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SirLynchMob,
One has to get the Building into Reserves before Web-Way Portal can be applied to it.
As the Reserves Rule is a Mission Rule, and not as Special Rule, your quoted section does not apply...

JinxDragon wrote:
SirLynchMob,
Reserves is not a Special Rule, it is a Mission Rule.

Do you have a point? That statement is not applicable in any way. Fortifications deploy like models in your army, models in your army may be placed in reserves.

sirlynchmob wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
SirLynchMob,
Reserves is not a Special Rule, it is a Mission Rule.

Do you have a point? That statement is not applicable in any way. Fortifications deploy like models in your army, models in your army may be placed in reserves.

Fortifications deploy.

Models who are kept in reserve have not Deployed.

Therefore Fortifications cannot be in reserve.

I have to weigh in on the 'you can' side of this one.

WWP grants a vehicle Deep strike, if the bearer is embarked on it.

Buildings are treated as vehicles for any attacks, effects, special rules or psychic powers unless specifically stated otherwise.

Buildings are units in your army if bought as part of the army.

Placing a unit in Deep Strike Reserve required that the unit has the deepstrike rule and starts the game in reserve

Fortifications taken as part of an army are 'set up with the rest of the army using the same deployment rules as the other models'

Reserves states that you can choose not to deploy a unit, but hold it back for later deployment. There is a clause in event of not being able to deploy a unit, where a unit that cannot move after deployment is destroyed, but the fortification is is not 'unable to be deployed'. It could be deployed, but you opted to hold it back for later deployment instead.

When the unit comes in from Deep Strike reserves it is deployed at that point.


As long as you can then deploy it via the deepstrike successfully i don't see an issue.

Not sure i would actually DO this, but i'm not seeing a block to doing so in the rules, unless there is something i'm missing?

I would like to see any rules backing a claim buildings are treated as a vehicle for any rule. Also can you define the transport capacity for the building as well.

Battlefield terrain section

under Attacking Buildings

'When determining if a building can be targetted by a shooting attack or psychic power, charged and fought in close combat or affected by a special rule, treat the building as a vehicle unless specifically stated otherwise '

Deep Strike is a special rule.


Transport capacity is generally on the building datasheet.

'Building size and Hull Points

Just like a transport Vehicle, bildings have a Transport Capacity and a number of hull points ... '


Building Size Chart

Small - 10 models - hull pts 3
Medium - 20 modesl - hull pts 4
large - 30 models - hull points 5

All right one part down. Now you are saying if I target a unit on a building. Example Shrouding where all freindly units within 6" get shrounded this will include a fortress of redemption if the psyker is on it? Or if I cast invisibility on a unit on same fortification they do as well?
If so I'm thinking perfect timing , invisibility, and shrouding on a fortress. O ya then I can wwp it as well?

The unit and the Building are seperate units.

If there is a power that targets all units in an area (such as a Nova power) then yes, they will also affect the buildings, as they are specified as units.

Buildings can be targeted by any power that can target a vehicle. People on the battlements are targetted as if they are on the upper levels of a ruin, and are seperate from the building itself.

Invisibility targets a single friendly unit. It would not protect the building unless that was the unit you chose as your target, and the building was claimed by your forces. It would protect the building, but not anyone on the battlements.

If the building was an enemy unit (claimed by the opponent) it would be firing snap shots at your invisible unit, as it would be affected in the same way as an enemy vehicle would be.


** edit for caveat**

If your psyker is embarked inside the building , as when embarked on a vehicle, he can't manifest anything but witchfires. He would have to be up on the battlements.

Also the FOR is not a single building, but four connected ones. You could onyl affect one with Invisibility at a time, without multiple castings. something that affected all units within 6'' if you are actually within 6'' of all four buildings (such as if you are standing on the walkway annex) would still work fine.




**** edit to answer your edit ***

Perfect Timing on a fortress is no go - it only affects the psyker, not the building. Invisibility could work on one of the buildings. Shrouding could work also, as long as you are on the battlements.

There you just said it. Seperate units NOT the same. You cannot have it one way for rule X and ignore the same rule you are using to say you can use WWP.

Now does the Archon /unit immediately mishap?
Which is what is defined as a model coming in on top of a freindly model. In this case the building clearly is.

Have you read the WWP rules? I'm assuming not, or you wouldn't have posted your last.

The building counts as a transport Vehicle, on which you are embarked.

WWP states that :

'The model, and any unit it has joined or embarked on has the deep strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserves'

This is the whole point of the debate.

You embark in a building, as a transport vehicle

It is a unit which has been embarked on, and has been granted Deep Strike by being embarked on by the bearer of the WWP.

Yes I have. Also it should be noted all fortification and building data sheets say. Terrain Type not unit.

Nice collection. Doesn't prove you actually read the rule though.

Then why are you arguing that the Archon, his unit and the building have to be the same unit? They don't.

The Archon is embarked in a building that is treated as a vehicle for special rules.

WWP grants the building Deep Strike (and treats it as a vehicle whilst doing do.).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fireraven wrote:
Yes I have. Also it should be noted all fortification and building data sheets say. Terrain Type not unit.

It should also be noted that claimed buildings are UNITS

I quote.

'A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.'

Sirlynchmob,
If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.

Where in the Rules for Deployment do I locate the instructions for putting a Unit into Reserves?
Hint: You don't find them as part of the Standard Deployment Method, they are located in the section detailing Mission Rules....

Ascalam,
For the Building to be targeted by the Web Way Portal it has to be placed into Reserves first, before the Archon can Embark into it. This is why it needs to be shown that Fortifications can be placed into Reserves before all else, for without that important step there is no way to apply Deep Strike or the Web-Way Portal effects to the Building in question. So while Claimed Buildings are Units, no one is denying that, it still needs to be proven that Fortifications become Claimed before Models are placed into Reserves. As we have reference to Rules which trigger between a Unit being Deployed / Placed into Reserve and the Start of the Game itself, it is looking impossible to apply any Claimed Building status to the Fortification until it is already too late for it to be useful.

The reserve rule in mission rules determines whether or not you have to deploy all of your units at the beginning of the match.

If you are playing a mission which allows reserves, you may place any units you wish in reserves.

Fortifications are units.

Preparing reserves

'when deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them in reserve to arrive later.' - The building is following the same deplyment rules for the mission as the other models, in that it is given the option to use the reserves rule or deply directly.

Arriving from reserve

'When reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it..'

Deep strike

'Roll for arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for reserves, and then deploy them as follows...'

Also

'A transport vehicle with Deep Strike (which the building counts as) may deep strike regardless of whether it's passengers have deep strike or not'

There is no requirement to move once deepstriking from reserves, though a building will likely have a hard time finding a place to land, even with a WWP

Fortifications are not by default Models so they can not be Units, this is why they needed a Rule to grant them access to the Deployment Rules in the first place....

The only type of Fortifications which are Units are all Claimed Buildings, for they have a Rule which literally states 'it is a Unit.'
Show me where it states that Buildings are claimed prior to Reserves / Deployment....

So now I can put multiple units on my fortress and deep strike them all in with it. Yeehaa I can have fun with that one.

Honestly though, I do wonder about this:
Line is quoted showing Fortifications have access to Deployment Rules
Line is re-quoted, highlighting Deployment Rules for Reserves are a Mission Rule
Counter argument is that Fortifications didn't need the quoted line to gain access to Reserves as they are Units....

Can people not realize the flaw of trying to say that Fortifications are already Units, and so gain access to Reserve Rules anyway, without realizing it null and voids not just their previous argument but the whole requirement of Count As Rules to begin with?
It makes no sense for there to be pages of 'counts as a Model' Rule's that exist surrounding Fortifications if they where already Models....

JinxDragon wrote:
Sirlynchmob,
If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.

Where in the Rules for Deployment do I locate the instructions for putting a Unit into Reserves?
Hint: You don't find them as part of the Standard Deployment Method, they are located in the section detailing Mission Rules....

Ascalam,
For the Building to be targeted by the Web Way Portal it has to be placed into Reserves first, before the Archon can Embark into it. This is why it needs to be shown that Fortifications can be placed into Reserves before all else, for without that important step there is no way to apply Deep Strike or the Web-Way Portal effects to the Building in question. So while Claimed Buildings are Units, no one is denying that, it still needs to be proven that Fortifications become Claimed before Models are placed into Reserves. As we have reference to Rules which trigger between a Unit being Deployed / Placed into Reserve and the Start of the Game itself, it is looking impossible to apply any Claimed Building status to the Fortification until it is already too late for it to be useful.

Fireraven seems to be trying to.

I see the Reserve rule as a rule granting additional deployment options to your army, which you can use in any mission that allows Reserves.

The mission grants the baility to deploy or to enter reserves. Not arguing there. What i will have to disagree on is that this precludes the building being able to use these deployment rules like any other unit in the army. There is little to quote on either side, ruleswise, on whether the Mission Rules are a seperate category defining the deployment options, or whether they replace them. We may have to agree to disagree on that point, until GW feels like dropping us a randomly picked answer.

I see it as follows: The fortification, if taken as part of the army, is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.

Under Deployment

Reserves states that you can choose not to deploy some of your units, keeping them in Reserves to arrive late. As buildings are units you can opt not to deploy them, and put them in reserve per the rule. The rule specifying that they are affected by special rules (but not listing Mission Rules) is the rule that defines that you treat them as vehicles for most effects. The Reserves rule does not make this distinction. All it requires is that the Unit be part of your army, which the building is.

quote : ' When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them in reserve to arrive later' - this doesn't preclude buildings as far as i can see. The following sentence dealing with units that are impossible to deploy being put in reserve, or destroyed if unable to move, is not relevant because you could have deployed the building but chose not to, rather than it being impossible to do so.

If this is so, then the building (as a unit) could enter reserves, and deep strike out of them.

The only problem is that GW is studiously adverse to writing clear rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fireraven wrote:
So now I can put multiple units on my fortress and deep strike them all in with it. Yeehaa I can have fun with that one.

You would need 4 webway portals. FOR is FOUR buildings, not one. You would also need all 4 to be available on the same turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Fortifications are not by default Models so they can not be Units, this is why they needed a Rule to grant them access to the Deployment Rules in the first place....

The only type of Fortifications which are Units are all Claimed Buildings, for they have a Rule which literally states 'it is a Unit.'
Show me where it states that Buildings are claimed prior to Reserves / Deployment....

'At the start of the game , all buildings that were taken as part of a player's army are 'claimed' by the owning player'

Show me a rule that they are NOT claimed prior to reserves/deployment?

As to what they mean by the start of the game, that can be argued both ways. The start of the game, for me, is when you roll off to see which deployment zone you have, which is prior to deciding what goes into reserve etc.

I doubt you will concur though, so this will go around in circles

Yep 1 multi part building. But I was thinking to small. I think all three Hq's that have WWP. And the macro gun and the vortex missle strong points. Forget fort. Lets go balls deep D Weapons. Then ally some Eldar for the ignore cover and shroud on the buildings and invisibility for the units embarked.

Multipart buildings are still multiple buildings for the sake of WWP, as you can't be embarked on all 4 at the same time. Could be hilarious if only 2 come in on a turn...

Aquila are 2 buildings IIRC.

I'm arguing for RAW curiousity here. I have no intention of actually trying it, but the rules may or may not allow it, depending on how you define the rules involved.

My guess is that GW will say no-go if they ever get around to it

Yep but ill just put them on the gun/missle buildings only. So that part only will materialize. The best part.

Does bring up the question whether you can partially materialise the building. Technically, you could

Could he interesting ha ing a FOR deepstruck in four separate locations, controlled by the remote fire link in one building...

Just a quick two before bed:

If your Rule Support relies on 'there is no rule preventing it' then you have lost every Game because there is no Rule preventing me from declaring that all your past games are null and void. The point of the previous statement is that we are debating a gaming system based around Written Rules, which are designed around the concept of requiring permission to perform X before being able to perform X. If a player wishes to do X, in this case claim a Building is 'Claimed' prior to the Start of the Game, then it is the requirement of that player to provide a Rule granting them permission to do so. So I am not required to prove your negative, you are required to prove that a building is Claimed prior to the point in the timeline the Rules actually state they are claimed.

The reason the Claimed Building Rule has not swayed me is there is ample evidence that Reserve's happen before Buildings are granted Unit Status
The reason the Fortification Deployment Rule has not swayed me is because there is ample evidence that Reserves are not a Deployment Rule

Bonus point that I keep getting ignored over every time the whole 'Fortifications are Not a Unit' debate comes up:
The quoted Rule does happen to exists for a reason: To grant Fortifications access to Deployment, something they must not of had access to prior. This is not the only Rule of it's type either, buildings have no less then three pages worth of 'count as' Rules. All of these Rules are designed simply to ensure Buildings behave identically to an Enemy Model for 90% of the Rules in the book. There would be no point to these Rules if Buildings where already Units, and we wouldn't need three pages of 'count as Rules' as some sort of twisted reminder either, so I have to conclude that their very existence is evidence of something. That leads me to the conclusion that Fortifications are simply not Models to begin with.

If you do not accept that reason for this Rules existence, why then would this Rule and pages like it even exist in the first place?

p.132 "which ever method you use models" (not units) "must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve."

the building does not have to be a unit before "the start of the game" whenever that is to be put in reserve right?

I think we mostly agree on that now.

I don't think you can deep strike a multipart building though would be cool.

To be honest I do not care anymore. If it ever comes up I know what my statement will be. And if the person does not like it they can pack there models and leave. I dought this will ever come up. Common sense will win over in the end. I would want you to go to any GT and do this. I wish you luck.

So, as summary, nobody has a valid argument against the WWP transporting buildings ?

And Fireraven, this is YMDC, not how you would like the rules to be. Common sense says you can't take buildings as part of your army either, but it's there.

Sunhero wrote:
p.132 "which ever method you use models" (not units) "must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve."

the building does not have to be a unit before "the start of the game" whenever that is to be put in reserve right?

I think we mostly agree on that now.

I don't think you can deep strike a multipart building though would be cool.

Maybe the digital version has different wording, but mine reads Units, not models.

Digital version page numbers are all fethed up, as all 3 books are one book, but i assume you are looking at this

Preparing reserves

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve'

'At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move. '

The rules refer to them as Units, not models. Unless you are looking at a different part of the book than i am?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, i'm going to lay down my logic chain here and if someone could tell me if i'm being logically inconsistent? Not your-interpretation-of the rules inconsistent, but consistent within my interpretation.

Then feel free to rip me to shreds rules-wise

'Before the game begins

During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘before the game begins’. Examples of such events include generating Warlord Traits and psychic powers. These are always resolved before the armies deploy for battle.'

Rolling for deployment zone and who deploys first could either be a before the game begins thing or a At the start of the game thing. For simplicity let's lump them in with the above.

The start of the game must therefore be at the beginning of the Deployment step, as Before the Game Begins is always before deployment.

At the start of the game, all claimed buildings are units in your army.

Units can be placed in reserve if the mission allows it. The claimed buildings are units, and so can be put in reserve at this step.

For Deep striking them back out it does require a Model to be placed from the unit. Normally a sticking point as buildings aren't models, but terrain.

However, they are treated as vehicles for special rules, which Deep Strike is.

They are therefore model type Vehicle while deep-striking. They have a statline (BS, AV etc) so the usual argument that they are not models does not apply for deep striking them.

1/. Is this logically consistent.

2/. Is there any rule stating that buildings have to be deployed, as opposed to being put in reserves voluntarily? They cannot be involuntarily put in reserves, as they will be destroyed, but that clause doesn't cover a willing decision to do so.

3/. Is there any rule stating that you cannot deep strike an immobile transport vehicle?

Ascalam,
What about Rules which talk about a period of time after putting a Unit into Reserves but before the Start of Game, such as Aerial Support?


Sunhero,
Fortifications are not Units or Models by default, if you want to play that they are prepare for me to do things like:
Join a Independent Character to a defense line so all wounds are allocated to a 'model' without a Wound Characteristic
Move a physical wall in front of my troops to block line of sight, seeing I have a lot of indirect fire
Demand that you stay 1 inch away from all of my buildings and fortifications, including the ones you are meant to be able to shoot back at me by being in base contact with
and so forth....

@Ascalam no i think you are looking at a different section its just after it gives the three different deployment methods and above a red box outlining standard deployment method.
beginning of the third paragraph under DEPLOYMENT heading.

I think you have it nailed down even with out that paragraph to support you argument




I think we can mostly agree now that it is allowed but its pretty crazy

would love to see some custom webway bastions and bunkers could be very cool and very uncool with just the gw terrain

Sunhero wrote:
I think we can mostly agree now that it is allowed but its pretty crazy

No, not at all allowed, because of the reasons I posted earlier.