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As one of the more significant (read GW favoured) galactic empires, will the Tau enter into an alliance with the Imperium? Or perhaps they eventually carve enough out of Humanities realm that they force the Imperium to broker a truce? what do you think?

The entire purpose of the Tau's existence is manifest destiny as is the Imperium's. So... either the Tau gets exterminated or they eventually topple the rotting Imperium.

If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).

A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).

A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.

It would require a miracle for the AdMech to allow earth caste engineers anywhere near a forgeworld let alone a manufactorum. However should the Fabricator General stop being as thick as clotted cream and allow technological advancement on all fronts, a Tau-Imperium Tech sharing agreement would probably cause all the other races to wilt away from any kind of conflict. Except Chaos because they're nut and the nids because they're hungry.

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).

A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.

It would require a miracle for the AdMech to allow earth caste engineers anywhere near a forgeworld let alone a manufactorum. However should the Fabricator General stop being as thick as clotted cream and allow technological advancement on all fronts, a Tau-Imperium Tech sharing agreement would probably cause all the other races to wilt away from any kind of conflict. Except Chaos because they're nut and the nids because they're hungry.

True. I'm sure in a couple hundred years it will change, but it would be slow.

I've been coming up with a lot of progression scenarios lately.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If the impirium has a major calamity, the tau could claim enough worlds to make the imprium have a truce with the tau. They might even ally with them if the disaster is bad enough (chaos conquering terra and the surrounding lands, ect.).

A tau-human alliance would be a fore to be reckoned with. They tau could certainly retro-fit the existing imperial manafactoriums to produce high tech gear. The tau are a lot more efficient with their recorces, and only elite troops such as space marines and storm troopers would get the big stuff as first, but the rank and file would get it eventually, shrinking in size but growing in power. The tau's technological prowess and innovation combined the the imperium's vast recorces and military might. They would be practically unstoppable. The tau also know how to run systems as small microcosms, thus not needing constant monitoring from the central unit.

It would require a miracle for the AdMech to allow earth caste engineers anywhere near a forgeworld let alone a manufactorum. However should the Fabricator General stop being as thick as clotted cream and allow technological advancement on all fronts, a Tau-Imperium Tech sharing agreement would probably cause all the other races to wilt away from any kind of conflict. Except Chaos because they're nut and the nids because they're hungry.

True. I'm sure in a couple hundred years it will change, but it would be slow.

I've been coming up with a lot of progression scenarios lately.

Be happy to hear some of them if you've got the time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing that also impedes Tau-Imperium alliances are the governing bodies of both empires, the Ethereals would never accept the terms offered by the High Lords as their pursuit of the greater good would conflict, nor would the High Lords be willing to allow the Tau to potentially spread that ideology as it conflicts with the Ecclisiarchy.

If tau shares some easy ways of mass production of superior tech that IOM was not able to figure out yet, they'd just get wiped after the current threat got dealt with. That's human nature. Remember native americans helping out the settlers, eh? So, it's really not in Tau interests to bolster IOM unless they're unaware of that common human feature.

If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.

 PhillyT wrote:
If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.

The Tau have dealt with Tyranids before... with more ease than the Imperium did. Simply because something is difficult for the Imperium doesn't mean its difficult for everyone.

The Tau and the Imperium have worked together - much as the Imperium and the Eldar have done - but with such diffrent universe views - the two Empires can only co-exist on a tempoary basis or until the Tau Empire is big enough to rate as a proper threat.

The Tau are still a very very small empire.

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:
As one of the more significant (read GW favoured) galactic empires, will the Tau enter into an alliance with the Imperium? Or perhaps they eventually carve enough out of Humanities realm that they force the Imperium to broker a truce? what do you think?

No, and No.

Tau will stay in the 40k verse as long as GW favors them.

Humans stay in the 40k verse as the main actor of the game until GW paints itself into a corner.

That being said, the Tau don't have real alliances. They plan to rule, to have you join. Not to get along independently.
Mankind isn't interested in being ruled by xeno overlords. Because old night. Because of events in Humans history that nearly undid the species. This means short lived temporary alliances are possible ( to arrange an accident later...) but long term the course is set upon a secure Galaxy , a xeno - free Galaxy.

The setup of 40k is made so No one could forge a lasting alliance. Eternal War needs eternal conflict. Eternal conflict needs reasons to keep on going.

Imperium - Tau relations are :

- without shared interests.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Emperor Pigeon wrote:
As one of the more significant (read GW favoured) galactic empires, will the Tau enter into an alliance with the Imperium? Or perhaps they eventually carve enough out of Humanities realm that they force the Imperium to broker a truce? what do you think?

No, and No.

Tau will stay in the 40k verse as long as GW favors them.

Humans stay in the 40k verse as the main actor of the game until GW paints itself into a corner.

That being said, the Tau don't have real alliances. They plan to rule, to have you join. Not to get along independently.
Mankind isn't interested in being ruled by xeno overlords. Because old night. Because of events in Humans history that nearly undid the species. This means short lived temporary alliances are possible ( to arrange an accident later...) but long term the course is set upon a secure Galaxy , a xeno - free Galaxy.

The setup of 40k is made so No one could forge a lasting alliance. Eternal War needs eternal conflict. Eternal conflict needs reasons to keep on going.

Imperium - Tau relations are :

- without shared interests.

Survival is a shared interest, surely the Tau are not so arrogant as to believe they can defeat entire hivefleets, with the threat of the Tyranids increasing on the eastern fringe it is entirely possible that the Imperium could set up an alliance should worst come to worst and the bulk of the hive fleet be too massive for the armies stationed there. Yes I do see how moronic it is using Xenos to kill Xenos but alas, this is the age of the Imperium.

Yeah, if the Imperium ever get's their gak in gear the Tau will be annihilated.

It's simple math, of course that doesn't actually apply in 40k because GW writers don't ever think about it, but yeah...the space frogs will go the way of all the other upstart alien races that the Imperium has encountered.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Yeah, if the Imperium ever get's their gak in gear the Tau will be annihilated.

It's simple math, of course that doesn't actually apply in 40k because Abaddon is sacking Cadia and preparing to rip the Eye of Terror wide open..

I fixed it for you.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.

The Tau have dealt with Tyranids before... with more ease than the Imperium did. Simply because something is difficult for the Imperium doesn't mean its difficult for everyone.

...Hive Fleet Gorgon was a "relatively small hive fleet", and its two-year rampage took up a large chunk of the Tau empire. The Tau merely managed to exploit the one weakness the Hive fleet had -- Gorgon's unusually hyper evolving cycles are costly to the small hive fleet's biomass. The Tau were only playing an exhausting game of attrition with the Tyranids at best. Their final victory is only achieved through an uneasy (and eventually costly) alliance with an imperial fleet. I fail to see how the Tau had "more ease" dealing with the Tyranids than the Imperium.

On the other hand, said Imperial Fleet was commanded by Castellan Crask at the time, and as far as I can tell, was said to engaged with the Tau shortly afterwards.

There can be no peace between the Imperium and the Tau -- there are simply far too great a difference in ideologies and politics, not to mention all that bad blood, neither will back down. This can only end when either one of the empires is destroyed by something.

You have to remember farsight's insta-kill virus that destroyed an entire fleet within hours. If he could do it with his limited records, I'm sure that the tau empire could so just that, although the virus would have to be made specifically for each fleet to cope with differences in the genetics.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
If a calamity toppled earth, what would happen is the Imperium would revert to a few thousand petty Empires or isolated worlds. The Tau might start gobbling a few up... then the tyranids kill them all.

The Tau have dealt with Tyranids before... with more ease than the Imperium did. Simply because something is difficult for the Imperium doesn't mean its difficult for everyone.

Not really.

And the coming tyranid menace is beyond anything anyone has dealt with if the fluff is to be believed.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You have to remember farsight's insta-kill virus that destroyed an entire fleet within hours. If he could do it with his limited records, I'm sure that the tau empire could so just that, although the virus would have to be made specifically for each fleet to cope with differences in the genetics.

Same as the Imperium has the Life-eater virus and other nasty stuff - but they are cautious with it as they don't want the Nids to adapt to it and/or use it as a weapon themselves................

Tyranid Hive Fleets have destroyed a highest Grade Forge World (with on planet elite Titan legion) and all the vast firepower that such a world can muster- in 3 days- the Tau are equally susceptible to such massive and unrelenting force and more so as unlike say the Orks - they have to safeguard their large civilian populations.

According to the Cain novels, they have a formal truce post-Third Expansion attacks to deal with Nids. Lots and lots of Nids.

Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion, but it will take the Tau millenia to conquer enough territory to actually threaten the Imperium beyond the eastern part of Ultima Segmentum. Even if they do develop faster FTL.

Being non-confrontational compared to Nids, Lolcrons, Chaos loons, Eldar pirates abducting entire worlds etc, Imperial bureaucrats and military leaders are entirely happy to neglect crushing the Tau basically forever. The Tau don't threaten the existence of the Imperium as a whole except on the very very long term.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:


Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...

How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."

 koooaei wrote:

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:


Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...

How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."

My point isn't that the Imperium will be threatened and the Tau won't be, my point is that both are threatened and both have different ways of dealing with it. The Tau regards the Imperium as an existential threat (as they should), while the Imperium doesn't regard the Tau in the same way. There is no reason to believe that Tau expansion will stop given that it has continued for hundreds of years and Tau naivity decreases with every alien encounter. There is also no reason to believe that the Imperium will ever regard the Tau as large enough of a threat compared to Tyranids, Necrons, or Chaos to actually warrant crushing as long as they stay in the eastern sectors of Ultima Segmentum. Given that those sectors are on the path of least resistance for the Tau, it will be a very long time before the Imperium even bothers to try to crush the Tau. The Imperium is just utterly unassailable for the Tau, both sides know it and both sides play to that. The Imperium has bigger fish to fry, while the Tau take just enough worlds to keep their expansion going while not threatening the established order of things on the large scale.

The Imperium is a stagnant society, but one that has vastly more experience in dealing with most of the threats out there. It is also so large and dispersed that it can afford to take losses from the Tau with ease while it deals with real threats. By contrast, the Tau are getting better at dealing with the myriad threats to it and will continue to do so because they're a progressive society. The Tau will get better and better because they can and they must in order to survive.

 koooaei wrote:

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:


Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...

How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."

The advantage of being a small empire is that the threats actually have to encounter you.

Besides, the Nids are making for the Golden Throne, from what I understand. From the map, it looks like Behemoth is staying south of them and Kraken north. Gorgon was stamped out.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:


Given the emerging and existing threats to both the Tau and the Imperium, my prediction is this: In the darkness of the far future, there is only war. The Imperium won't ever get the chance to stop Tau expansion...

How come that noone significant is gona attack the expanding tau while constantly threatening imperium?
It's like telling that: "Your plain can only reach 1200 kmph limit due to air resistance. And mine will fly 1500 kmph! If we ignore air resistance."

My point isn't that the Imperium will be threatened and the Tau won't be, my point is that both are threatened and both have different ways of dealing with it. The Tau regards the Imperium as an existential threat (as they should), while the Imperium doesn't regard the Tau in the same way. There is no reason to believe that Tau expansion will stop given that it has continued for hundreds of years and Tau naivity decreases with every alien encounter. There is also no reason to believe that the Imperium will ever regard the Tau as large enough of a threat compared to Tyranids, Necrons, or Chaos to actually warrant crushing as long as they stay in the eastern sectors of Ultima Segmentum. Given that those sectors are on the path of least resistance for the Tau, it will be a very long time before the Imperium even bothers to try to crush the Tau. The Imperium is just utterly unassailable for the Tau, both sides know it and both sides play to that. The Imperium has bigger fish to fry, while the Tau take just enough worlds to keep their expansion going while not threatening the established order of things on the large scale.

The Imperium is a stagnant society, but one that has vastly more experience in dealing with most of the threats out there. It is also so large and dispersed that it can afford to take losses from the Tau with ease while it deals with real threats. By contrast, the Tau are getting better at dealing with the myriad threats to it and will continue to do so because they're a progressive society. The Tau will get better and better because they can and they must in order to survive.

Until they can't.

Threats that they can't actually stop:

1. Tyranids
2. Chaos
3. Orks
4. Necron
5. The Imperium

The Tau can mitigate threats in their immediate vicinity as long as none of those 5 see them as the most tempting target or dangerous threat. If at any point any of the above see the Tau as a target, they are done. They cannot stop those five because they are simply too small. No matter what perceived advantage they have technologically (which is small, minuscule, or none depending on the race) there numbers are so low that the technology cannot hope to make up the difference.

No the problem is that you are saying the Tau will cobtinue to expand onto Imperial worlds and the Imperium won't attack because of... a treaty.

Tyranids: Are heading for the Astronomican, not the Tau Empire, in terms of priority targets. Given the structure of Tau society, genestealers and the like aren't likely to be as effective at calling down the Hive Fleets either. The Tau have pulled off some spectacular feats against the Nids, and if we take the Cain novels' implication of an Imperial-Tau alliance succeeding against the fleets, we already have a pretty good idea that the Nids don't chow down the Empire.

Chaos: The Tau are of no interest to Chaos, as they have little to no souls in the warp. Humans and other psychic capable races don't have the freedom or contact with the Tau to be a serious threat. The majority of humans live under a highly efficient police state. The Nicassar are too small in number and live in space away from Tau worlds. Chaos aren't a threat to the Tau in existential terms, bar them dropping the rest of the galaxy into the Warp or some nonsense.

3. Orks: The one threat in the galaxy that the Tau are not naive about is the Orks. They were the first hostile race encountered by the Tau. Bar a seriously huge Waagh encompassing much of the eastern sectors (which the Imperium would intervene to prevent), the Orks are not an existential threat to the Tau. They have fought the Orks since first venturing to the stars, if there is one threat they absolutely won't fall for, it is probably the Orks.

4. Necrons: the only actual existential threat to the Tau that is immediate. Who knows how many outer Tau outposts are actually Necron tomb worlds? Enough to cause trouble, certainly. The question of whether or not it is an existential threat depends on how many we're talking about, which sort of dynasties formerly controlled the worlds and the state of their armies in that area. Doesn't strike me as an existential threat on the basis of the small nature of the Empire, but it's the one within the realm of possibility for the medium term.

5. The Imperium: Has far bigger fish to fry, has a bureaucracy that deliberately stifles the sort of action you'd need to crush the Tau completely, and would be perfectly content to ignore the Tau entirely if it wasn't for Imperial prestige being at stake. The Imperium's strategy against the Tau is one of deterrence and detente. The worlds that the Tau take from the Imperium are not particularly valuable bar the latest few. When the Tau take a world, the Imperium's response is to try to take it back as opposed to trying to crush them. There are just too many responsibilities that the Imperium needs to fulfill, and as long as the Tau tiptoe as oppose to charge headlong at Imperial worlds, there will be no need for the Imperium to act: The Tau are simply not a big enough threat for any real effort to be put in to destroy them, yet they are big enough (or rather, advanced enough) to cause any such attack to require resources that would cause vast swathes of the Imperium to fall into enemy hands.

In short, the number of worlds the Tau seize is far smaller than the number the Imperium would lose due to weakening of forces elsewhere. Grand-scale mathematics is why the Imperium is not an existential threat in the short to medium term, simple as. It's not that the Imperium couldn't crush the Tau, it's that the cost would be higher than the gains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quickjager wrote:
No the problem is that you are saying the Tau will cobtinue to expand onto Imperial worlds and the Imperium won't attack because of... a treaty.

At no point did I say that.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

4. Necrons: the only actual existential threat to the Tau that is immediate. Who knows how many outer Tau outposts are actually Necron tomb worlds? Enough to cause trouble, certainly. The question of whether or not it is an existential threat depends on how many we're talking about, which sort of dynasties formerly controlled the worlds and the state of their armies in that area. Doesn't strike me as an existential threat on the basis of the small nature of the Empire, but it's the one within the realm of possibility for the medium term.

... except that the Necrons are mostly on the opposite end of the galaxy. It's not likely they'll start waking up in the east with any more frequency than they are anywhere else... and since very few of them have woken up in the east, it's unlikely they'll pop up much more frequently.

 GreaterGoodIreland wrote:

3. Orks: The one threat in the galaxy that the Tau are not naive about is the Orks. They were the first hostile race encountered by the Tau. Bar a seriously huge Waagh encompassing much of the eastern sectors (which the Imperium would intervene to prevent), the Orks are not an existential threat to the Tau. They have fought the Orks since first venturing to the stars, if there is one threat they absolutely won't fall for, it is probably the Orks.

Mind you, orks have won the war of dakka vs tau as for the current fluff.

Besides, Tau haven't encountered really large-scale WAAAGHS! yet. And unlike tau, orks utilise warp travel, so information and reserves are much faster to arrive.

The reason why tau are more or less protected from orks is their actual weakness compared to other factions and evasive combat doctrine. Orks thrive on conflict. The harder it is to kill the enemy - the more orkses arrive and the tougher they get. From a War of Dakka we can see that tau are not a favorite enemy (orks actually have 1 word for friend and favorite enemy) of the brutal part of the greenskin society. The war style that tau utilise is not something that most orkses like. However, the cunning part adores this stuff. And as we can see, lots of shootas, meks and kommandoes were driven towards the the opportunities opened by the war of dakka. And eventually orkses won that war. They had been hopelessly outmaneuvred and outshot at first, but ork's war tactics naturally adapts and pared with VAST numbers - even for such a mid-tier WAAAAGH! - the tide eventually turned.

So, don't underestimate orks. They've once been dangerously close to killing the Emperor and only Horus's heroic intervention saved him.

The orks didn't win the war of dakka, the tau won. That's why tau still exist.

Other than that, it's pretty much correct. Although considering the state of anarchy that any WAAAGH is always in, tau generally have the advantage on info, it may be slower, but it actually gets their and is used.

Why is everybody so grim? The Imperium will disband and the Tau will either be crushed by mankind, or the Tyranids, or the Orks. any number of things except for a positive step forward. What if emps gets up, looks around and decides maybe NOT ALL XENOS are barbaric and in need of extermination. maybe we do enter into an alliance that allows for major refitting of imperial manufactorums and the vast production power of the Imperium allows for both Empires to effectively combat any and all threats. perhaps the Earth caste after studying the warp and its nature are able to replicate the Necron Pylons that created the Cadian gate and effectively shut off most of the Eye of Terror. What about combing Imperial and Tau knowledge of Bio-weapons and directing this against the Tyranids, Optimism people.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The orks didn't win the war of dakka, the tau won.

The current fluff (ork dex) pretty much states that tau had to withdraw. I'm sure - they'll fight the territory back in the next war (tau dex) but as it is, they've lost for now.

No wonder that tau have problems with attrition wars - especially versus orkses. There's no diminishing qualities vs that. Orks do it all the time when major conflicts arise. They come somewhere en masse, take a chunk of territory, do the crumping, loose a lot but eventually the enemy gets exhausted and withdraws, they claim planets and loot. Than the enemy regroups or organises a reconquest and orks get beaten to come back later and the process starts anew.