Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You can probably guess my opinion on the grey knights "mono build"

I've had a few games now against the new gk book and can say personally its kinda boring going against the same build again and again. I've found I've had to take aditional plasma to even stand against dred knight spam aswell as first turn deepstrike.

I was wondering how others feel going against the mono build? I know its strong but do you guys get bored of seeing or playing against the same thing time and time again and all you hear back is that they have to play it that way or they'll lose?

Thats what happens when GW strips off half of an army's codex units and adds zero new ones.

With the nerf to Psycannons, GK "Devastators", aka Purgators lack any kind of effective loadout and their longest range weapon remains fairly useless with a max range of 24".

Purifiers cant deepstrike and thus lack an effective delivery system unless they take SW pods.

PAGKs are unnecessary as you can take termies as troops who can do all the things PAGKs can do, and then some more.

Interceptors IMO are the only effective PAGK variant.

And nobody asked GW to make the NDK even stronger. But GW did, so it's a small consolation prize for stripping our codex away to bare minimum.

And again, nobody asked GW to make ML3 Librarians *that* cheap, but GW did, while not boosting the other HQs in any way, so they dominate.

I dont see how the turn 1 deepstrike is overpowered in any way. Dark Angels Deathwing have been doing it since Fall 2012, and they also get to deepstrike half their guys without even needing to roll for DS, and on top of that also count all their ranged weapons as twin-linked the turn they DS. As of all that wasnt enough, their troops still have objective secured, which our Nemesis Strikeforce detachment lacks. Yet nobody's complaining about that.

Not really? there are plenty of ways the army can be played differently. You dont need to spam dk, could easily use a wider range of units. Im sure de didnt get any new models? Or if they did i missed them as i dont go against them.

But the argument that the army didnt get any new units is the reason for an identical army build world wide (by as far as i can tell looking in the army section) is laughable to say the least


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You focus too much on what you dont have yet miss out what you do have


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, my topic isnt to discuss how gk players think they didnt get any love (even though the codex isnt half as bad as its made out but i digress). The topic was about how boring it is to go against a Monobuild built around dk spam, people are quick to jump on wave serpant spam being broken. And please dont reply again saying mono build or we lost this this this this this this and this, it gets boring after a while

word on the street is most events allow 2 sources, you could easily do NSF+Inq detachment and have pretty much the same codex as before but with less expensive units with more upgrades...

or we can pretend the game is just one source and cry.

I dont see how the turn 1 deepstrike is overpowered in any way. Dark Angels Deathwing have been doing it since Fall 2012, and they also get to deepstrike half their guys without even needing to roll for DS, and on top of that also count all their ranged weapons as twin-linked the turn they DS. As of all that wasnt enough, their troops still have objective secured, which our Nemesis Strikeforce detachment lacks. Yet nobody's complaining about that.

 total0 wrote:
And please dont reply again saying mono build or we lost this this this this this this and this, it gets boring after a while

No, I just found your complaining about lack of diversity from a codex that has 17 units (7 of which are HQ/LoW) silly, that's all. Comparatively the SM codex has 42 units, 16 of which are HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
word on the street is most events allow 2 sources, you could easily do NSF+Inq detachment and have pretty much the same codex as before but with less expensive units with more upgrades...

It'll get more complicated when you had an Assassin and an Inq + Retinue in your armylist and now each of these is from a different detachment.

17 options are enough, you are the one restricting yourself to 1 or 2 units instead of using them to complement each other. I can see after eldar and tau and all the other dex's that are complained about, the dk still being spammed

You have that with most of the armies. The 'uber net list" that is the maximum combination that math hammerers say will win every game and people use it.

Just face the mono DS list with a decent list that allows you to cuddle in a corner and bubble wrap. Let him start, even if you win. Turn 1 DS suddenly gets pretty bad if all of his expensive units can only flame cheap cultists/guards/whatever for 4 pts each kill. Next turn it is fire at will and assault.

Also very tough for GK: null deployment. If there is nothing to shoot at in the first turn he's gonna be at a big disadvantage.

Once someone lost enough to a player able enough to counter monoculture spam he'll probably realize that he should play a bit more diverse.

Maybe you need to make a bit of effort in the selection process of your opponents. I'm assuming that you have access to opponents that aren't GK dreadnight spam, so try and play a wider variety.

You could:
Ask the player to field a list that wasn't DK spam

Refuse to play that list/person - perfectly reasonable as it won't be a fun game for you if you're bored of that build

Tailor your list to be a hard counter to DK spam which may discourage them from always using it

Ask to play a 4-way or 3-way game to make it more varied and more interesting when your opponent fields DK spam

Man the feth up and let others play how they please

When people say they don't like GK monobuilds they do understand that everything outside of it that is not ally kind of a sucks or is very overcosted. The librarian isn't cheap, he just isn't overcosted like every other GK HQ in the book, If dreads or LR or anything else was a good support unit, then some people would have taken them. But they are not so people take the NDKS.

Right now the difference between one GK army and another is the question, if it runs tigurius with a centstar or SW ally to get FA drop pods.

 total0 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, my topic isnt to discuss how gk players think they didnt get any love (even though the codex isnt half as bad as its made out but i digress). The topic was about how boring it is to go against a Monobuild built around dk spam, people are quick to jump on wave serpant spam being broken. And please dont reply again saying mono build or we lost this this this this this this and this, it gets boring after a while

I've got to agree. I've played against GKs a few times and the lists are essentially the same. When I told one guy that I was playing Tau, he asked if I was playing Riptide spam, which I wasn't, but I was using one. It turns out that he was using three Dreadknights but viewed that as okay.

We played Maelstrom (like I always suggest) and he was destroying me. His incinerators destroyed most of my FW, and there were way too many targets for my one Crisis suit squad (other than the Riptide, the only plasma in my army) to take out. After turn 1, I started to get more points and stuff, if it were kill points, he definitely would have won, but I got lucky with my cards.

After the game, he told me that I only won because my army was OP and he can't wait for them to get nerfed, and because his army was really weak. I was shocked at how butthurt he was to be honest.

See the difference is that you can replace a riptide with a trio of broadsides or some crissis suits. A GK players doesn't realy have an options to replace the NKDs, and it doesn't just stop with the NDKs. It is the same with his troops, he can take terminators and that is it.

Now tau were nerfed by 7th ed, that is true. But imagine that for the next two years you would have play with 4 type of models, if you wanted to limit yourself to your codex. How fun would that be? And then your army played at its more optimal still loses when it opponent gets a bit lucky. I would feel as If I wasted my money, if that happened a few times.

Makumba wrote:
See the difference is that you can replace a riptide with a trio of broadsides or some crissis suits. A GK players doesn't realy have an options to replace the NKDs, and it doesn't just stop with the NDKs. It is the same with his troops, he can take terminators and that is it.

Now tau were nerfed by 7th ed, that is true. But imagine that for the next two years you would have play with 4 type of models, if you wanted to limit yourself to your codex. How fun would that be? And then your army played at its more optimal still loses when it opponent gets a bit lucky. I would feel as If I wasted my money, if that happened a few times.

The real problem is that too many people are only ever interested in balls-to-the-walls curbstomping.
Try something other than foaming at the mouth "Tournament" grand standing and suddenly you're spoiled for options...

Strike Squads are fine. Yes they're not the 110% most optimised unit, but they work and can open up a brand new can of tactics by providing things such as a cheap obsec camper, Razorback support, etc...

Makumba wrote:
See the difference is that you can replace a riptide with a trio of broadsides or some crissis suits. A GK players doesn't realy have an options to replace the NKDs, and it doesn't just stop with the NDKs. It is the same with his troops, he can take terminators and that is it.

Now tau were nerfed by 7th ed, that is true. But imagine that for the next two years you would have play with 4 type of models, if you wanted to limit yourself to your codex. How fun would that be? And then your army played at its more optimal still loses when it opponent gets a bit lucky. I would feel as If I wasted my money, if that happened a few times.

What? A competitive Tau force is made up of Crisis suits, Riptides and Broadsides; that's three units. You don't have to play competitively you know, there is such thing as taking units you like, for example I take Kroot squads WITHOUT sniper ammo, just 'cuz I like Kroot.

SGTPozy wrote:

Makumba wrote:
See the difference is that you can replace a riptide with a trio of broadsides or some crissis suits. A GK players doesn't realy have an options to replace the NKDs, and it doesn't just stop with the NDKs. It is the same with his troops, he can take terminators and that is it.

Now tau were nerfed by 7th ed, that is true. But imagine that for the next two years you would have play with 4 type of models, if you wanted to limit yourself to your codex. How fun would that be? And then your army played at its more optimal still loses when it opponent gets a bit lucky. I would feel as If I wasted my money, if that happened a few times.

What? A competitive Tau force is made up of Crisis suits, Riptides and Broadsides; that's three units. You don't have to play competitively you know, there is such thing as taking units you like, for example I take Kroot squads WITHOUT sniper ammo, just 'cuz I like Kroot.

I take assault Pink Horrors! led by a Locus of S=D6 Tzherald in my Tzeentch Daemons because it's hilarious as hell to see S5 or S6 Horrors laying the smack-down on Space Puppies!

I like you guys I guess people playing this way have more fun with the game, even if they lose a match.

What? A competitive Tau force is made up of Crisis suits, Riptides and Broadsides; that's three units. You don't have to play competitively you know, there is such thing as taking units you like, for example I take Kroot squads WITHOUT sniper ammo, just 'cuz I like Kroot.

But sniper ammo kroots are ok. FW warriors may not be briliant, but they aren't bad. GK have 2 troops out of which 1 doesn't make sense at all , it is always worse for the same points. They don't have pods, so they can't run melta vets. Tau can run a buffmander, but an etheral isn't totaly crap. GK are runing librarians, because they are super awesome, they run them because every other HQ options is bad for the points it costs.
Purifiers without pods are very bad, interceptors are weaker versions of NKDs or pod less purifires. As I said before tau stuff isn't what it was in 6th, but you can run kroot, you can run pathfinders, buffmanders, FW, broadsides and riptides.Hammer heads are also ok. Not briliant but it is still more then 4 units that GK use. It only balances itself out if GK take ally.Which they more or less have to take, because GK don't have a single viable anti tank unit.

Experiment 626 wrote:


The real problem is that too many people are only ever interested in balls-to-the-walls curbstomping.
Try something other than foaming at the mouth "Tournament" grand standing and suddenly you're spoiled for options...

Strike Squads are fine. Yes they're not the 110% most optimised unit, but they work and can open up a brand new can of tactics by providing things such as a cheap obsec camper, Razorback support, etc...

As a grey Knights player looking at all of my options, im gonna have to agree with the analysis given already. The unit selection is so poor that taking anything less than purifier, terminators, NDK's and librarians is almost criminally wasteful. And i don't just mean that from a "power gaming" or "foaming at the mouth tournamnet grandstanding either" the reality is they stripped away all inquisition and assassin stuff from the codex. Which a third of our viable 5th and 6th ed units are gone. Saying it is too boring to play against a deep striking NSF with NDK's and you would like to see some variety with other units basically is asking someone to play against you with sub par units so that your game can be more interesting to you. That really seems like a really self centered and unfair request.

As a GK player, I find it boring playing with just librarians, terminators, interceptors, and dreadknights, using either the Turn 1 deep strike, or a turn 1 shunt move to have the same effect. But, unfortunately, too much was taken from the codex to make anything else worthwhile or effective in even a casual environment. The removal of Inquisition and Assassins did not impact my GK, but the removal of psybolt ammo removed my ability to play a mid range shooting army, by making my strike squads subpar (particularly with the change to psycannons) and psyfleman dreads are gone. The only options I really have left are to get in your face as soon as possible with as much as I can, and that limits my options.

Sure, allies are available, but if I have to go outside of my codex to "make it work," then that is poor game design and a poor excuse.

Hey total0 how bout you come to propsed rules GK thread and suggest some useful contributions.

So this thread is basically a veiled complaint about competitive 40K?

I completely understand this. My lists are always librarian, terminators and dread knights. To mix it up I add storm raven, interceptors and rarely purifiers. There is nothing else worth taking as they are so sub par and situational. Always halberds, incinerators on interceptors, psycannons on terminators, sword/incinerators on dread knights. Deep strike turn 1 every time. Try anything else and my low numbers, lack of range, and good transports (drop pods or anything that can jink) means I'll die before I get anywhere useful.

SGTPozy wrote:

 total0 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, my topic isnt to discuss how gk players think they didnt get any love (even though the codex isnt half as bad as its made out but i digress). The topic was about how boring it is to go against a Monobuild built around dk spam, people are quick to jump on wave serpant spam being broken. And please dont reply again saying mono build or we lost this this this this this this and this, it gets boring after a while

I've got to agree. I've played against GKs a few times and the lists are essentially the same. When I told one guy that I was playing Tau, he asked if I was playing Riptide spam, which I wasn't, but I was using one. It turns out that he was using three Dreadknights but viewed that as okay.

We played Maelstrom (like I always suggest) and he was destroying me. His incinerators destroyed most of my FW, and there were way too many targets for my one Crisis suit squad (other than the Riptide, the only plasma in my army) to take out. After turn 1, I started to get more points and stuff, if it were kill points, he definitely would have won, but I got lucky with my cards.

After the game, he told me that I only won because my army was OP and he can't wait for them to get nerfed, and because his army was really weak. I was shocked at how butthurt he was to be honest.

Sounds like you've found yourself a TFG there dude. He tried to make a powerful list whilst making sure you weren't spamming your good unit, he probably will have been a bit obnoxious whilst things were going his way, he will have then acted poorly when you started winning and making it a good close game, he then blamed everything but himself afterwards and tried to steal your thunder by condemning your win down to 'it shouldn't have happened'. Wow what an a-hole.

I honestly think this is the sole problem. People can bring whatever lists they like and still have a good game if they're nice people, but when particularly strong lists are played by someone who is quite frankly the human equivalent of an Ork then it's going to be a pretty awful experience.

My kustom mega kannons are often running forward to bauble wrap the grots who bauble wrap the boyz who bauble wrap stormboyz who jump around to distract the opponent from another boyz who act as a tarpit. And i regularly pull wins. Maelstorm FTW.

But yep, grey knight's choices are very limited.

Teleporting Draigo
Undercosted librarians vs mostly fine HQ-s that are not as good as a librarian
Great termies vs passable strikes that have the uses but are generally not that good as cheap termies
Super undercosted and centerpiece NDK...

It's just you can take different stuff and still have a fine list. But many people prefer taudar with triptides cause it's the easiest way to win. It's not good or bad. It's just how stuff works.

 koooaei wrote:
My kustom mega kannons are often running forward to bauble wrap the grots who bauble wrap the boyz who bauble wrap stormboyz who jump around to distract the opponent from another boyz who act as a tarpit. And i regularly pull wins. Maelstorm FTW.

But yep, grey knight's choices are very limited.

Teleporting Draigo
Undercosted librarians vs mostly fine HQ-s that are not as good as a librarian
Great termies vs passable strikes that have the uses but are generally not that good as cheap termies
Super undercosted and centerpiece NDK...

It's just you can take different stuff and still have a fine list. But many people prefer taudar with triptides cause it's the easiest way to win. It's not good or bad. It's just how stuff works.

Pretty much this


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
but the removal of psybolt ammo removed my ability to play a mid range shooting army, by making my strike squads subpar (particularly with the change to psycannons) and psyfleman dreads are gone. The only options I really have left are to get in your face as soon as possible with as much as I can, and that limits my options.

So, i will never going to have good mid range army with my space wolfs, because they never had psybolt ammo? mmm Gk have stormbolters, power weapons and psychic powers by default on their basic troops, have access to rhinos, and have troops that can deep strike mmm and dont forget a flyer that is sturdy and have more weapons than a land raider oh and is an assault vehicle, so i dont know what you want for a mid range army, maybe some

Yeah, its pretty boring to constantly roll over the same silly netlist. Even more boring to listen to the whingeing from the player who thought three monstrous creatures were a good match-up against Sisters.

I am too tired right now, I can't tell what your implying Miko.

Makumba wrote:
When people say they don't like GK monobuilds they do understand that everything outside of it that is not ally kind of a sucks or is very overcosted. The librarian isn't cheap, he just isn't overcosted like every other GK HQ in the book, If dreads or LR or anything else was a good support unit, then some people would have taken them. But they are not so people take the NDKS.

Yes, the troop terminator squads are SO overcosted, a terminatorwing CAD based army is defiantly not a viable army.

/sarcasam



Dreads, LDs and all ARE good support units, and people DO take them, when not going for WAAC turny lists.

Same as my tau runs with multiple hammerheads, a unit no turny army sees except a rare longstriker (who I do not use) and its totally viable.



The fact a unit is not WAAC turny top table with permanent club membership does not make a unit not worth playing.









Miko is implying that SoB are so off the meta while one-dimentional that the classic MC spams fail horribly against them, as they pack random 6++ to save a few dudes from the "what armor save?" meta, and their army is based on the art of spamming S8AP1 (usually with melta) like there was a sale on walmart, and hit them with scouting units, across the board flingers and mechspam.
And if you don't know how to handle the oddball they are, you are going to get melted.
And the netlisters rage how this "useless army" is beating the crap out of them.

The one time my supertide (riptides with all the side-dished) was killed by turn 2, it was the work of the sisters. so much godamn S8AP1!

 GKTiberius wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


The real problem is that too many people are only ever interested in balls-to-the-walls curbstomping.
Try something other than foaming at the mouth "Tournament" grand standing and suddenly you're spoiled for options...

Strike Squads are fine. Yes they're not the 110% most optimised unit, but they work and can open up a brand new can of tactics by providing things such as a cheap obsec camper, Razorback support, etc...

As a grey Knights player looking at all of my options, im gonna have to agree with the analysis given already. The unit selection is so poor that taking anything less than purifier, terminators, NDK's and librarians is almost criminally wasteful. And i don't just mean that from a "power gaming" or "foaming at the mouth tournamnet grandstanding either" the reality is they stripped away all inquisition and assassin stuff from the codex. Which a third of our viable 5th and 6th ed units are gone. Saying it is too boring to play against a deep striking NSF with NDK's and you would like to see some variety with other units basically is asking someone to play against you with sub par units so that your game can be more interesting to you. That really seems like a really self centered and unfair request.

As someone who runs mono-Tzeentch Daemons, this is no different... I willingly choose to outright ignore about 60% of my codex for theme. I end up leaving myself with the following for units choices:
LoC
MoT Daemon Prince
Tzheralds
Horrors
Flamers
Screamers
Firewyrms ('counts as' Beast of Nurgle)
Changebringers ('counts as' Plaguedrones)
MoT Furies
MoT Soul Grinder
Burning Chariots

That's 3 total HQ possibilities, and 8-9 total 'everything else' unit options. And most of that list is considered to be a steaming poop sandwich by the mighty Internet Wisdoms.
If were to boil that list down to only the most optimised options, then I'd have all of about 4 or 5 things across my army. And it would be a very boring list both to play with, and likely 0 fun at all to play against, what with min/maxed Horrors spamming WC's & summoning powers, a mini Deathstar and a bunch of nasty av13 walkers that tend not to die.

Instead, I take what looks fun & interesting, such as those Locus of Change Horrors led by a Chaos Spawn-making Tzherald. Or my favourite unit of all time, 9 Flamers!! (people love my Flamers - they also *really* love killing my Flamers too!)

I win some games, I lose some games. I'll even give this non-optimised a spin at a local tourney. Sure it's not going to roflstomp the competition, but it's a fun tactical challenge and at the end of the day, if both my opponent & I can walk away from a game having had a great time killing stuff & laughing over crazy stuffs happening, then that's all that matters!

If my ego really needs some stroking, I've got a couple trophy cases full of medals & trophies from my competitive hockey career to content myself with.