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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Augustine is one of the church fathers and a doctor of the church. As an authority on authentic Christian theology, he's about as important as you can get outside of Paul (keeping in mind that Augustine's theology has its problems). Even the current edition of the Catechism adopts his formulation -- indeed, specifically regarding homosexuality, condemning prejudice against homosexual people while declaring that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.

Don't get me wrong -- I understand that is a meaningful distinction. But unfortunately it has allowed some people to disguise their bigotry against homosexual people as some kind of Christian teaching.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/13 22:30:24


   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 Ouze wrote:
This thread has strongly reinforced my belief that threads with religious discussion are dangerous to your ability to post on DakkaDakka if you're not on the right team. I generally avoid them and this thread quickly reminded me that is the best policy.


It has nothing to do with that.

It has a whole lot to do with this thread going from an incredibly civil discourse to one bigoted poster bringing it down.

Wait, did I use bigot right there? I'm not sure. As a white male I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to use it...

 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 Manchu wrote:
homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.


Or is it intrinsically disordered to believe it is intrinsically disorder? Checkmate. Good day sir. *folds up newspaper, puts it under arm, and walks away*

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Ahtman wrote:
Checkmate. Good day sir. *folds up newspaper, puts it under arm, and walks away*
Check mate?

*stares blankly at Monopoly board on table*

   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






I said 'good day sir'. Harumph

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






I think he means go to jail.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Ahtman wrote:
Most things like DOMA aren't from a place of hate, though I'm sure some do, but from ignorance and platitudes like the one given don't really change that.



Actually, I'd posit that DOMA came exactly from a place of hate, as it was the "moral traditionalist" conservatives that got that bill pushed through. Clinton himself has said he would never have signed it, if he could go back and have a mulligan on that one, but when you see the people vehemently fighting to KEEP it around, it really makes sense.

If nothing else, it came from a place of "hate" due to coming from a fear due to ignorance.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 cincydooley wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
This thread has strongly reinforced my belief that threads with religious discussion are dangerous to your ability to post on DakkaDakka if you're not on the right team. I generally avoid them and this thread quickly reminded me that is the best policy.


It has nothing to do with that.

It has a whole lot to do with this thread going from an incredibly civil discourse to one bigoted poster bringing it down.

Wait, did I use bigot right there? I'm not sure. As a white male I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to use it...


A strong opinion was expressed regarding the moral authority of the RC church. That is absolutely fine. It was then repeated and looked set to be repeated again and again due to the strength of feeling.

This is a discussion forum. There is no point saying the same thing over and over again. It has the danger of dragging the topic off course and in some sense is a type of spam.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Manchu wrote:
Keep in mind, "being gay" is not inherently sinful. Homosexual acts are sinful. The Church has been making this distinction for a long time but you know in practice it doesn't do much to mitigate prejudice and the feeling of unwelcomeness that gay Catholics feel regarding their religion.

What we have here is the idea that non-ideal relationships (not limited to homosexual ones) have dimensions that are more than "non-sinful" but are actually good and commendable.

Also the Catholic Church is in no sense "monolithic."


For the non-Catholic, can you put that in non-Catholic lingo? Sounds good, but what does that mean?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SilverMK2 wrote:
The pope is not the church. And the church is very much a hypocritical institution who have less than zero moral integrity to tell people how to live their lives.


Can you go peddle your hostility somewhere else? You're just trolling the thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cincydooley wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
This thread has strongly reinforced my belief that threads with religious discussion are dangerous to your ability to post on DakkaDakka if you're not on the right team. I generally avoid them and this thread quickly reminded me that is the best policy.


It has nothing to do with that.

It has a whole lot to do with this thread going from an incredibly civil discourse to one bigoted poster bringing it down.

Wait, did I use bigot right there? I'm not sure. As a white male I'm not even sure if I'm allowed to use it...

Check your privilege!

Sorry back to topic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 15:10:58


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Frazzled wrote:
For the non-Catholic, can you put that in non-Catholic lingo? Sounds good, but what does that mean?
What I meant is, until this Synod report, most bishops talked about homosexuality in terms of (a) persons and (b) acts. Homosexual persons should be treated with the compassion and dignity due to every human being. BUT homosexual acts should be considered to be sinful and "disordered" (contrary to nature).

There are (at least) two big problems with this:

First, separating people from acts is not so easy. If you define X as bad and someone does X on a daily basis then you are likely to think of that person as bad, too. Right, so let's replace X with "lying" -- someone who lies all the time is a liar and is not only untrustworthy but also a bad person for constantly deceiving others. If you replace X with "being gay," however, it becomes more difficult for people (at least in contemporary times) to see how that comes out to being a bad person. IMO, homophobia does not come from Catholic teaching. But Catholic teaching has played a role in excusing and even justifying homophobia.

Second, this way of thinking emphasizes (a) persons and (b) acts but homosexuality nowadays is not just a matter of people committing sex acts. Any teaching on homosexuality should focus less on sex acts and more on personal relationships, which Rome has pretty much completely ignored until this Synod report. What two people, of the same sex or otherwise, are doing with their body parts is not the only relevant issue. What is also relevant, in terms of sin and grace, are relational aspects like compassion, solidarity, and affection. The Synod report, for example, speaks of homosexual relationships providing "precious support" for the couple.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 15:27:38


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

And this revised "opinion" notes this?

So to restate for the neaderthal:
1. Quit hiding behind the Bible to be a bigot.
2. Its about the relationship, stupid.
correct?


I can get behind both of those. Soon you will all fall to the Episcopal side muahaha, replete with really awesome cake! I wonder if St. Maichael's in Austin has started doing them yet. They had received official approval.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 15:37:45


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

The Bible doesn't really come into it one way or another. But like I said, it is time for a teaching that makes it clear that Christianity is not the same thing as homophobia.
 Frazzled wrote:
Soon you will all fall to the Episcopal side
No chance. We Catholics believe in God.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 15:39:54


   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Manchu wrote:
The Bible doesn't really come into it one way or another. But like I said, it is time for a teaching that makes it clear that Christianity is not the same thing as homophobia.

Sorry went back to my Baptist ways wherein the only thing that matters is the Bible. But we're syaing the same I think. You can't use Christianity as crutch for your bigotry.



 Frazzled wrote:
Soon you will all fall to the Episcopal side
No chance. We Catholics believe in Dog.

Corrected your typo.



-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Frazzled wrote:
You can't use Christianity as crutch for your bigotry.
Yes, I agree that is a very important point.
 Frazzled wrote:
We Catholics believe in Dog
Well sure, we believe dogs exist. Have you guys also started to doubt the existence of dogs???

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Heresy!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






After some consultation with the people who deal with this sort of thing it is official:



also:

Spoiler:

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Funny enough, the hard right in American Catholicism is fully mobilized in an effort to downplay this as misreporting by the liberal media.

   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




My secret fortress at the base of the volcano!

 Manchu wrote:
Funny enough, the hard right in American Catholicism is fully mobilized in an effort to downplay this as misreporting by the liberal media.


It's not just the American hard right. Every time the Pope says something even vaguely forward-thinking, the conservative cardinals in the Church bust out the "What you think the Pope siad vs what the Pope 'actually' said" spin control machine. Fortunately, the Pope speaks plainly and bluntly and doesn't use too many weasal words, which makes it hard for the conservative cardinals to warp the message as much as they would like.

Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
   
Made in tr
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Oxfordshire UK

So, let me get this straight. His Popeness says " Gays are ok, they have skills and qualities that can add to the church" or something to that effect, and that's fine and dandy. But of course, Gays can't marry and I guess still feel ostracized by the Catholic Church as a whole. So, can someone explain, to an ardent non-believer, what possible difference this news will make to LGBT's around the world?



 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
So, let me get this straight. His Popeness says " Gays are ok, they have skills and qualities that can add to the church" or something to that effect, and that's fine and dandy. But of course, Gays can't marry and I guess still feel ostracized by the Catholic Church as a whole. So, can someone explain, to an ardent non-believer, what possible difference this news will make to LGBT's around the world?


He basically said don't "be a bigot".

Manchu can elaborate (and has in this thread) more.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 whembly wrote:


Manchu can elaborate (and has in this thread) more.


Reading all of our earlier commentary is hard though, Whembly....

 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Oxfordshire UK

 cincydooley wrote:
 whembly wrote:


Manchu can elaborate (and has in this thread) more.


Reading all of our earlier commentary is hard though, Whembly....


Sarcasm? Nice.... That's why I tend not to post in religious threads. *shrugs*


 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 whembly wrote:
He basically said don't "be a bigot".


Which is nothing new from the church. Rephrasing old ideas without changing the core issues doesn't make make that much of a difference.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





South Wales

It certainly sounds nicer though!

Prestor Jon wrote:
Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Perhaps stirring the pot, but what strikes me in this thread is the difference to how hostile opinions towards a christian denomination are treated compared to how hostile opinions towards a muslim denomination have been treated in previous threads. Disappointing.

I'm ambivalent about this. It's a good PR exercise in the attempt to win back lapsed catholics in the developed world, but I am extremely skeptical that it will lead to anything substantial any time soon.

I don't feel like applauding that organisation for such minute progress, when it's got so far to go still.

Then again, my feelings on the Catholic church are strong and bordering on irrational I reckon, to the point that I wouldn't raise my kids in Ireland until they are rooted out of the education and health systems entirely.

But when negative feeling to that extent exists, there is usually a reason for it.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Ahtman wrote:
Rephrasing old ideas without changing the core issues doesn't make make that much of a difference.
I have explained what is new and significant about this several times ITT.
 Da Boss wrote:
but I am extremely skeptical that it will lead to anything substantial any time soon
It really depends on what you mean by "substantial" and "soon."
 Da Boss wrote:
But when negative feeling to that extent exists, there is usually a reason for it.
As I have in the past, I would ask you to consider Catholicism and Irish Catholicism, or what we might as well call modern Irish history, as separate things.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:09:20


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Da Boss wrote:
Perhaps stirring the pot, but what strikes me in this thread is the difference to how hostile opinions towards a christian denomination are treated compared to how hostile opinions towards a muslim denomination have been treated in previous threads. Disappointing.




To be completely fair, there are some non-Christians in this thread as well. Personally, my opinion of Islam is very negative, and a good deal of that is down to life experiences in a desert environment. There are a great many aspects of Christianity that I take a negative view of.

In some cases, ITT, this can be put down to "banter" and not outright proselytizing of the various faiths.


Besides, Odin and Thor welcome all into the halls of Valhalla. All you have to do is be a good warrior
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

It really does, doesn't it?

I think the Catholic Church essentially faces a marketing problem. It's core market is diminishing as the more liberal and individualistic approaches of Protestantism are becoming the "default" in many developed countries at the same time as increasing numbers of catholics simply lose all faith. So the church is left with the choice to liberalise, and therefore lose what keeps it distinct and special from it's competitors and try to catch some of that market (and accurately reflect the opinions and behaviours of a larger segment of society) or to double down on it's "special features" in the hopes of retaining it's core market and perhaps increasing it's appeal to certain niche groups.

I think the inherently conservative nature of the institution will mean that it will see saw between the two without really fully committing to either, and that the active population in the church will drip away as the priesthood slowly dwindles.

Edit: I was thinking of your post on that, and I have thought on it more than once since you made it. I guess I come down on the fact that Irish catholicism is still catholicism, and the hierarchy is still answerable for what was done in it's name. If it makes you feel any better, my anger at the failed political systems in the republic is even greater.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:13:58


   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 Manchu wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Rephrasing old ideas without changing the core issues doesn't make make that much of a difference.
I have explained what is new and significant about this several times ITT


And none of that changed the core problems which is that homosexuality is still considered a sin and that gays still can't get married within the church. Just noting that they aren't horrible people outright doesn't get rid of the issues that many LGBT have with the Catholic Church. Note I'm not saying the church has to or should change its stance, but that the proclamation doesn't really change the issues that the gay community, Catholic or otherwise, has.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas





Besides, Odin and Thor welcome all into the halls of Valhalla. All you have to do is be a good warrior

Pfft, thats practically slavery. All the Great Wienie requests is a pocket full of tasty treats, and occasionally help up onto the sofa.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ahtman wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Rephrasing old ideas without changing the core issues doesn't make make that much of a difference.
I have explained what is new and significant about this several times ITT


And none of that changed the core problems which is that homosexuality is still considered a sin and that gays still can't get married within the church. Just noting that they aren't horrible people outright doesn't get rid of the issues that many LGBT have with the Catholic Church. Note I'm not saying the church has to or should change its stance, but that the proclamation doesn't really change the issues that the gay community, Catholic or otherwise, has.


Divorce is also considered a sin. Many divorced people don't have a problem with the Catholic Church. This may be shifting into that category.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 19:20:21


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
 
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