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The Imperium *does* guard information. You won't find things like public libraries that contain books and data slates that are not heavily censored by the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition, for example. You will not find television shows that are not basically Imperial propaganda or religious programming.

Which shows that humans naturally seek knoledge.

The Months of Shame, as the Space Wolves

The Grey Knights call it that.

Further, as Russ was loyal to the Emperor, the Wolves remain loyal to His Imperium. Who would want to be the first Space Wolf to shame the legacy of Russ?

Not that some Space Wolves have not previously fallen to Chaos and turned to the worship of the Ruinous Powers (as happened during the Badab War), but the current-era Space Wolves are presented as being made of much sterner stuff.

And while the Space Wolves have their allies, not all of your allies are going to decide to etch eight-pointed stars into their power armor, give over to the worship of the Chaos Gods, and join sides with the forces they've been fighting for 10,000 years.

I never said they would fall to Chaos, i'm saying that a non chaotic civil war is around the corner. These guys have a shoot on sight policy for Inquisition and Ecclisiarchal ships.

what he wanted for Humanity

He wanted a union of humanity and the warp, this failed because Horus, Fulgrim, Erebus and Phaeron went their own way.

Why not, indeed! This is why ignorance is a virtue in the Imperium. It is because if the masses of Mankind actually had an inkling of an idea of the threats in the galaxy, they would probably off themselves in an orgiastic explosion of violence, rioting and anarchy.

No they would join or found an empire that had some potential of survival.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:


I never said they (Space Wolves) would fall to Chaos, i'm saying that a non chaotic civil war is around the corner. These guys have a shoot on sight policy for Inquisition and Ecclisiarchal ships.

Some corrections.

The end of the Months of Shame ended in a ceasefire between the Wolves and Inquisition. So while the two despise each other (except the Ordos Xenos, which IIRC in another source is stated to get along with the Space Wolves), there's no shoot-on-sight order for either of them (not that they don't end up shooting each other anyways every once in a while, but honestly probably only a little more than most Imperial departments shoot each other)

The Eccesiarchy decided to "let sleeping dogs lie" after their attempted attack on Fenris, which again would probably mean a ceasefire. The Space Wolves only shot at the Ecclesiarchy AFTER they had the audacity to try to land a ship on Fenris according to the latest Logan supplement in spite of the wolves telling them to bugger off while they were in orbit over Fenris. Before then, the wolves just shouted "Go away" a lot at them.

Their main redeeming quality is that they die.

The one and only redeeming feature of the Night Lords, or at least Curze, is that he/they both know that he/they were monsters, but necessary monsters. The vindication of Curze was his death at the hand of the Emperor, despite the Emperor being no better then Curze. All Curze did was not sugarcoat things like the Emperor does.

But ultimately order must be maintained through lethal force- as without it there can be no order. That was the point the Night Haunter was making, as he was just a judge that ruled by martial law alone.

Their redeeming quality is the consistency of their philosophy. The imperium pretends to be honorable and virtuous, and is absolutely fascist and horrible.

The Night Lords admit to what they did and do- rather than trying to pretend.

NIght Haunter died to prove the point. It makes me wonder if the Emperor actually believed in the virtue that he was enforcing on the Night Lords. It is possible that those compromises came little by little, and Night Haunter wanted to let the Emperor know about it.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Drakeslayer wrote:
3) they're BATMAN

Batman does not kill. Ever.

Well, that does depend on whose writing him at the time, but usually he doesn't kill 'ever.'

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Drakeslayer wrote:
3) they're BATMAN

Batman does not kill. Ever.

He certanly did from time to time.


While he dosen't shoot people with regular guns nowadays it's not like Batman is overly concerned by people dying from the abuse he deals out.
There are plenty of instances even in the modern movies and comics where Batman beats people up in such quantity and quality that a few are bound to have died as a result. Having some absolute moral rule against killing people just makes Batman a worse character IMO.

As of the Batman/Night Legion connection. It feels rather forced. Curze in particular has some glaring similarities to the Batman in the pacification of Nostramo but the Legion as a whole hasn't.

A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.

A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.

So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?

Zywus wrote:

A redeeming quality of the Night Lords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.

"If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary"

The thing about the Nightlords is they don't HAVE an ultimate goal.

Yes, causing mass suicides for the sake of overall decreased deaths in pursuit of some arguably nobler cause could arguably be a redeemable trait. It kinda flies out the window if you remove the "in pursuit of a nobler cause" (and maybe replace it with "of Night Lords" right after "decreased deaths")

They aren't even doing it for the sake of Chaos. At least some other Chaos Marines could be said to be doing their baby sacrifices because they honestly believe Chaos should be the just and true masters of the galaxy and/or are the only things that can make it strong enough to survive. Night Lords, however, don't care about Chaos. All those suicides they're causing? They're doing it primarily because they enjoy it, and that's it. Their ultimate goal is "Themselves", and the only ones that would agree with THAT ultimate goal is "Themselves" as well (and, in most cases, it's more "myself" than "themselves").

 Psienesis wrote:

A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.

So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?

No fair making comparisons to actual human organizations.

At which point did I make a direct comparison to an actual human organization?

The Imperium's military forces outnumber the Night Lords, yes or no?

The Night Lords, as a matter of combat doctrine, target civilian populations, yes or no?

That these scenarios are directly relatable to certain RL organizations is beyond my control... but, since 40K is a game of satirical elements, I suppose it is inevitable.

 Psienesis wrote:

A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.

So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?

In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.

In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.

That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.

It is, literally, for the lulz.

 Psienesis wrote:

In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.

That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.

It is, literally, for the lulz.

No, it does serve a goal. The more civilians you terrify, maim, or kill, the greater the damage to the Imperium. Although if Night Lords were truly devious, they wouldn't kill anyone. It's a far greater drain on resources if you just cripple as much of the enemy as you possibly can, as then the enemy must either supply healthcare that drains their resources or they either outright kill or leave the wounded to bleed to death, both of which would cause mass rioting in the enemy state.

Psienesis wrote:

A redeeming quality of the NightLords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.

So, their redeemable quality is that their terrorism is justified against a more-powerful military organization, regardless of civilian casualties?

I wouldn't say that it's justified. But it would be a redeeming quality, would it not?
The Nightlords do not have the means to target the Imperiums military forces in a "fair fight". Even attacking largely civilian targets might be too costly in the long run without using the terror tactics they do in order to diminish their strength.

Psienesis wrote:

In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.

That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.

It is, literally, for the lulz.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Zywus wrote:

A redeeming quality of the Night Lords terror tactics could perhaps be that it isn't used only "for the lulz". There is military advantages to what they are doing. Scaring a population to the extent that they commit mass suicide means you take less causalities. If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary for the legion to succeed in the face of overwhelming imperial numbers.

"If someone were to agree with the Night Lords ultimate goal (whatever it may be) then it could be argued that the artocities they perform are regrettable but necessary"

The thing about the Nightlords is they don't HAVE an ultimate goal.

Yes, causing mass suicides for the sake of overall decreased deaths in pursuit of some arguably nobler cause could arguably be a redeemable trait. It kinda flies out the window if you remove the "in pursuit of a nobler cause" (and maybe replace it with "of Night Lords" right after "decreased deaths")

They aren't even doing it for the sake of Chaos. At least some other Chaos Marines could be said to be doing their baby sacrifices because they honestly believe Chaos should be the just and true masters of the galaxy and/or are the only things that can make it strong enough to survive. Night Lords, however, don't care about Chaos. All those suicides they're causing? They're doing it primarily because they enjoy it, and that's it. Their ultimate goal is "Themselves", and the only ones that would agree with THAT ultimate goal is "Themselves" as well (and, in most cases, it's more "myself" than "themselves").

But is it really true that the NightLords have no goal other than to cause suffering for sufferings sake? They do want the imperium to fall do they not?

And even if their goal is just to care for themselves it would still be rational (if heartless) to use the terror tactics they do, in order to suffer minimal resistance while they wipe out a world in order to plunder supply and to fuel their horrific reputation (something which will help in terrorizing the next world).

"To be a man alive is to be one amongst uncounted billions"

Killing Imperial civilians gains them absolutely nothing.

In the fifteen minutes it took the NL to kill 25,000 people, five and a half trillion more were born elsewhere... at a conservative estimate.

But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.

The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation. Each Nightlord marine lost is a big hit to the legion or warband, as they don't have good infrastructure to replace losses.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

In Total War, civilians are actually a legitimate military target. They're the industry. If you wipe out the civilians of the enemy or scare them senseless to the point that they don't work, the enemy's economy and industry goes up in smoke. Night Lords terror tactics are actually one of the more sensible doctrines in 40k, after the memetic insanity that is the Alpha Legion.

That, in no way, makes those who engage in such activities redeemable, or even forgivable. Especially because, in the current era, the Night Lords don't really stop... unless something arrives to stop them. There's no end-goal to their slaughter, no tactical value to the target.

It is, literally, for the lulz.

No, it does serve a goal. The more civilians you terrify, maim, or kill, the greater the damage to the Imperium. Although if Night Lords were truly devious, they wouldn't kill anyone. It's a far greater drain on resources if you just cripple as much of the enemy as you possibly can, as then the enemy must either supply healthcare that drains their resources or they either outright kill or leave the wounded to bleed to death, both of which would cause mass rioting in the enemy state.

Most Night Lords aren't doing it to damage the Imperium. They're doing it literally for the lulz (or, in some cases, in preparation of more lulz to come).

Zywus wrote:
But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.

The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation.

Except in the imperium all information is heavily censured to the point where no one would know, who the Night Lords are. In the case of a NL raid, civilians will be told they are attacked by pirates, if they told anything at all. PDF and guardsmen will most likely be told they are fighting a renegade SM chapter.

Only top brass would have inklings about what they are dealing with and they’ll keep that info to themselves.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why would Night Lords need redeeming qualities? They're not pretending to be something they aren't.

They've been written as the most evil legion, so I find it interesting to make them appear more redeemable.

The Emperor's Children are the most unrepentantly horrible legion. The Night Lords don't even compare.

Zywus wrote:
But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.

The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation. Each Nightlord marine lost is a big hit to the legion or warband, as they don't have good infrastructure to replace losses.

And? They have nothing redeemable about them that makes their survival a requirement.

 Psienesis wrote:

Zywus wrote:
But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.

The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation. Each Nightlord marine lost is a big hit to the legion or warband, as they don't have good infrastructure to replace losses.

And? They have nothing redeemable about them that makes their survival a requirement.

I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).

Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

Zywus wrote:
But if the planetary defences commit suicide in droves and the discipline implodes due to terror of the Nightlords; any attack gets easier and the killing of civilians in horrific fashion is a part of the terror tactics.

The loss of civilians doesn't hurt the empire as a whole but each Nightlord attack is helped by their methods and reputation.

Except in the imperium all information is heavily censured to the point where no one would know, who the Night Lords are. In the case of a NL raid, civilians will be told they are attacked by pirates, if they told anything at all. PDF and guardsmen will most likely be told they are fighting a renegade SM chapter.

Only top brass would have inklings about what they are dealing with and they’ll keep that info to themselves.

That's a valid point and yea, I guess imperial censorship would make it hard too build up a murderous reputation among the general populace before any attack.
One may wonder though, whether imperial censorship is as effective as they would like it to appear.
There are billions of people on various worlds around the empire with whom the empire has little direct contact with. In the slums and underhives I imagine that tales and rumours spread quite freely.

Even so, the terror tactics is still helpful to the NightLords during an attack on world A, even if people on world B never gets to know the details.

I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).

Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.

In what way is this redeemable? In what way does it not only excuse their actions, but lifts them to a higher moral ground than other Traitor Legions?

Maybe we are operating under different defenitions of the term redeemable?
I never claimed that the nigtlords were operating on a higher moral grounds than the other legions.

Assuming "redeemable" is related to "morally good" (by most standards of morality. Although even the Chaos Gods' idea of morality includes that their servants are supposed to be willing to die for them) instead of just "practical" (since being practical means jack squat for morality if you're doing it just for your own selfish reasons), another part of the whole point of being good is that you're willing to sacrifice yourself for a greater good, or even lay down and die and accept your punishment for doing something evil (down to even committing suicide to atone, going by some moral codes). That Night Lords are doing those atrocities for the sake of their own survival is the OPPOSITE of redeemable, if anything.

 Psienesis wrote:

I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).

Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.

In what way is this redeemable? In what way does it not only excuse their actions, but lifts them to a higher moral ground than other Traitor Legions?

There's a massive difference between the Night Lords being bellends because it helps them survive (though they do enjoy it in the process), and the Emperor's Children being total bellends because they literally get off on it.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

I would say that it's somewhat redeemable that they commit their atrocities ultimately in order to survive (they need to plunder resources to keep their ships and equipment running).

Could they keep themselves supplied without causing as much suffering? Probably. But they don't really have much of an option other than keep raiding the empire or retreat into the warp and give in to chaos.

In what way is this redeemable? In what way does it not only excuse their actions, but lifts them to a higher moral ground than other Traitor Legions?

There's a massive difference between the Night Lords being bellends because it helps them survive (though they do enjoy it in the process), and the Children of the Emperor being total bellends because they literally get off on it.

It should also be noted that there are two different political entities in the Night Lords. Those who view fear as means to an end, and those who view as fear for the sake of fear, and are typically degenerated Raptor Cults.

This brings us back to my original question, then, "What are the ends of the Night Lords that justify the means by which they arrive at them?"

Is it survival? In that case, what is it about the Night Lords that their survival, as an organization, is so desirable to justify their atrocities?

In the case of the Imperium, their atrocities are justified because they are, truly, the last hope for humanity. The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment... all the gak conditions and people living gak lives in the gakkiest conditions imaginable are the results of the absolutely best choices that could have been made at the time, given the circumstances.

So what is it about the Night Lords that the galaxy needs them to survive? Or humanity in general? Or even Chaos?

In what way is the galaxy not better off with the Night Lords entirely dead?

Lol yeah "They have to plunder supplies", The main body of the Thousand Sons being in the warp for like 8k years consecutively disproves that.
They don't need any supplies, If they were that dire for supplies they'd raid in the Eye or whatever but they probably control Demi-forgeworlds there anyways and need no supplies they're just causing Terror for the sake of it or in order to "get off" as you pointed about the Emperor's Children.

In the case of the Imperium, their atrocities are justified because they are, truly, the last hope for humanity. The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment... all the gak conditions and people living gak lives in the gakkiest conditions imaginable are the results of the absolutely best choices that could have been made at the time, given the circumstances.

The Imperials like to say that but humanity might stand a better chance without the high lords of terra, the Emperor thought the stuff that the current Imperium is made of would be the death of humanity.

The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment

Self mutilation nudity and just plain weird, also fluff wise everything that starts out as worship of the Emperor turns into Chaos, probably why the Emperor was creeped out by lorgar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So what is it about the Night Lords that the galaxy needs them to survive? Or humanity in general? Or even Chaos?

The Night Lords of horrible horrible beings but if I were to say what their dong that's redeemable is that their tearing down an empire based on a lie.

 Psienesis wrote:
This brings us back to my original question, then, "What are the ends of the Night Lords that justify the means by which they arrive at them?"

Is it survival? In that case, what is it about the Night Lords that their survival, as an organization, is so desirable to justify their atrocities?

In the case of the Imperium, their atrocities are justified because they are, truly, the last hope for humanity. The Imperium also does not do what it does out of a sense of wicked pleasure or perverse enjoyment... all the gak conditions and people living gak lives in the gakkiest conditions imaginable are the results of the absolutely best choices that could have been made at the time, given the circumstances.

So what is it about the Night Lords that the galaxy needs them to survive? Or humanity in general? Or even Chaos?

In what way is the galaxy not better off with the Night Lords entirely dead?

Except the universe is better off with both everybody dead and nobody dead. The universe isn't effected nor gives a damn about anybody else, it isn't sapient. Now, it could be asked what the Night Lords do for the Imperium, but that would be silly and self centered of the Imperium to believe they're the center of everything and the universe revolves around them.

(Although it does revolve around each individual.)