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If this KS has been the Pod at it's best behavior, I can't imagine how they've managed to stay around at all. Oh, wait...

warboss wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
@warboss, As far as your fears that DP9 will say, 'feth it', I can say that the many fans in that group are holding the Pod to a standard. It's not about getting fethed over by the company, nor is there to be mudslinging. I and the others there want to see the efforts shared, and succeed in connecting the wider world audience with Heavy Gear.

I genuinely hope you're right about that first part as DP9 has a distressing history of doing exactly that when they aren't shamed into doing better going back 20+ years. It's not dredging up old grudges but rather pattern recognition. This kickstarter is supposed to be the (final) new start for the company, product line, and IP in several different ways and this is another unfortunate preventable roadblock on that journey.

I've been there for quite a few, and I've had it mentioned multiple times about the whens and wheres. Do believe that I keep that in mind.

So far on the DP9 forums several people have come out and said much of the defects were/are unacceptable, so yeah Bran your right to a degree.

This same group though also produced 11Bullets and his insulting "you pay for the Podbay's mistakes" idea though too.

What I would have found as a preferable option for the podbay is for them to wait until all the waves have been delivered, and than go back and redress any of the major defects. Yeah, I don't really like waiting any longer, but this would let them: A get back on their feet, and B: take stock of what needs to be replaced in bulk so they can add that to the manufacturer's order for pre-orders; get it all done in one swoop. Offering metal jager backpacks to offset the miscast one would also be a reasonable idea.

@Brandon:
How does being in disagreement invalidate an opinion? The only thing John is guilty of is being a pushy in expressing it. While I'm mostly fine with how the ones I've built look (even if the Recon gears feel smaller than before), doesn't change the fact that they are different than what was initially promised. To be honest, (and I'm not even a gifted amature, let alone an expert in making miniatures) I really never understood why they couldn't have directly copied the metal molds and made EXACT copies. Like GW has been doing since they made plastic their mainstay (their first bulk non-starter plastics were carbon copies of their metal marines), or Privateer press (for their infantry).

Man, Dakka at it's finest, amirite?!

Seriously, this thread is a bunch of crap. I've got a massive amount of minis from this Kickstarter and really people here are overstating any of the issue. Dimpling happens in nearly all large-cast plastic minis, it's part of the hobby, just as much as mold lines, it's not something exclusive to DP9. Most of the imperfections in the models are just that, imperfections, I've yet to see anyone show a picture of a model so horrifically disfigured that it should be replaced.

If anything they've been incredibly professional in even acknowledging the issues they've found and can make their models even better in future casting runs. Most companies just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist, and keep pumping out the flawed minis (anyone who has assembled a tau crisis suit knows about how bad dimpling can be). We don't need an apology for something that is pretty standard, it's just something that happens and if it bugs you enough, can be easily corrected.

You guys really need to chill out, especially when some of the most expensive miniatures in the world come out like this and don't lead to threads full of vitriol on a daily basis: http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m508/Heavens-Eagle/Storm%20Eagle%20for%20Cancer/GamesDay2013-2.jpg

 minionboy wrote:
Dimpling happens in nearly all large-cast plastic minis, it's part of the hobby, just as much as mold lines, it's not something exclusive to DP9.

I haven't had any issue with dimpling on my Baneblade, Shadowsword, Valkyrie, Imperial Knight, or Wraithknight. Nor my Dreamforge Leviathan. Nor my Kingdom Death models. Nor my Bandai Gundam kits. Dimpling is an issue with cheap plastic and low quality production, and the idea that we should accept it is ridiculous.

Second, mold lines can be very fine. If we use a human hair as the minimal standard, my most recent GW, Dreamforge, Gundam and KD product have had minimal mold lines and minimal flash. I would not accept that large mold lines or misalignment should be acceptable today.

This product isn't even as good as a 1980s Tamiya scale armor.

If you're OK with the Pod delivering 1970s quality going into 2020, that's on you. But to suggest that others should be so forgiving, just because the Pod has a few white knights, that's simply ridiculous.

Sorry, I thought you only went into the Kickstarter for $1. Where's the product you own so that you can make first-hand comparison? More to the point, what's your deal? You paid your entry fee, decided you didn't like the product enough to buy, and then...you decided that everyone should stop liking what you don't like? For someone who never bought anything from the KS you have this weird need to tell this story about how DP9 and their KS product is bad. Does a successful HGB compete with your KOG homebrew or something?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I haven't had any issue with dimpling on my Baneblade, Shadowsword, Valkyrie, Imperial Knight, or Wraithknight. Nor my Dreamforge Leviathan. Nor my Kingdom Death models. Nor my Bandai Gundam kits. Dimpling is an issue with cheap plastic and low quality production, and the idea that we should accept it is ridiculous.

You should consider yourself lucky then. All of those GW minis (can't speak for the others, never seen them in person) have been designed to avoid puckering, and are VASTLY larger kits than HGB models, which allow them to make everything hollow and avoid this issue whenever possible. Try playing Tau that tend to get dimpling on suit heads and weapons (SMS and fusion guns in particular), or basically any other model kit that has flat boxy areas more than a mm thick, much like the HGB sculpts.

Additionally, I've got a mountain of FW models that all have issues with dimpling, and each one costs more than the entire 4-player set from this Kickstarter. Dimpling happens, and what has happened on the ones in this Kickstarter aren't even that bad. To make it better, unlike GW (sorry kiddo, GW isn't perfect), they're actually rectifying it for future production runs.

For kits coming from a small company, which DP9 is, these are fantastic, and far better quality than I had expected.

Nomeny wrote:
Sorry, I thought you only went into the Kickstarter for $1. Where's the product you own so that you can make first-hand comparison? More to the point, what's your deal? You paid your entry fee, decided you didn't like the product enough to buy, and then...you decided that everyone should stop liking what you don't like? For someone who never bought anything from the KS you have this weird need to tell this story about how DP9 and their KS product is bad. Does a successful HGB compete with your KOG homebrew or something?

The product is what people are showing, obviously.

Whether others like the product is on them - I don't care. I do, however, take exception to ignorant people saying that the quality of the models is not crap.

The objective fact is that the models delivered do not, and can not match what was proposed during the KS. Unlike, say Super Dungeon Explore or Bones or Zombicide. SPM, Reaper, CMoN - deliver minis that look 99% what was shown in the KS.

The other fact is that the models are clearly more flawed than they should be for any HIPS models produced from new tooling in the past few years. Claiming that every model has flaws belies the fact that the overwhelming majority of modern kits are not nearly as flawed as these.

So, if people want to keep arguing that crap is good, I'm going to keep arguing that no, crap is crap.

As for KOG light project, I didn't bring that up in this particular part of the discussion - you did. I don't even link it in my sig. So you're reading something in that isn't there. Or you're creating something that isn't there.

Regardless, whether I put in a buck, a thousand, or nothing, that doens't preclude me from noting that people are wrong when they claim that this product is up to par.

 minionboy wrote:
Man, Dakka at it's finest, amirite?!

Seriously, this thread is a bunch of crap. I've got a massive amount of minis from this Kickstarter and really people here are overstating any of the issue. Dimpling happens in nearly all large-cast plastic minis, it's part of the hobby, just as much as mold lines, it's not something exclusive to DP9. Most of the imperfections in the models are just that, imperfections, I've yet to see anyone show a picture of a model so horrifically disfigured that it should be replaced.

If anything they've been incredibly professional in even acknowledging the issues they've found and can make their models even better in future casting runs. Most companies just sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist, and keep pumping out the flawed minis (anyone who has assembled a tau crisis suit knows about how bad dimpling can be). We don't need an apology for something that is pretty standard, it's just something that happens and if it bugs you enough, can be easily corrected.

You guys really need to chill out, especially when some of the most expensive miniatures in the world come out like this and don't lead to threads full of vitriol on a daily basis: http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m508/Heavens-Eagle/Storm%20Eagle%20for%20Cancer/GamesDay2013-2.jpg

The lack of a flame war over the GW miscast is because it's an isolated issue. Someone got a faulty product, and it was probably replaced fairly quickly. What's happening here is very similar to the still relatively recent Failcast issues. The rage behind that can of worms could have powered several major cities for years. The production itself is flawed. It's not an isolated incident, (every Jager sprue has the same exact back pack flaw, and no one has reported one that doesn't have that issue). On top of that, the Podbay issued a VERY poorly worded (in my opinion) press release about it that fanned the flames rather than calmed things down.

@Nomeny: "Does a successful HGB compete with your KOG homebrew or something? "

He does seem to push it alot. Feels like every couple of pages, at least in the other thread.

@minionboy: I guess I've been lucky too, not that I buy that much from forgeworld. But I rarely run into the same flaw twice with GW.

 minionboy wrote:
Man, Dakka at it's finest, amirite?!

I am sure it is. This thread exists, here, instead of having disappeared and the posters banned.

You should consider yourself lucky then. All of those GW minis (can't speak for the others, never seen them in person) have been designed to avoid puckering, and are VASTLY larger kits than HGB models, which allow them to make everything hollow and avoid this issue whenever possible. Try playing Tau that tend to get dimpling on suit heads and weapons (SMS and fusion guns in particular), or basically any other model kit that has flat boxy areas more than a mm thick, much like the HGB sculpts.

I'm not much of a GW fanboy myself, but one thing I can say: I have never had any problem with a GW mini or sprue that has not been promptly replaced. I've never have been told "just use some putty to smooth it off" if I wanted a replacement. Until now, I could say the same of DP9. No more.

As to Tau, I've assembled in the las couple of months a Start collecting box, a scouts box and an additional fire warrior squad. It might have to do with all of them being new sprues, but I did not find any dimpling whatsoever.

 minionboy wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I haven't had any issue with dimpling on my Baneblade, Shadowsword, Valkyrie, Imperial Knight, or Wraithknight. Nor my Dreamforge Leviathan. Nor my Kingdom Death models. Nor my Bandai Gundam kits. Dimpling is an issue with cheap plastic and low quality production, and the idea that we should accept it is ridiculous.

You should consider yourself lucky then. All of those GW minis (can't speak for the others, never seen them in person) have been designed to avoid puckering, and are VASTLY larger kits than HGB models, which allow them to make everything hollow and avoid this issue whenever possible. Try playing Tau that tend to get dimpling on suit heads and weapons (SMS and fusion guns in particular), or basically any other model kit that has flat boxy areas more than a mm thick, much like the HGB sculpts.

Additionally, I've got a mountain of FW models that all have issues with dimpling, and each one costs more than the entire 4-player set from this Kickstarter. Dimpling happens, and what has happened on the ones in this Kickstarter aren't even that bad. To make it better, unlike GW (sorry kiddo, GW isn't perfect), they're actually rectifying it for future production runs.

For kits coming from a small company, which DP9 is, these are fantastic, and far better quality than I had expected.

Let me get this straight. You foolishly claimed that (and I quote again) "Dimpling happens in nearly all large-cast plastic minis, it's part of the hobby, just as much as mold lines, it's not something exclusive to DP9."

I gave *several* examples of plastic minis (across multiple decades) that clearly disprove your statement.

And now you're getting all pissy with me, moving the goalposts to include some resin stuff that isn't perfect? To try and make your terribly weak point, you're now using poured resin in rubber molds as the reference, rather than the injection plastic in tooled steel that characterizes current plastic models?

Dude, you can kiss Robert's ass all you like, I won't stop you there.

But don't go around telling lies about how the Pod's stuff is somehow up to par for 2016, or that everybody else is equally flawed. It's not, and they aren't. And moving the goalposts to make an apples-to-oranges comparison is like being a Flat Earther.
____

Also, at no point did I ever claim that "GW was perfect".

 Mmmpi wrote:
The lack of a flame war over the GW miscast is because it's an isolated issue. Someone got a faulty product, and it was probably replaced fairly quickly. What's happening here is very similar to the still relatively recent Failcast issues. The rage behind that can of worms could have powered several major cities for years. The production itself is flawed. It's not an isolated incident, (every Jager sprue has the same exact back pack flaw, and no one has reported one that doesn't have that issue). On top of that, the Podbay issued a VERY poorly worded (in my opinion) press release about it that fanned the flames rather than calmed things down.

@Nomeny: "Does a successful HGB compete with your KOG homebrew or something? "

He does seem to push it alot. Feels like every couple of pages, at least in the other thread.

@minionboy: I guess I've been lucky too, not that I buy that much from forgeworld. But I rarely run into the same flaw twice with GW.

I suppose I thought that even acknowledging the issue was pretty damn professional, I don't think we are entitled to any apology, none of the issues really are really bad enough that they should be begging for forgiveness. I took a good look at my Jagers and the dimpling is incredibly minor, it's so slight that seriously after a lick of paint, you'll never notice it. It is however more noticeable on the shiny black plastic they're cast in because it reflects light differently.

A quick google search of "tau bits" yielded a picture of exactly what I was talking about. Same cracking-lines on the Missile Pod, same slight puckering on it the fusion gun (notice the slightly lighter color in the middle, due to reflecting the light differently), and the multi-tracker. Yes these are the older bits, but they illustrate the problem: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/371052659149-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

Here's a lovely crisis suit head that shows the dimpling on the back half and around the injection point, and this is the NEW version.: http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/tau_crisis_suits_head_1_large.JPG

If you want to know what it's like to assemble FW models "correctly" just take a look at this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/507545.page

Basically every large section is puckered at some point and requires filling and sanding. FW gets a pass because they're for "expert" players, but really, that's just a BS excuse, they cost a ton yet get a pass because they're expected to be crap... Seriously, DP9 doesn't deserve to be raked through the coals for delivering overall a fantastic product, with the worst problems being incredibly minor defects that are mostly invisible after painting. I backed this Kickstarter for 2x of each army set, plus a handful of extra gears on top of that, I have a lot invested in the game (compared to many), and I couldn't be more thrilled with the result.

So what you're saying is that you're complaining out of principle?

 Mmmpi wrote:
@Nomeny: "Does a successful HGB compete with your KOG homebrew or something? "

He does seem to push it alot. Feels like every couple of pages, at least in the other thread.

I'm sorry if you thought I was pushing KL excessively. You'll see a lot less of that from here on out. I'll still announce "final" release(s), but that'll be the end of it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
@Nomeny: "Does a successful HGB compete with your KOG homebrew or something? "

He does seem to push it alot. Feels like every couple of pages, at least in the other thread.

I'm sorry if you thought I was pushing KL excessively. You'll see a lot less of that from here on out. I'll still announce "final" release(s), but that'll be the end of it.

Don't worry about it. Just because I'm not interested doesn't mean the others aren't.

 minionboy wrote:
A quick google search of "tau bits" yielded a picture of exactly what I was talking about. Same cracking-lines on the Missile Pod, same slight puckering on it the fusion gun (notice the slightly lighter color in the middle, due to reflecting the light differently), and the multi-tracker. Yes these are the older bits, but they illustrate the problem: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/371052659149-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

Here's a lovely crisis suit head that shows the dimpling on the back half and around the injection point, and this is the NEW version.: http://www.bitzbox.co.uk/images/tau_crisis_suits_head_1_large.JPG

If I'm not mistaken, the flaws you're pointing out are like the one in the Jäger's forearm, isn't it? Were the slight decoloration shows a small lack of material. The one from the Jäger's shoulder, though, is a full-on dimple. And the Jäger's engine show full a heavy depression and a deformity in the engine grill.

You know, what I find the most amusing with this whole casting scandal, is that people have forgotten the actual minis, even with a perfect cast, are seriously bleh. The proportions are bad, the detail is either shallow, or lacking, and the painted pics that have been posted only confirm that no paintjob can save those.
Man, the plastic Black Mamba doesn't even look good next to a tac-era Mamba, so lets spare the poor anorexic thing a comparison to the gorgeous Blitz Mamba. Now that's what I call a "defect".

Since we seem to be having some...difficulties in here, here's a quick refresher on the rules:

RULE #1 is BE POLITE, and it is required AT ALL TIMES.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Rule 1: Be Polite
This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

Consider this post the only general in thread warning that will be given - after this, warnings and possibly suspensions will follow.

I'm sorry if anybody was taking anything I said personally. I apologize for that.

As I don't want to cause any trouble for you guys, I'm out of the thread. Good luck.

 HudsonD wrote:
You know, what I find the most amusing with this whole casting scandal, is that people have forgotten the actual minis, even with a perfect cast, are seriously bleh. The proportions are bad, the detail is either shallow, or lacking, and the painted pics that have been posted only confirm that no paintjob can save those.
Man, the plastic Black Mamba doesn't even look good next to a tac-era Mamba, so lets spare the poor anorexic thing a comparison to the gorgeous Blitz Mamba. Now that's what I call a "defect".

That ship sailed months ago, during the design phase when the Pod found that the initial files wouldn't work for designing molds. I don't know why they didn't just try to port the metal designs over to plastic, but then I'm not privy to the logistics driving their design solutions. I'm personally very happy with the miniatures and how they turned out, even if they aren't plastic copies of the metal miniatures. The painted pictures that were put up before Gencon sold me on the models, and if you care to read the Kickstarter comments and the forums I'm not the only person happy with the miniatures. I mean, if you put in money to the Kickstarter and now own models you don't want, I'll be happy to take them off your hands, but if you're just standing on the sidelines complaining that the models you didn't buy are models you don't like, well, I guess you're entitled to your opinions. It's not like you can't continue to buy the metal models if you're absolutely determined to buy a product you don't like from a company you don't like.

 HudsonD wrote:
You know, what I find the most amusing with this whole casting scandal, is that people have forgotten the actual minis, even with a perfect cast, are seriously bleh. The proportions are bad, the detail is either shallow, or lacking, and the painted pics that have been posted only confirm that no paintjob can save those.
Man, the plastic Black Mamba doesn't even look good next to a tac-era Mamba, so lets spare the poor anorexic thing a comparison to the gorgeous Blitz Mamba. Now that's what I call a "defect".

To borrow from the software industry, the mambas looking anorexic is a now long known feature. The mambas potentially missing body parts, sporting gaping wounds, or wearing burkhas over their V-engines is a more recent bug.

Did anyone back the HG terrain kickstarter a few months back? If so, you may want to take note of the creator's "pro-business" stance on casting issues now reposted and confirmed.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17650&p=304326

 warboss wrote:
Did anyone back the HG terrain kickstarter a few months back? If so, you may want to take note of the creator's "pro-business" stance on casting issues now reposted and confirmed.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17650&p=304326

That isn't HG terrain, nor do I believe Terraforms is associated in any way with DP9, it's just generic 10-12mm scale terrain, and his points are totally valid, specifically this one:

"A defect is not a defect when bubbles, dimples, etc are a normal part of the process of metal, plastic, or resin recreations. Go find a modelling tutorial that doesn't begin with "prep the model by filling gaps or bubbles, removing flash and seam lines, etc" and instead says "check your model for any defect, return to the store if you find anything." It's an industry standard. It happens, and frequently. Again, I say that most of what have been brought up aren't 'defect' in the sense as it applies in this industry, since industry norm is what they'll use not Webster's Dictionary. None the less, the DP9 crew have been happy to handle the issue, as is a good business practice."

I firmly disagree, both here and on the DP9 forums. The industry leaders disagree seeing as they replace those models with little or no fighting, usually just a picture to confirm you actually bought the item you're complaining about.

It would be like buying a red car, only to find out the hood was dented because someone in the factory dropped a wrench on it. The car dealer doesn't tell you to pull the dent yourself, repaint and clear coat. They fix it themselves.

Most of the people in those videos just don't want to take the time to wait over a minor defect (and those small bubbles and such ARE defects, no matter how you try to sugar coat it), that it would take to contact GW/PP/ect and wait for the replacement to be mailed to them. I have asked for defective parts to be replaced, and GW and PP both have been more than happy to send me what I needed. Reaper has done the same with missing parts. GW didn't even demand evidence that I had bought a product, and sent me 30 backpacks rather than the five I needed. Defective in this case means bubbles in plastic, deformed metal, not as pictured on their websites/catalogs. Aka how people are describing the molding issues with HG. Not as depicted. Broken but still usable.

Hmm...Three of the biggest miniature companies freely replace defective (aka not perfect) product. And I've heard the same from FFG's players, Mantic players, and Battletech players. I'm thinking your industry norms aren't actually all that normal.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to the car example. You might be thinking "But Mmmpi, a car costs thousands of dollars, while your mini's are only $2 a piece."

My answer back is: I don't care. I paid for correct, I expect correct, it doesn't matter if I payed 2 bucks or had to take out a loan.

 Mmmpi wrote:
It would be like buying a red car, only to find out the hood was dented because someone in the factory dropped a wrench on it. The car dealer doesn't tell you to pull the dent yourself, repaint and clear coat. They fix it themselves.

Bad analogy is bad. If you drive the car off the lot, no dealer is going to repair a damn thing that isn't under warranty.

Regarding the models though, unlike a car, models have inherent flaws, which is why you spend time cleaning mold lines and filling gaps or bubbles. Part of the hobby is perfecting the model from an imperfect manufacturing process, it's the step that most people do right before painting, and if you don't do, people will point out as something YOU didn't do. They don't comment that X company really shouldn't have shipped you a model with mold lines or other imperfections, they say, you should have done a better job prepping your models.

The models I own, and the ones I've seen, I haven't seen anything beyond what I would consider normal. Just like any other kit you buy from nearly any other manufacturer. Yes, the big guys will replace anything, often without question, but they also have it in their operating budget to do so and can afford/need the write off. DP9, while they may have been around for a long time (in name) are nowhere near as big as the big players, nor are they in a position to burn money over things which are really, at the end of the day, pretty standard in the hobby.

 minionboy wrote:

That isn't HG terrain, nor do I believe Terraforms is associated in any way with DP9, it's just generic 10-12mm scale terrain,

Except that it was promoted by DP9's Robert in the DP9 announcement section of the forum

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17431

And he uses HG models in every real life shot in his kickstarter video... and is allowed to use HG logos in association with his own advertisements (see his sig banner). If that isn't "associated in any way with DP9" then I don't know what it. He's not an employee but that isn't the sole criteria of association.

and his points are totally valid, specifically this one:

"A defect is not a defect when bubbles, dimples, etc are a normal part of the process of metal, plastic, or resin recreations. Go find a modelling tutorial that doesn't begin with "prep the model by filling gaps or bubbles, removing flash and seam lines, etc" and instead says "check your model for any defect, return to the store if you find anything." It's an industry standard. It happens, and frequently. Again, I say that most of what have been brought up aren't 'defect' in the sense as it applies in this industry, since industry norm is what they'll use not Webster's Dictionary. None the less, the DP9 crew have been happy to handle the issue, as is a good business practice."

He also said in the same post you quoted:

" If you get a defective piece from me, expect to pay to ship it back to me. I've already bit the bullet and will have paid the vast majority of shipping fees to get the product to you (doubly so for international backers). If it's truly defective then I'll happily recast a new piece, ensure that it is free of defect, and send it back to you with a handwritten note. "

Please note that he is referring to REAL defects there and not flash, gaps, seams, or minor bubbles. Yes, if he sends you a globular ball of resin with an imprint of his foot that he accidentally stepped in instead of the building you were supposed to get, he'll autograph a love note for you and charge you twice for shipping as punishment. That's some Siembieda-level stuff there. Oh, and what happens if you pay shipping twice and send him a defective part... and he DISAGREES that about it being defective? You just paid for a piece of terrain AND double shipping and have nothing to show for it. Maybe he'll generously offer to send you back the totally not defective part for a third shipping payment along with a sample of hair for a locket? He has a throwaway statement about maybe throwing in some extra bits and bobs but then goes on to disclaimer it within the same sentence.

Talk to Toyota or the writers of the lemon laws about "perfect car manufacturing". I also know a few people who've ordered cars, test drove the delivery before paying, and got those repairs done. I also know people who've brought a car back within hours of purchase and had fixes made at the dealer's expense, so it's a two way street.

Mold lines happen. A bubble, or a gap that shouldn't have existed also happen. Doesn't mean we have to accept it. I've never had anyone not replace defective models for me (using the Webster's dictionary definition of defective). Even DP9 until recently had a good reputation for meeting this industry norm. Don't think of it as burning money. All these companies do it for the same reason. It's an investment into a potential returning customer, and good press, rather than a few bucks for the loss of future business and bad press. None of it is altruistic. And I do feel DP9 can afford it, or more to the point I feel they can't afford not too. I suspect that after all the shipping is done, we'll receive an email asking people to send in their claims for defective product if only so they can fix the issues in their manufacturing chain.

 minionboy wrote:

The models I own, and the ones I've seen, I haven't seen anything beyond what I would consider normal. Just like any other kit you buy from nearly any other manufacturer. Yes, the big guys will replace anything, often without question, but they also have it in their operating budget to do so and can afford/need the write off. DP9, while they may have been around for a long time (in name) are nowhere near as big as the big players, nor are they in a position to burn money over things which are really, at the end of the day, pretty standard in the hobby.

I don't consider dimples on a flat featureless surface to be returnable either but I do consider having to gap fill that kind of casting error in a plastic kit to be indicative of BELOW average quality. In 25+ years in the minis game hobby, I've never had to bondo a dent (to use the earlier analogy) on plastic kits from any manufacturer... Seams? Yeah... Gaps... occasionally... but actual depressions or cavities? Never. I've had to do it moderately frequently with resin and ocassionally with metal but never plastic even going back to late 80's early 90's model airplane and starship kits. YMMV.

In any case, your pic palming three gears on your sig link blog might be the first time/angle I've seen the plastic gears actually look nice (as opposed to just meh).

 warboss wrote:
In any case, your pic palming three gears on your sig link blog might be the first time/angle I've seen the plastic gears actually look nice (as opposed to just meh).

This one?



Personally, I would not say that they look good in comparison with the equivalent metals, but I'd say that they do look decent enough, probably because the poses selected seem to agree with the parts.

Also, it seems to me that the plastic used (color, reflections) is very unflattering to the miniatures.

Yup, that's the one. I think it's more the straight on angle that doesn't draw attention to the immobile hips as much and the torsos look a bit more bulked up there too. I don't doubt that I'd still far prefer the metals in a side by side comparison but that's the first pic of the plastic gears (including the painted ones DP9 put out with the updates) where I wasn't automatically drawn to the negatives of the design. Just in case someone brings up Caprice as a counterpoint, I specifically said "gears" above.

 warboss wrote:

 HudsonD wrote:
You know, what I find the most amusing with this whole casting scandal, is that people have forgotten the actual minis, even with a perfect cast, are seriously bleh. The proportions are bad, the detail is either shallow, or lacking, and the painted pics that have been posted only confirm that no paintjob can save those.
Man, the plastic Black Mamba doesn't even look good next to a tac-era Mamba, so lets spare the poor anorexic thing a comparison to the gorgeous Blitz Mamba. Now that's what I call a "defect".

To borrow from the software industry, the mambas looking anorexic is a now long known feature. The mambas potentially missing body parts, sporting gaping wounds, or wearing burkhas over their V-engines is a more recent bug.

Yeah, the new minis are bad, but they're also the "future" of HG from now on, and I'm quite certain DP9 is going to retire the metal line ASAP.

The casting issues, just like the 3D models, and the final result, are just the usual sloppy "good enough for the fans" DP9 "quality".