something that happens on a whim.

Slave revolt. Guess what? The Imperium isn't a democracy, it's a totalitarian state. Rebel against the rightful rulers of the planet, expect to get killed... though your deaths will not come at the hands of the "Imperium", but at the hands of the Planetary Governor and whatever military assets they can call in, which may include PDF, Arbites, and similar forces, as it threatens the world's tithe to the Administratum.

If the slave rebellion can succeed fast enough, replace the planetary rulers fast enough, and not miss making their tithe-grade, the Imperium.... that is, the Adepta Terra, the Administratum, doesn't care. It's a local matter, and far beyond their ability to care about it.

Of course, if that slave rebellion is accepting Traitor or Xenos help, then they are, indeed, Heretics and should all be dead, because now they've gotten the Inquisition involved. Let that be a lesson to the rest of you.

The NL are still not coming out ahead here.

Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.

So, the ends justify the means?

Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.

So, the means justify the ends?

There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...

By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.

 Ailaros wrote:

Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.

So, the ends justify the means?

Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.

So, the means justify the ends?

There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...

By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.

He's comparing the reasons why these mass murders happen.

The Night Lords do this for fun, the Imperium out of necessity.

 Ailaros wrote:

Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.

So, the ends justify the means?

Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.

So, the means justify the ends?

There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...

By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.

Dude let's ignore most of what I wrote like you did, the Imperium still comes out on top.
Both ways the planet is dead correct?
Atleast you do not get cleaved in half infront of your family before you die.

So, the means justify the ends, then.

I'm sure that brings a great deal of comfort to people as they watch their children being slaughtered...

 Ailaros wrote:
So, the means justify the ends, then.

I'm sure that brings a great deal of comfort to people as they watch their children being slaughtered...

It's certainly better than watching your children get flayed alive, get made into a new coat, and then watching them get staked on your flatscreen tv, knowing you're next.

Whether or not the ends justify the means, at least the Imperium HAS ends.

Maybe you're of the belief that the Imperium's ends dont justify the means. Maybe you don't care that those people who watched their children getting slaughtered was done so that Chaos wouldn't envelop more planets (leading to things a lot worse than just children getting slaughtered).

That doesn't change the fact that the Imperium at least TRIES to have an end in the first place.

So let's say the ends don't justify the means. The Imperium still comes out on top because they're at least sincerely trying to have something that justifies it in the first place, even if they failed to get that justification, The Night Lords meanwhile are doing it just for the hell of it. In a world where I'm forced to choose between an evil person TRYING to be moral and TRYING to have a good moral reason for what they're doing (even if failing), and a person who's just evil and committing evil for the hell of it, I'd say the former has the higher moral ground (even if both are evil)



(of course, my own personal belief is that, yes, given the circumstances, the Imperium's ends do justify the means sometimes. But again, even if they didn't, the Imperium still comes off as better than the Night Lords because they're at least TRYING to be good)

(as an aside, another reason "not a hypocrite" isn't a redeeming factor for the Nightlords is because they aren't even TRYING in the first place. It's as easy for a Nightlord to not be a hypocrite as it is for a friggin' rock to not be a hypocrite, because any idiot and jackass can not be a hypocrite when they aren't even trying to have any morals in the first place)



There's also the fact that unlike the Night Lords, the Imperium actually does do good things some times. Ordos Hospitalers actually run charity hospitals, Space Marines sometimes rescue women and children in novels even when it's inconvenient for them, and in some places, Imperial servants actually receive paychecks and are gainfully employed. Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.

Even Kurse hated his own legion, for crying out loud. And he did so for a reason. There was nothing good about them for the most part.

 Psienesis wrote:

Ailaros wrote:In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.

No? I mean, let's look at the context of the situations.

In the former, the NL butcher a planet for the lulz, basically. They have no overarching tactical goal or plan here. They butcher the planet because they want to, because they're here for plunder, because it entertains them, whatever. The NL warbands are not involved in any greater mission or task.

The Imperium will commit Exterminatus on a planet when it is judged entirely lost, without hope for rescue. Maybe it's an entirely Ork-held world. Maybe there's a Hive Fleet 8 hours from arrival. Maybe a Chaos Cult opened a stable Warp Rift and daemons are flooding out in the millions. Whatever. There is a decided tactical reason to destroy that planet. It is also not something that "just happens". The Inquisition is involved, and takes a bit of doing to get the right vessels lined up to be there, with the right ordnance, etc. This is not something that happens on a whim.

Two points.

1) The original instance where the Night Lords butchered a world without the Imperium's orders, it was Nostramo. Curze thought that the planet was beyond redeeming, so he butchered everyone on HIS CHAPTER'S RECRUITING WORLD to save the Legion from being filled with... people from Nostramo (Nostamoians?).

2) Re-read about the Badab War. While some parts of the Imperium do horrible things when they have to, some parts do horrible things because they can. Example: Carcharodons Astra. They *could* have attempted to hunt down the Mantis Warriors. Instead, they butchered civilians so that the Mantis Warriors would come to them... and they did it in such an epic fashion that the Fire Hawks quit the war... after fighting on the *same* side as the Sharks.

Then, faced with the task of disabling the defenses of Badab, the Sharks cooked off the planet's reactors, killing millions of loyalists, Space Marines included (I can see Tyberos telling jokes about "How many Star Phantoms does it take to escape a dying world?"). Why? Lulz.

Heck- Carcharodons fight about like you'd expect loyalist Night Lords to fight... terror, shock and awe, killing innocents whenever they can get away with it.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Even Kurse hated his own legion, for crying out loud. And he did so for a reason. There was nothing good about them for the most part.

Hey, I mentioned in my OP that if you think the Night Lords have no redeeming qualities, that's fine, but this thread is not for that.

I just want to collect the good traits about the Night Lords, whatever they may be. I know the Night Lords are pretty bad, and I anticipated people to assert that they are almost wholly bad. So I deliberately mentioned it in my OP, yet people still continue to assert...

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Ailaros wrote:In any case, if the night lords butcher an entire planet, and then the imperium exterminatus' a planet, and then solves a slave revolt problem by killing all the slaves, then yes, for that duration, night lords would be better. They would be redeemed, if not absolutely, then relatively when compared to the imperium in this case.

No? I mean, let's look at the context of the situations.

In the former, the NL butcher a planet for the lulz, basically. They have no overarching tactical goal or plan here. They butcher the planet because they want to, because they're here for plunder, because it entertains them, whatever. The NL warbands are not involved in any greater mission or task.

The Imperium will commit Exterminatus on a planet when it is judged entirely lost, without hope for rescue. Maybe it's an entirely Ork-held world. Maybe there's a Hive Fleet 8 hours from arrival. Maybe a Chaos Cult opened a stable Warp Rift and daemons are flooding out in the millions. Whatever. There is a decided tactical reason to destroy that planet. It is also not something that "just happens". The Inquisition is involved, and takes a bit of doing to get the right vessels lined up to be there, with the right ordnance, etc. This is not something that happens on a whim.

Two points.

1) The original instance where the Night Lords butchered a world without the Imperium's orders, it was Nostramo. Curze thought that the planet was beyond redeeming, so he butchered everyone on HIS CHAPTER'S RECRUITING WORLD to save the Legion from being filled with... people from Nostramo (Nostamoians?).

2) Re-read about the Badab War. While some parts of the Imperium do horrible things when they have to, some parts do horrible things because they can. Example: Carcharodons Astra. They *could* have attempted to hunt down the Mantis Warriors. Instead, they butchered civilians so that the Mantis Warriors would come to them... and they did it in such an epic fashion that the Fire Hawks quit the war... after fighting on the *same* side as the Sharks.

Then, faced with the task of disabling the defenses of Badab, the Sharks cooked off the planet's reactors, killing millions of loyalists, Space Marines included (I can see Tyberos telling jokes about "How many Star Phantoms does it take to escape a dying world?"). Why? Lulz.

Heck- Carcharodons fight about like you'd expect loyalist Night Lords to fight... terror, shock and awe, killing innocents whenever they can get away with it.

We're not Comparing the NL with the Carcharodons since they're an exception to the rule, You could've just as well put the Salamanders instead.
The Greater Imperium would not condone such actions, Let alone the vast majority of Astartes chapters.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

2) Re-read about the Badab War. While some parts of the Imperium do horrible things when they have to, some parts do horrible things because they can. Example: Carcharodons Astra. They *could* have attempted to hunt down the Mantis Warriors. Instead, they butchered civilians so that the Mantis Warriors would come to them... and they did it in such an epic fashion that the Fire Hawks quit the war... after fighting on the *same* side as the Sharks.

So... you''ve pointed out that the Imperium has arguably evil individuals (the Carcharodons) while in the same paragraph also pointing out it has GOOD members (The Fire Hawks)

....what was your point again?

Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.

(it's notable that it's not just the Fire Hawks that dislike the Carcharodons, either. The Carcharodon's table top rules make them desperate allies with all other Imperial factions for a reason)

TiamatRoar wrote:
Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.

Why would Night Lords rescue women and children they don't know? If they aren't legion serfs then they are most likely Imperials and therefore the enemy. Do you see Salamanders rescuing "innocent" Night Lord serfs? Most of the "innocent" victims of the Night Lords' atrocities are enemy civilians. And even then, an Imperial civilian captured by the Night Lords would be much more likely to survive if they were useful (albeit in slavery) than a Night Lord serf captured by the Imperium who would most likely be killed outright.

If you try to apply NL to real-world morality, they have no redeeming qualities and are genocidal maniacs.

However in the fictional universe of 40k, the fact they're not slaves of the dark gods is pretty good.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.

Spoiler:

Malcharion's last act is saving the life of some random legion serf.

Why would Night Lords rescue women and children they don't know? If they aren't legion serfs then they are most likely Imperials and therefore the enemy. Do you see Salamanders rescuing "innocent" Night Lord serfs? Most of the "innocent" victims of the Night Lords' atrocities are enemy civilians. And even then, an Imperial civilian captured by the Night Lords would be much more likely to survive if they were useful (albeit in slavery) than a Night Lord serf captured by the Imperium who would most likely be killed outright.

That's why I said "outside their monkey sphere". Pretty sure Night Lords would be just as uncaring to Chaos civilians too, anyways (for what constitutes a civilian in a Chaos society), if BL/GW actually ever bothered to show Chaos civilian life.

 Harriticus wrote:
If you try to apply NL to real-world morality, they have no redeeming qualities and are genocidal maniacs.

However in the fictional universe of 40k, the fact they're not slaves of the dark gods is pretty good.

Necron, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Orks (unless you count Gork and Mork as dark, and even then they're very hands-off sorts of gods) aren't slaves of the Dark Gods either.

And whether or not the Night Lords are slaves of the dark gods is debateable. They might simply be slaves and not realize it.

TiamatRoar wrote:


Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.

How about, "They don't worship an atheist's corpse."

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Good luck finding Night Warriors running charity institutes, rescuing women and children they don't know unless it's to enslave them, and relying on any work force that isn't slavery. Good luck finding them doing anything morally positive at all to anyone outside their monkey sphere (and, in most cases, even within it). Which is why they aren't redeemable.

Spoiler:

Malcharion's last act is saving the life of some random legion serf.

Why would Night Lords rescue women and children they don't know? If they aren't legion serfs then they are most likely Imperials and therefore the enemy. Do you see Salamanders rescuing "innocent" Night Lord serfs? Most of the "innocent" victims of the Night Lords' atrocities are enemy civilians. And even then, an Imperial civilian captured by the Night Lords would be much more likely to survive if they were useful (albeit in slavery) than a Night Lord serf captured by the Imperium who would most likely be killed outright.

That's why I said "outside their monkey sphere". Pretty sure Night Lords would be just as uncaring to Chaos civilians too, anyways (for what constitutes a civilian in a Chaos society), if BL/GW actually ever bothered to show Chaos civilian life.

What are "Chaos civilians"? Unlike the Imperium, Chaos is not a monolithic entity. Why would a Night Lord care about the welfare of a Black Legion serf? Even the Night Lords themselves are divided. A Night Lord serf from an enemy Night Lord warband could be as much an enemy as an Imperial civilian.

Do the Night Lord warbands treat their own serfs well? Well, it depends on the status/skill/usefulness of the serf, but for the most part not really, no. But they don't go around committing wholesale genocide on their own crew. My point is you can't compare the atrocities the Night Lords commit against their enemies with the atrocities the Imperium commits against its own people. Apples to oranges. A valid comparison would be how each faction treats its enemies and how each treats its own.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.

How about, "They don't worship an atheist's corpse."

You mean a Giant atheist, Possibly the galaxy's most powerful psyker ever that literally conjures Flaming Space Marines and Is guiding a humongous Galaxy spanning Space Empire and guiding every goddamn space ship in that while being half-dead?
There is no alternative to the Emperor anyways, And we all know the drawbacks so you don't have to mention them.
Besides Space marines do not worship the Emperor, And while the Night Lords are call edgy and cool and supposedly do not worship the Chaos gods(Many do as evidenced by Daemon Princes and the like) They are tools in their hands just as much as any traitor Legion.

I just want to collect the good traits about the Night Lords, whatever they may be.

They don't have any.

And whether or not the Night Lords are slaves of the dark gods is debateable. They might simply be slaves and not realize it.

Bingo.

Do they take pleasure in their nightmarish atrocities? Yes. Do they shed blood? Oh, gods, yes. Do they enact change? Indeed! Do they invoke despair in those who witness the remains of their handiwork? Without question.

While they may not go for the whole pomp and circumstance of Chaos Worship, they are most certainly pawns of the Ruinous Powers.

 Psienesis wrote:

There's nothing relatable about the Night Lords.

There's loads. They did what they thought was right (war through absolute terror) to bring systems into Compliance and get censured for it. Bombs for freedom or somesuch. Their Primarch knew what was going to happen, as mentioned previously, and was driven insane even though the Emperor maybe could've stopped it.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


Just because the Imperium has evil things in it doesn't change the fact that it has good things in it like the Fire Hawks (IE, redeeming features for the Imperium as a whole). The same can't be said for the Night Lords, who don't really have any substantial good things whatsoever.

How about, "They don't worship an atheist's corpse."

Necrons, Tyrannids, Dark Eldar, Orks, rocks, and dirt don't worship the Emperor either.

Something's wrong when the only "redeeming features" people can think of are a lack of other features.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Do the Night Lord warbands treat their own serfs well? Well, it depends on the status/skill/usefulness of the serf, but for the most part not really, no. But they don't go around committing wholesale genocide on their own crew. My point is you can't compare the atrocities the Night Lords commit against their enemies with the atrocities the Imperium commits against its own people. Apples to oranges. A valid comparison would be how each faction treats its enemies and how each treats its own.

Alright, I guess you could say "One redeeming feature of the Night Lords is that SOME of them treat their serfs well."

Given that's not a trait for the majority of night lords, or a trait associated with the Night Lord's gene seed or so in general (but instead is something up to only a few select individuals), I get the feeling that's not what the original poster is looking for.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Khonsu wrote:Well no, Since the Night Lords are probably motivated by being psychotic killers/Batman-esque murderers and the Imperium being motivated in order to prevent the taint of Chaos spreading/A rebellion spreading.

So, the ends justify the means?

Khonsu wrote:Both are murders but the Night Lords make their victims gak their collective pants before they gouge their eyes out and rape/mutilate them, While the Imperium surgically erases a planet.

So, the means justify the ends?

There's not a great deal of ethical ground to stand on, here. Comparing one mass-murdering group of freedom-loving superhumans to another mass-murdering group of order-loving superhumans... well...

By this point, we're not talking about if there are redeeming qualities to night lords as much as we are talking about redeeming qualities of the Imperium.

He's comparing the reasons why these mass murders happen.

The Night Lords do this for fun, the Imperium out of necessity.

Who says the Night lords do it for fun? They do it to break order and ensure submission. They brutalize a planet to make the next 10 easier for them to conquer.

The imperium brutalizes a planet to keep order and ensure submission.

Both use for, organized violence, to achieve their goals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

And whether or not the Night Lords are slaves of the dark gods is debateable. They might simply be slaves and not realize it.

Bingo.

Do they take pleasure in their nightmarish atrocities? Yes. Do they shed blood? Oh, gods, yes. Do they enact change? Indeed! Do they invoke despair in those who witness the remains of their handiwork? Without question.

While they may not go for the whole pomp and circumstance of Chaos Worship, they are most certainly pawns of the Ruinous Powers.

With that you could put a sizeable proportion of the IoM's armed forces in the "pawns of the ruinous powers" category as well.

I'm not sure where this fact is from, if anyone has a source, feel free to add.

Konrad Curze, after growing up among and observing the people of Nostramo decided, as was his predilection to, the best method to change the exploitative and murderously oppressive regime that was in place, was to take the lynchpin member of such an organization, crush him to a pulp, flay his flesh from his bones and string him up in plain view where all could see what would become of them should they follow the path of corruption. He left the soldiers, the footmen, the laborers of such a system alone. The people just following orders were let live but they were given an example of what would happen to them should they continue what they were doing without question. Did he scare them? Yes, that was his purpose to scare them out of their blind obedience. But he didn't butcher them or force them to change by application of torture. He gave them a choice. Be better, or end up like this man. And he repeated this example on those that would not change to drive home the point.

This I think is a noble goal. He is the definition of a revolutionary. Curze inspires those on bottom to rise up and make something of themselves by showing that cretins and cheats and liars and rapists and murderers all get their just desserts.

This is their redeeming quality as a legion in its inception. To scare the average citizen into choosing the right path by display of punishment for those that do wrong. It is much like how our country's prison system is built today (except that it lacks the capitalist profit scheme and protestant ethical concerns which I believe are both just fetters on society)

The problem that develops in the legion is that which develops in Curze himself. Not that he craves power through terror, not even that he becomes addicted to soaking in the horror and anguish of others (as Curze doesn't really develop these traits, he simply gives up because his foresight allows him to see where such a path leads as regular Night Lords lack) but that he becomes blind to righteousness and corruption. He sees all as criminals as evidenced by his murdering of those that have done no wrong, almost randomly, to keep his citizens in line as his city/planet devolves into chaos on its own. He struggles to tighten his grasp on his people but more and more slip through his fingers. A reign of terror will never last because people adapt to fear and learn from their betters to use it as a tool themselves, to control other people and thus, when Nostramo is finally cleansed, it is the same as it was when Konrad Curze first made his appearance.

It is this that drove the Night Lords to insanity, excess, bloodlust or despair, into the arms of Chaos more than anything else. That all people became targets to them. They saw corruption everywhere (and possibly rightly so) and took rather to trying to destroy entire planets to try and pacify or inspire the greater Imperium but saw no change. Only more corruption. The development of terror as an end rather than a means or a tool and the subsequent bathing in the screams of a dying planet are merely symptoms of this collapsed dichotomy that plagues the Night Lords.

Curze is actually quite similar to Che, come to think of it.

A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.

To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary … These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution!

Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands! My nostrils dilate while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl!

I think Night Haunter could say all those things.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Nah. Tell that to all the Primarchs who grew up on gak-holes and didn't become psychotic monsters.

With the possible exception of Vulkan, they're all psychotic monsters. And even Vulkan was a bit nuts and did some pretty horrible things... he just had the grace to feel bad about it afterwards.