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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Once we have ONE truly successful gem of a game with a female, or really minority character, we'll see more pop up. And I mean, successful on the COD level, because as we've seen with Tomb Raider, she didn't really spawn a huge offspring of other female lead games.

Isn't that setting the bar just a *tad* high? After all, the Tomb Raider franchise is still one of the highest-grossing video game series of all time, but still has only a third of COD's sales. Even the Halo franchise has not sold as many units as the COD franchise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and the cast of COD is more Whitey McWhiteBoy.

Aye, and that's the logic of a free market. There's no reason to cater to a minority if it doesn't equal to a higher profit.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Once we have ONE truly successful gem of a game with a female, or really minority character, we'll see more pop up. And I mean, successful on the COD level, because as we've seen with Tomb Raider, she didn't really spawn a huge offspring of other female lead games.

Isn't that setting the bar just a *tad* high? After all, the Tomb Raider franchise is still one of the highest-grossing video game series of all time, but still has only a third of COD's sales. Even the Halo franchise has not sold as many units as the COD franchise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and the cast of COD is more Whitey McWhiteBoy.

I suppose I should have elaborated some, I don't necessarily mean success on the same monetary level as CoD. As you point out, Tomb Raider is a serious video game Icon. But, as games with multiplayer, like CoD are the "thing" now, we sort of do need a COD killer type of game with a good female lead character.... I cant tell you how happy I'd be if Half Life 3 didn't feature Gordon Freeman, but rather the niece you meet in HL2 (I forget her name), but is still a badass with a crowbar and serious sci-fi guns.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Aye, and that's the logic of a free market. There's no reason to cater to a minority if it doesn't equal to a higher profit.

To mention a "free market system" in this context does you no service, because there has not been a game like CoD featuring predominantly-female or predominantly-minority characters, and a market without competition is entirely the opposite of a free-market system. HALO does not feature minorities as the main protagonist, and the underlying story-arc of the first 2 games was entirely discarded for every entry in the series that followed.

I suppose I should have elaborated some, I don't necessarily mean success on the same monetary level as CoD. As you point out, Tomb Raider is a serious video game Icon. But, as games with multiplayer, like CoD are the "thing" now, we sort of do need a COD killer type of game with a good female lead character.... I cant tell you how happy I'd be if Half Life 3 didn't feature Gordon Freeman, but rather the niece you meet in HL2 (I forget her name), but is still a badass with a crowbar and serious sci-fi guns.

Then why, when Tomb Raider was the #1 selling video game, before COD existed at all, did we not see the results you claimed would happen?

Because Laura Croft, as a character, is a male fantasy. She's not designed, or intended, to represent or appeal to the female gamer, with the *possible* exception of the latest entry in the series (although, even in that game, there's a barely-escaped rape...).

 Psienesis wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Aye, and that's the logic of a free market. There's no reason to cater to a minority if it doesn't equal to a higher profit.

To mention a "free market system" in this context does you no service, because there has not been a game like CoD featuring predominantly-female or predominantly-minority characters, and a market without competition is entirely the opposite of a free-market system. HALO does not feature minorities as the main protagonist, and the underlying story-arc of the first 2 games was entirely discarded for every entry in the series that followed.

No, that's exactly what it is. A market that does not ALLOW for a free market isn't a free market. The market, however, is free and open to anyone with anything. If you want a minority or anything to be represented in games, make a good game and it will sell well and thus inspire others to do the same. The latest prominent game with a female protagonist was Tomb Raider. Flopped and did not meet expectations. Where the girl gamer market at? :(

 Psienesis wrote:
...and the cast of COD is more Whitey McWhiteBoy.

Could you stop this? Could you just say white? Or at least extend the cute naming convention to other skin colors? I'd love to see what you do with brown or yellow.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Could you stop this? Could you just say white? Or at least extend the cute naming convention to other skin colors? I'd love to see what you do with brown or yellow.

That would lead to a Dakka ban

It's totally ok and accepted to discriminate whites. Privilege etc.

Yeah, yeah. I know.


Still, hypocrisy and double standards are disgusting to me. I know we are all guilty of succumbing to those failings at one time or another, but trying to maintain a base line of respect for all parties involved int his discussion should be manageable, no?

I am disgusted by the term "privilege". It's abused in so many ways, it's not even funny. It's often used to shut people down e.g. when white people talk about racism and are shut down by referring to their "privilege". Not to mention that this is racism at its best.

Definitely agree, but I don't want to derail the conversation any more than I have. Back to the topic at hand: male representation in video games!

Topic in a nutshell:

Hurrdurr I'm a buff guy shooting the bad guy.

The two threads shouldn't be split, though. Most if not all "gender" problems aren't related to gender, but to poor and lazy writing.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's totally ok and accepted to discriminate whites.

If “Whitey McWhiteBoy” is the worst discrimination you had to face, you are pretty lucky.
Just to keep things in context.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's totally ok and accepted to discriminate whites.

If “Whitey McWhiteBoy” is the worst discrimination you had to face, you are pretty lucky.

Being a white man with a top tier income makes me part of three socially accepted discrimination groups.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's totally ok and accepted to discriminate whites.

If “Whitey McWhiteBoy” is the worst discrimination you had to face, you are pretty lucky.
Just to keep things in context.

So a little discrimination is okay?

Look. If you want to portray yourself as an open-minded, egalitarian person you can't besmirch one group in your campaign to help other groups. Don't be hypocritical with your terminology, because if it is okay to refer to white males as "Whitey McWhiteBoy" then it should be okay to refer to brown males as "Brownie El-Brown-brown", or yellow skinned males as "Yellow with a side of rice", right? And lets not get into the fun terms we could throw around for females of particular skin colors because damn, that would open up so many more options!

If it isn't okay to make ridiculous euphemisms for black, brown and yellow people then it certainly isn't okay to make those terms for white people.

ON TOPIC: It would be nice to see a more average male figure as the heroin, but even then you usually get armor or something that ends up making them look badass, so does it really matter how they start out?

 Chris_P wrote:
ON TOPIC: It would be nice to see a more average male figure as the heroin, but even then you usually get armor or something that ends up making them look badass, so does it really matter how they start out?

Do you think that the six guys in the Left 4 Dead series represented average, if unique, people?

I think the series did fairly well in its representation of variety, moreso than most other game series at least.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Being a white man with a top tier income makes me part of three socially accepted discrimination groups.

Okay. So, which acts of discrimination did you suffer from because it was socially accepted? And how much were you hurt as a result?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So a little discrimination is okay?

A “little” discrimination is certainly better than much more meaningful discrimination, sure.


Just for reference, I have one Iranian friend whose worst anecdote about racism since she came in France was how some guy, upon learning that she was Iranian, started to complain about how some Iranian roommate of old gave him some disease (cannot remember which one). This also falls into the “I am pretty happy that is the worst discrimination you had to face ”. Well, that is not the worst discrimination she had to face because, huh, she kind of was discriminated by the state for being a woman quite a bit until she left Iran, but you get what I mean, right? Just to say, that is not something I would only say about white European people.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So a little discrimination is okay?

A “little” discrimination is certainly better than much more meaningful discrimination, sure.

The severity of the discrimination is irrelevant if you are advocating against discrimination in the first place.

If I advocate for nonviolence, and then stab you in the shoulder with a pen knife, that action isn't justified because I didn't shoot you with a pistol. It is still a violent act and I am suddenly a huge hypocrite for committing said act.

Do you honestly not see the problem with using the term "Whitey McWhiteBoy" or are you just being contrary to be contrary?

Ugh, that topic was certainly derailed.

 Melissia wrote:
Ugh, that topic was certainly derailed.

Just pointing out the casual racism in here, that's all.

Let's not get into an argument about discrimination and if it is offensive. That would be pointless and would go nowhere. He deemed it offensive, and he is allowed to ask the person to change it. I don't think it is vital to Psienesis point.

Anyone play the escapest? (You should it's a RPG of crazy levels of openness.) It's a game about prison and one of the little details I like about it is that it doesn't have a drop the sop joke. I expected the exact opposite. As a whole I think we are still at the stage were male rape is handled poorly. Many times as a joke.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
...and the cast of COD is more Whitey McWhiteBoy.

Could you stop this? Could you just say white? Or at least extend the cute naming convention to other skin colors? I'd love to see what you do with brown or yellow.

Once we have "generic Black protagonist" or "generic Asian protagonist", I will do so. Unfortunately, they don't exist.

 Psienesis wrote:

Once we have "generic Black protagonist" or "generic Asian protagonist", I will do so. Unfortunately, they don't exist.

Saints Row... They do exist, so... as you said, you can stop with the shenanigans

Saint's Row allows total character customization; the "character", such as it is, is not a Black character, although you can choose to make them such.

Separate this from, say, the Witcher, where your character, Geralt of Rivia, has a pre-defined, unchangeable appearance. Or the characters in CoD or GoW. Or in the first 2 entries of the Doom franchise (all white, all blonde).

Outside of the L4D franchise and Tell-Tale's "The Walking Dead", the only applicable labels would be either "Token McTokenson" or "Stereotype O'DasRacist" (I'm looking at you, Square Enix; you, too, Team Ninja).

Television shows have gotten *much* better at having characters of miscellaneous minorities not be defined by being that minority, and by not playing to racist stereotypes of that minority. They've gotten away from (and often subvert/ridicule) the trope of "Oh, you're Asian! You must be smart!" or "Oh.... you're Black. Don't rob me!"... though it has taken a long, long time to get to this point. White people on TV, of course, run the gamut, and pretty much always have. For every Homer Simpson there's a Doctor Who or Doctor House. For every King of Queens there's a Mad Men.

 Psienesis wrote:
Saint's Row allows total character customization; the "character", such as it is, is not a Black character, although you can choose to make them such.

Separate this from, say, the Witcher, where your character, Geralt of Rivia, has a pre-defined, unchangeable appearance. Or the characters in CoD or GoW. Or in the first 2 entries of the Doom franchise (all white, all blonde).

Outside of the L4D franchise and Tell-Tale's "The Walking Dead", the only applicable labels would be either "Token McTokenson" or "Stereotype O'DasRacist" (I'm looking at you, Square Enix; you, too, Team Ninja).

Television shows have gotten *much* better at having characters of miscellaneous minorities not be defined by being that minority, and by not playing to racist stereotypes of that minority. They've gotten away from (and often subvert/ridicule) the trope of "Oh, you're Asian! You must be smart!" or "Oh.... you're Black. Don't rob me!"... though it has taken a long, long time to get to this point. White people on TV, of course, run the gamut, and pretty much always have. For every Homer Simpson there's a Doctor Who or Doctor House. For every King of Queens there's a Mad Men.

You can't really blame Doom for that, since it was the first FPS shooter ever made and was literally MADE by White Dudes trying to have a power fantasy for themselves. The fact that every FPS after it being the same is whats sad.


Also, GoW in total didn't really have any stereotypes (As long as we are counting the EU). The Cole Train in the first two games was a horrible stereotype, I will be the first to admit it, but in the third game and in all the books he was easily my favorite character. Also, considering how much it makes Dom and Marcus out to be brothers (Hispanic and White, respectively), it's not exactly making racist remarks there.

Dizzy, on the other hand......

Honestly, much like with the female case, I don't really care. My main case with a game is gameplay, nothing else. I couldn't give less of a damn about the main character and whether they're bland or not- I largely avoid story-based games centralizing on a campaign for both lacking replayability and also just being downright horrible stories as gaming is still a young medium. The only game I'd even really consider as exceptional in the story department is the Last of Us and Alien Isolation... and that's it really.

The only time I have a problem with the character model and skinning is when the model is either downright pornographic or racist. I prefer my pornography separate from my gaming experience, and playing a game where a character is wearing black-face (or something similar) leaves both a bad taste in my mouth and a desire to sock the dev in the jaw.

But otherwise, I just really don't care. If I pop in Halo, I'm neither noticing how boring Chief is as a character or ogling Cortana, I'm there corralling some friends into a campaign or custom game to have a nice good 'ol match of Fiesta Slayer.

The problem isn't a lack of diversity in games like Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty. You could slap a woman in there or a lanky male protagonist- the problem is the writing is downright horrible and the story is snore-worthy, on top of mediocre gameplay. I'd much rather pop in the Godfather and enjoy a quality, master-crafted story then play through a fairly passable title that can't stand up to even stories in comic books.


Hopefully though, give it two decades or so, and single-player games with stories on par of the Last of Us or the Alien Isolation experience will be far more common.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I am disgusted by the term "privilege". It's abused in so many ways, it's not even funny. It's often used to shut people down e.g. when white people talk about racism and are shut down by referring to their "privilege". Not to mention that this is racism at its best.

Not to jump into this subject, but you live in Germany. Depending on where you live in the 'States, being white is a massive boon for your overall life, as you won't have to deal with corrupt racist cops, missed job opportunities (although that carries over for males as well, as white males are more likely to be hired then white females), etc.

There is legitimate white racism, but at least in the 'States, it's a lot less of a problem compared to racism against blacks or arabs especially.

StarTrotter wrote:As per Gamergate, I really don't want to hop into it besides saying I don't quite agree with Sigvatr as per #Gamergate. Overall I think the most positive things to come out of it have been some fundraisers including the female developer support, revealing that there was a massive number of game "journalists" that made a group to swap around ideas and honestly plan out things unethically, the change in the escapists rules, and kotaku and polygon's changes.

If you honestly believe that this is what Gamergate did, then I'm not surprised that you didn't perceive a pushback anywhere.

Sigvatr wrote:You could literally create a game completely anonymous and people wouldn't care at all as long as the product is good.

Ironically, anonymity would be the ideal way to make a game, as apparently humans are such a flawed species that they allow their judgement to be clouded even by miniscule details such as someone's first name, because they assume a person is either of a specific ethnicity or gender.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/02/jose-joe-job-discrimination_n_5753880.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2364215/Man-named-Kim-tries-fails-job-months---adds-Mr-resume-offers-begin-pouring-in.html

Ensis Ferrae wrote:Did a google search for video game credits, and this site came up near the top. It's for Uncharted 3. The Vice President is someone named Isabel. 1 of 3 "Senior Environment Artists" are women, 2 of the "Environment Artists" women.
Hell, the url is for an article specifically recognizing the artists and people involved who are Filipino, which, last I checked, Filipinos are not white.

If we, or rather, the gaming industry, follows the standard hiring laws we will continue to see these numbers increase. As you yourself said, women and people of color are now a fairly significant demographic within the video gaming, and gaming industry. Another generation from now, and I will not be surprised in the least to see more and more women in the credits to games.

Just having women or - to get back to the original topic of the thread - other ethnicities in the credits does not automatically dictate a change. I'm not sure how much experience you have with how jobs are awarded, especially in the games industry, but just like in politics an important ability is to "play ball". Someone who is "being difficult" by pushing what will ultimately be perceived as a personal agenda specifically because that person is not part of the status quo themselves can easily manoeuver themselves into a corner.

Most people want to get along with their colleagues, so heated debates about controversial issues are generally avoided, which is why it takes such a long time for things to change. Opinions diverging from the company line essentially have to "infiltrate" a studio in the form of slight preferences rather than political agendas, and ideally pushed by someone who would not be regarded as doing so just out of their own situation, thus slowly changing the group consensus over a scope of years or decades. Nobody wants a Nagging Nancy in their team, especially not with the current cultural climate where it's apparently widely considered a bad thing to advocate social equality, if we believe the internet (individual dakkanauts in this very thread included).

tl;dr: Just because you have a Fillipino artist doesn't change squat about what he gets told to draw.

Psienesis wrote:Television shows have gotten *much* better at having characters of miscellaneous minorities not be defined by being that minority, and by not playing to racist stereotypes of that minority. They've gotten away from (and often subvert/ridicule) the trope of "Oh, you're Asian! You must be smart!" or "Oh.... you're Black. Don't rob me!"... though it has taken a long, long time to get to this point.

Agreed. I think this will ultimately happen to games as well, as part of "growing up" into a more mature medium.

Wyzilla wrote:Not to jump into this subject, but you live in Germany. Depending on where you live in the 'States, being white is a massive boon for your overall life, as you won't have to deal with corrupt racist cops, missed job opportunities (although that carries over for males as well, as white males are more likely to be hired then white females), etc.

As a former German, let me assure you that these issues exist there as well (just against different groups, including white males from socially disadvantaged families, up to and including a bias based on first names that have nothing to do with gender or ethnicity, but attached stereotypes). There's just a lot of Germans who don't like to acknowledge this (which kind of ties into this very thread; perhaps it really is just all about the ability to "put yourself into their shoes" that has us form such conflicting opinions on topics such as these).

 Lynata wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:Not to jump into this subject, but you live in Germany. Depending on where you live in the 'States, being white is a massive boon for your overall life, as you won't have to deal with corrupt racist cops, missed job opportunities (although that carries over for males as well, as white males are more likely to be hired then white females), etc.

As a former German, let me assure you that these issues exist there as well (just against different groups, including white males from socially disadvantaged families, up to and including a bias based on first names that have nothing to do with gender or ethnicity, but attached stereotypes). There's just a lot of Germans who don't like to acknowledge this (which kind of ties into this very thread; perhaps it really is just all about the ability to "put yourself into their shoes" that has us form such conflicting opinions on topics such as these).

Wyzilla wrote:Well hopefully that at least doesn't lead to murder.

Not the names, but every now and then there are some very messy "incidents" with immigrants. At least it has by now been about two decades since the last block was burned down and the police did nothing but watch whilst the firemen pleaded with them to secure a path so they might be able to help the Africans trapped inside.

Nowadays we just have smaller stuff like individuals being hunted through the streets by a small mob of youngsters or people getting beaten in the subway, and even that only seems to happen once every year or so. I'm sure it's nothing compared to some areas in the US.
It only gets into the major news particularly because it is thankfully a rare occurrence that shakes up the nation every time it happens. It's also a very unpleasant reminder of my home country's past, though, and I consider it to be important proof for why we should not forget history, regardless of how some Germans are sick of hearing about WW2. Arguably, some haven't heard enough yet.

Not that Germany is alone with these (largely economically-based) problems.

Wyzilla wrote:I can't really imagine hatred for the name of somebody though.

Oh, yes, it's not hatred - just stigmatisation and a high likelihood of being disadvantaged.
I'm not sure if this is an apt comparison, but perhaps you could say having the first name of "Kevin" could be compared to growing up in Harlem and having that show up in your CV?