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Hopefully a couple of easy questions that just needs a little clarification.

First of all, if you cast the dreaded 13th on a unit that contains a special character like a general or something, does the effect happen to special characters as well, or just the standard infantry?

Second question, can you cast the dreaded 13th on a unit that is all ready engaged in combat?

Cheers for any help.

Re the character: If you roll equal to or higher than the number of models in the unit, the character dies. If you roll less, you hit the RnF.

Re the combat situation: No.

Skaven are an old book, written for a previous edition. Unless the spell tells you the unit must be unengaged, then yes you can cast it into combat. The main rulebook says that spells without a type will tell you what restrictions they have.

There are some huge older threads about old book lores. I suggest you try to find them and read through.

Characters in the unit are affected last, but they absolutely can be affected. Which is what makes the Dreaded 13th so deadly.

Which is only to be expected from a spell that pretty much REQUIRES six dice to cast.

You should say that it only works on infantry characters.

You can cast in into combat only if it's a combat with only Slaves on your side
That is because you have to target a unit, hence following the usual rules for such an action
Infantry characters (special or not) will be affected by the spell if you roll high enough to equal or beat the total number of models in the unit

 John Rainbow wrote:
You should say that it only works on infantry characters.

For sake of argument, would you even be able to cast it on a unit that contained a non-infantry character? If a cavalry character joins the unit, the unit's not technically purely infantry anymore, and the spell can only be cast on infantry.

 TanKoL wrote:
You can cast in into combat only if it's a combat with only Slaves on your side

If you can cast into combat, you can cast into ANY combat. The Slaves rule only refers to shooting into combat, which the BRB specifically disallows.

The exact text is:
"Skaven can voluntarily target ranged attacks at enemy units engaged in close combat with Skavenslaves"
target ranged attacks, no reference at all to shooting phase or shooting attacks
Dreaded Thirteen is most definitely a ranger attack and it does require to target a unit

As to the non-infatry characters joining an infantry unit, reading the BRB holds the answer, but for simplicity's sake, here's the FAQ (not errate, but Q&A):

Q: How are casualties from The Curse of the Horned Rat
distributed? What if there are characters in the unit, of troop type
infantry or otherwise? (p79)
A: Compare the result of the 4D6 roll to the number of infantry
models in the unit. If the result is equal to or larger than the
number of infantry models (including any characters that are
infantry) then remove all of the infantry models and replace the
unit with an equal number of Clanrats. Any non-infantry
models left must be placed by the controlling player 1" away
from the newly formed unit, facing in any direction. If the result
is less than the number of infantry models in the result then the
casualties will be distributed as hits from shooting.

As I said above, unless Dreaded 13th is a Magic Missile (it's not) or specifically says in its description that it can only target unengaged Units (not sure but pretty sure it doesn't), you may cast it into combat.

The BRB says that untyped spells will have any casting restrictions in its description. Unless Dreaded 13th says you can't, you can.

 TanKoL wrote:

As to the non-infatry characters joining an infantry unit, reading the BRB holds the answer, but for simplicity's sake, here's the FAQ (not errate, but Q&A):

My bad, I didn't scroll down in the FAQ before I posted... I saw the errata didn't address it and stopped.

Davall wrote:
As I said above, unless Dreaded 13th is a Magic Missile (it's not) or specifically says in its description that it can only target unengaged Units (not sure but pretty sure it doesn't), you may cast it into combat.

The BRB says that untyped spells will have any casting restrictions in its description. Unless Dreaded 13th says you can't, you can.

You need to target a unit. Which can't be done for units that are engaged.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Davall wrote:
As I said above, unless Dreaded 13th is a Magic Missile (it's not) or specifically says in its description that it can only target unengaged Units (not sure but pretty sure it doesn't), you may cast it into combat.

The BRB says that untyped spells will have any casting restrictions in its description. Unless Dreaded 13th says you can't, you can.

You need to target a unit. Which can't be done for units that are engaged.

Wrong, there is no problem targeting a unit in combat with a spell, Hex and augment spells do it all the time.
since the dreaded 13 spell has no type on it, you cannot apply any of the restrictions from the brb to it.

Demelain wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Davall wrote:
As I said above, unless Dreaded 13th is a Magic Missile (it's not) or specifically says in its description that it can only target unengaged Units (not sure but pretty sure it doesn't), you may cast it into combat.

The BRB says that untyped spells will have any casting restrictions in its description. Unless Dreaded 13th says you can't, you can.

You need to target a unit. Which can't be done for units that are engaged.

Wrong, there is no problem targeting a unit in combat with a spell, Hex and augment spells do it all the time.
since the dreaded 13 spell has no type on it, you cannot apply any of the restrictions from the brb to it.

You can target units in combat with hexes and augments because it gives you explicit permission to do so.

Without that permission, you cannot.

TDA is correct
You indeed cannot target a unit engaged in CC unless you have a specific permission to do so. Hex and blessings do, being in CC with Slaves only is another case where you can
Some other spells circumvent this by not targeting a unit, like vortexes, lines that extend from you (crack's call), or spells that "target a point within xxx" (like Scorch)

Not casting into combat is a restriction imposed by the BRB.

The very same BRB tells you to read the spell's description in the case of a spell that doesn't have a type to see what restrictions it may have.

Dreaded 13th doesn't have a type.

Dreaded 13th doesn't impose any targeting restrictions in its description except for its range.

Therefore, you may cast 360 degree, no line of sight and at engaged units.

RAW says cast on engaged units.

This is all from the magic section. If there is something else from the Skaven book that poses an additional restriction, then quote it and lay it to bed.

Davall wrote:
Not casting into combat is a restriction imposed by the BRB.

The very same BRB tells you to read the spell's description in the case of a spell that doesn't have a type to see what restrictions it may have.

Dreaded 13th doesn't have a type.

Dreaded 13th doesn't impose any targeting restrictions in its description except for its range.

Therefore, you may cast 360 degree, no line of sight and at engaged units.

RAW says cast on engaged units.

This is all from the magic section. If there is something else from the Skaven book that poses an additional restriction, then quote it and lay it to bed.

The spell targets a unit. It has to be eligible to be targetted by restrictions.

As you don't have a spell type, it can't follow the permissions to target combat that hexes and augments do.

THAT is RAW.

 TanKoL wrote:
TDA is correct
You indeed cannot target a unit engaged in CC unless you have a specific permission to do so. Hex and blessings do, being in CC with Slaves only is another case where you can
Some other spells circumvent this by not targeting a unit, like vortexes, lines that extend from you (crack's call), or spells that "target a point within xxx" (like Scorch)

No, TDA is not correct, not strictly.

The BRB rules are very clear - either you follow spell restrictions due to type, OR the spell will CLEARLY state any restrictions that spell has. It does NOT, accoriding to the BRB , list *further* restrictions (i.e. normal restictions apply, such as arc, combat, etc)

Skaven contains no restrictions whatsoever, and no spell types. As such, the normal allowance to target an enemy unit is not denied by the normal restriction on targetting units in close combat.

There is no need to have permission to cast into close cobat, as you in general have permission to target any enemy unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 TanKoL wrote:
TDA is correct
You indeed cannot target a unit engaged in CC unless you have a specific permission to do so. Hex and blessings do, being in CC with Slaves only is another case where you can
Some other spells circumvent this by not targeting a unit, like vortexes, lines that extend from you (crack's call), or spells that "target a point within xxx" (like Scorch)

No, TDA is not correct, not strictly.

The BRB rules are very clear - either you follow spell restrictions due to type, OR the spell will CLEARLY state any restrictions that spell has. It does NOT, accoriding to the BRB , list *further* restrictions (i.e. normal restictions apply, such as arc, combat, etc)

Skaven contains no restrictions whatsoever, and no spell types. As such, the normal allowance to target an enemy unit is not denied by the normal restriction on targetting units in close combat.

There is no need to have permission to cast into close cobat, as you in general have permission to target any enemy unit.

The BRB states that you cannot target a unit in combat. (Page 31.)

Dreaded 13th requires a target unit. (Check the first line of the spell.)

Tell me. Where is the allowance to target a unit in combat?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Davall wrote:
Not casting into combat is a restriction imposed by the BRB.

The very same BRB tells you to read the spell's description in the case of a spell that doesn't have a type to see what restrictions it may have.

Dreaded 13th doesn't have a type.

Dreaded 13th doesn't impose any targeting restrictions in its description except for its range.

Therefore, you may cast 360 degree, no line of sight and at engaged units.

RAW says cast on engaged units.

This is all from the magic section. If there is something else from the Skaven book that poses an additional restriction, then quote it and lay it to bed.

The spell targets a unit. It has to be eligible to be targetted by restrictions.

As you don't have a spell type, it can't follow the permissions to target combat that hexes and augments do.

THAT is RAW.

The BRB says if the spell doesn't have a type, read its description to find any casting restrictions it may have.

pg 31 "-their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply."

Ok, so let's go to the Dreaded 13th's spell description, shall we?

pg79 Skaven Army Book: "This spell can affect a single infantry unit within 24" and line of sight of the caster."

How many restrictions are listed there? The correct answer is three.

1) Single Infantry Unit.

2) Within 24".

3) Within line of sight of the caster.

I will wait for you to show me where it says the unit must be unengaged. Wait, no I won't as it doesn't say that IN THE SPELL'S DESCRIPTION as required by the BRB.

So to recap, the BRB says, "Hey, that spell doesn't fit the normal rules, so go read its description to see what restrictions it has." The spell says "This is how I work". It doesn't have the restriction you claim it does.

Until you can show what the BRB actually tells you to do is wrong, you have zero argument. Please stop confusing newer players.

"-their text will contain ANY RESTRICTIONS THAT APPLY." Until you can refute that, you have no argument.

Davall wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Davall wrote:
Not casting into combat is a restriction imposed by the BRB.

The very same BRB tells you to read the spell's description in the case of a spell that doesn't have a type to see what restrictions it may have.

Dreaded 13th doesn't have a type.

Dreaded 13th doesn't impose any targeting restrictions in its description except for its range.

Therefore, you may cast 360 degree, no line of sight and at engaged units.

RAW says cast on engaged units.

This is all from the magic section. If there is something else from the Skaven book that poses an additional restriction, then quote it and lay it to bed.

The spell targets a unit. It has to be eligible to be targetted by restrictions.

As you don't have a spell type, it can't follow the permissions to target combat that hexes and augments do.

THAT is RAW.

The BRB says if the spell doesn't have a type, read its description to find any casting restrictions it may have.

pg 31 "-their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply."

Ok, so let's go to the Dreaded 13th's spell description, shall we?

pg79 Skaven Army Book: "This spell can affect a single infantry unit within 24" and line of sight of the caster."

How many restrictions are listed there? The correct answer is three.

1) Single Infantry Unit.

2) Within 24".

3) Within line of sight of the caster.

I will wait for you to show me where it says the unit must be unengaged. Wait, no I won't as it doesn't say that IN THE SPELL'S DESCRIPTION as required by the BRB.

So to recap, the BRB says, "Hey, that spell doesn't fit the normal rules, so go read its description to see what restrictions it has." The spell says "This is how I work". It doesn't have the restriction you claim it does.

Until you can show what the BRB actually tells you to do is wrong, you have zero argument. Please stop confusing newer players.

"-their text will contain ANY RESTRICTIONS THAT APPLY." Until you can refute that, you have no argument.

Yes. The spell doesn't actually give you permission to break the targetting rules either.

The BRB lists the spells that can target into combat.

Hexes. augments, and vortexes. That's it. Spells without a type follow the rules set forth in the BRB. They don't have any restrictions in their text, but this does not give them permission to break the restrictions set forth in the BRB. Unless you have a rule that specifically overrides the BRB restrictions, like slaves, then you have to follow them.

ANY RESTRICTIONS THAT APPLY.

You still haven't refuted that. You are worse than a broken record as recent threads have proven.

Back to ignore land with you.

Davall wrote:
ANY RESTRICTIONS THAT APPLY.

You still haven't refuted that. You are worse than a broken record as recent threads have proven.

Back to ignore land with you.

All restrictions apply. Why do you not understand this.

You have no permission to ignore any restrictions.


The BRB also states: "Unless stated otherwise the following rules apply: - The target must lie in the forward arc. - The wizard does not need line of sight to the target. - The target must le within the spell's range. - Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat."


Tell me where it states you can ignore the restrictions? You are allowed to target an enemy unit within 24". There is nothing about targetting units in combat, that means you follow the rules in the rulebook.

"their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply."

Basic English. And back to ignore for reelz this time.

Davall wrote:
"their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply."

Basic English. And back to ignore for reelz this time.

Do you even read? The text tells you to target a unit within 24". That's it. The unit has to be unengaged, as the spell does not state otherwise. Thus it follows the restrictions set forth in the BRB.

Here is the text from the BRB

CHOOSING A TARGET
Targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:
• The target must lie within the Wizard's forward arc.
• The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target.
• The target must he within the spell's range.
• Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.
Some spells have a type that enforces additional casting restrictions, or waives others. There are five distinct types of spell: augment, direct damage, hex, magic missile and magical vortex. Some unique spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books, do not have a type — their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

This it the part that is important for this discussion.
Some unique spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books, do not have a type — their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

This states otherwise, so the rules above does not apply to the 13 spell

This part is the one that is really important
their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

So by reading this we can conclude that the only restrictions that apply to the 13 spell is the ones stated in the spell, all the other restrictions do not apply to the spell.

Demelain wrote:
Here is the text from the BRB

CHOOSING A TARGET
Targeting restrictions vary from spell to spell. However, unless stated otherwise the following rules apply:
• The target must lie within the Wizard's forward arc.
• The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target.
• The target must he within the spell's range.
• Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat.
Some spells have a type that enforces additional casting restrictions, or waives others. There are five distinct types of spell: augment, direct damage, hex, magic missile and magical vortex. Some unique spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books, do not have a type — their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

This it the part that is important for this discussion.
Some unique spells, or spells that are printed in older Warhammer Armies books, do not have a type — their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

This states otherwise, so the rules above does not apply to the 13 spell

This part is the one that is really important
their text will contain any casting restrictions that apply.

So by reading this we can conclude that the only restrictions that apply to the 13 spell is the ones stated in the spell, all the other restrictions do not apply to the spell.

No.

You always follow the restrictions in the BRB. Unless the text in the spell states otherwise. Which Dreaded 13th does not.

Don't worry, I am sure he will fail to understand what "any" "apply" and "their text" mean in a sentence.

It's best to just put him on ignore.

Davall wrote:
Don't worry, I am sure he will fail to understand what "any" "apply" and "their text" mean in a sentence.

It's best to just put him on ignore.

Restrictions do apply. Except that Dreaded Thirteenth HAS NONE.

It does not limit anything you cannot do. It only lists what you can do.

The restrictions given by the book are still applicable as such.

thanks for the replays peeps.

when we played ,y friend was a miffed that the dreaded 13th has the strength to take out a fair few hundred points of model with one go.

but I did counter that its not an easy spell to cast.

as for the other seems theres lots of opinion there. in the game we played we chose to allow casting into combat, but yeah its not very clear cut.