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Greetings all.

Riddle me this: how does the screamerstar function in 7th? With the restriction on casting powers from the same unit (depending on where you play I guess), and forewarning not stacking with the grimoire (although cursed earth kinda negates that), has it lost its bite? Also, what the hell do you do if your powers/the grimoire don't go off? Am I missing something here? There was a list with a screamerstar and 2 Knights that did well at nova I think, but without Fateweaver to help out with the grimoire roll I don't see how...

Wait... why Forewarning and Grimoire don't stack now? Forewarning just says the unit has 4++. Grimoire ups that to 2++.

The problem in 7th is to successfully cast the spell and you can do it only once per unit - so it's not useful anymore to have more than 1 HoT among the Screamers to cast it. On the other hand, you can have the other 3 outside (and not joined in one unit) and try to cast on the screamers.

Oh the forewarning thing was because the psychic phase is now after the movement phase (when you use the grimoire), so they don't interact in the same way.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Oh the forewarning thing was because the psychic phase is now after the movement phase (when you use the grimoire), so they don't interact in the same way.

Psychic phase has always been after the movement phase. Here is how it does work.

Grimoire is a buff that gives you +2 to your invul save. We all know that, so turn 1 movement phase you get a +3 invul.
Psychic phase your invul changes from ++5 to ++4, grimoire still gives you a +2 to your invul, so now it is ++2.
Now it is the shooting phase, warp storm gives you a +1/-1 to your invul, do what needs to be done.

The wording on grimoire is that the unit has a +2 to their invulnerable save until the next movement phase. It isn't a +2 to your current invul, but a +2 to whatever your invul is.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Oh the forewarning thing was because the psychic phase is now after the movement phase (when you use the grimoire), so they don't interact in the same way.

Psychic phase has always been after the movement phase. Here is how it does work.

Grimoire is a buff that gives you +2 to your invul save. We all know that, so turn 1 movement phase you get a +3 invul.
Psychic phase your invul changes from ++5 to ++4, grimoire still gives you a +2 to your invul, so now it is ++2.
Now it is the shooting phase, warp storm gives you a +1/-1 to your invul, do what needs to be done.

The wording on grimoire is that the unit has a +2 to their invulnerable save until the next movement phase. It isn't a +2 to your current invul, but a +2 to whatever your invul is.

Indeed. But now I got what VN was saying: Forewarning was (and still is) a Blessing, which were cast before movement (but still in the Movement Phase), while the Grimoire was used at any point of the Movement Phase.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Oh the forewarning thing was because the psychic phase is now after the movement phase (when you use the grimoire), so they don't interact in the same way.

Psychic phase has always been after the movement phase. Here is how it does work.

Grimoire is a buff that gives you +2 to your invul save. We all know that, so turn 1 movement phase you get a +3 invul.
Psychic phase your invul changes from ++5 to ++4, grimoire still gives you a +2 to your invul, so now it is ++2.
Now it is the shooting phase, warp storm gives you a +1/-1 to your invul, do what needs to be done.

The wording on grimoire is that the unit has a +2 to their invulnerable save until the next movement phase. It isn't a +2 to your current invul, but a +2 to whatever your invul is.

Well Yes I suppose it has, but yeh I was referring to start of the turn blessings (given that there wasn't a separate phase for psychics in 6th). I'd never really thought about the grimoire having that effect actually, though I guess it makes sense.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Oh the forewarning thing was because the psychic phase is now after the movement phase (when you use the grimoire), so they don't interact in the same way.

Psychic phase has always been after the movement phase. Here is how it does work.

Grimoire is a buff that gives you +2 to your invul save. We all know that, so turn 1 movement phase you get a +3 invul.
Psychic phase your invul changes from ++5 to ++4, grimoire still gives you a +2 to your invul, so now it is ++2.
Now it is the shooting phase, warp storm gives you a +1/-1 to your invul, do what needs to be done.

The wording on grimoire is that the unit has a +2 to their invulnerable save until the next movement phase. It isn't a +2 to your current invul, but a +2 to whatever your invul is.

According to that same wording, it could also be that your invul save would go from 5++ to 3++ and then be reset to 4++ thanks to the psychic power.
It would only work one turn out of two.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people would go to such efforts to hammer their gonads over how the Grimoire can reset and actually make your Invuln Save WORSE from where you currently stand.....

Sorry but anyone trying to pull that in my area would find himself with a very large room, and no one to play against. Maybe some lego...

It still works, that interpretation of the rule is just one of the interpretations. I think BAO and maybe NOVA? Let it happen.

so are they worth it???? Do you really need Fateweaver to make it work? Could I just give the grimiore to one of my heralds?

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I cannot for the life of me understand why people would go to such efforts to hammer their gonads over how the Grimoire can reset and actually make your Invuln Save WORSE from where you currently stand.....

Sorry but anyone trying to pull that in my area would find himself with a very large room, and no one to play against. Maybe some lego...

Hey, there are people suddenly insisting that all skimmers have the drop pod ability to not mishap when they land on top of units, which is something GW would spell out.

The stars are still worth running, just give the grimoire to the herald and you will be good. Worst case your invul is turned into a 6, or 5 or whatever and you can jink for a +4 cover.

How many screamers do you think is optimal for a screamer star?

I dunno really. It's not really so much of a deathstar anymore when you're not putting 4 heralds in it. In 6th it used to be a deathstar (not even one of the best though) because it could actually damn near delete a unit a turn with the amount of flickering fire it could put out. With the changes to psychic powers, they can only ever manifest it once and flickering fire is very WC costly for its damage output in my opinion.

In 7th the most I could ever see running is two heralds in a unit of screamers. They're not a deathstar anymore, but can still be used as a really deep toolbox. To me, their strength and continued worth lies in the fact that they can be used in such a diverse manner. Cursed Earth, while not "OMG OP", is a very powerful force multiplier. Its AoE is pretty huge for what it does and seeing that a unit need only stick the toe of one model in its range, it's not that hard to imagine bumping up your entire force's invuln by 1. Divination is still a strong chart even if it's overshadowed by invisibility (the list I have the screamers in already has Be'laor for what it's worth), and can be used in a variety of ways.

I plan on using two heralds and nine screamers and seeing how it works out. I figure I'll run them more aggressively now and actually use them as an assault unit now (before you didn't want them tied down) to take on light armor, small TEQ squads, or anything else that S5 AP2 armorbane is going to hurt, in addition to providing buffs for the rest of the army and possibly summoning if it looks like that will help. General idea is to roll on Daemonology until I get cursed earth. If I get it early in the process, then switch to Divination in hopes of Forewarning (stacks nicely with Cursed Earth) or Misfortune (fun fact a full squad of hounds can take down an imperial knight if they have rending). Prescience can still be handed out fairly easy with the amount of warp charge dice daemon armies can produce.

That being said, I'm still inexperienced with them in 7th, so I'd like to hear other players' takes on the situation

Hmm... so you would want to make those heralds Mastery lvl 3 I am assuming. Plus you would want to give one of them the Grimiore?? Wow....that is getting pricey. What is the price of a 9 units screamer star with two mastery lvl 3 heralds on disks with a grimiore? 500-600 points?

It's 465 with out the Grimoire. I'm on the fence about the grimoire without Fateweaver. I'm planning on using Be'lakor and relying on Cursed Earth, Invis, Shrouding, and some synergy between units to fill the gap left by the Grimoire. Granted its not as "guaranteed" as the Grimoire is (quotes because its left me flat footed quite a few times), but when it works more units are better protected than just one having a 2++ rerollable. It's vulnerable to mass ignores cover (read: Tau, Eldar) and Faces the threat of key powers getting shut down by other psyker heavy armies, but hell, I think it will be fun and a challenge.
.

I feel that 50 points is well spent on the grimiore. If you are already dropping 400+ on the unit, you might as well add 50 points for a 2+ modifier to your invul saves. Granted it only works 66% of the time.... but I can't justify not taking it....especially since cursed earth and forewarning are not sure things.

 AutarchRion wrote:
I feel that 50 points is well spent on the grimiore. If you are already dropping 400+ on the unit, you might as well add 50 points for a 2+ modifier to your invul saves. Granted it only works 66% of the time.... but I can't justify not taking it....especially since cursed earth and forewarning are not sure things.

Good points. It's only 30 for the grimoire as well. I might move back to using it since they can always jink. (kinda sucks against tau or eldar though and those are my main opponents). Also, the screamers aren't usually my targets for the grimoire in the early game turns, its the hounds or seekers rushing their lines and getting shot in the face that I grimoire. This will be somewhat mitigated by invis though so we'll see. Just need to test the waters

Anyway, I just got in a 1000 pt test game with a buddy to give us both a refresher after a hiatus.

My list:
Tz'erald: ML3, Disc
Tz'erald: ML3, Disc
Kh'erald: Lesser (Axe), Juggernaut

11 Horrors
12 Horrors

15 Hounds
7 Screamers

His list:
Commander: 2x Missile Pod, Drone Controller, Marker Drone (attached to Missile Suit)
Commander: 2x Missile Pod, Drone Controller, Marker Drone (attached to Missile Suit)

3x Crisis Suits: 6 Burst Cannons
Crisis Suit: Missile Pod, 2 Marker Drones
Crisis Suit: Missile Pod, 2 Marker Drones
Crisis Suit: 2x Fusion Blasters
6 Fire Warriors

Riptide: HBC, ECPA, VT, EWO, SMS

Barracuda

My powers were as follows: Summoning, Cursed Earth, and Incursion on one Herald. Prescience, Foreboding, Scrier's Gaze (was looking for misfortoune or forewarning)

Vanguard Deployment, I seized on him and rushed the Hounds and Screamers forward. Failed to cast Cursed Earth on 3 dice, but managed to summon 5 hounds (turned out to be crucial). Screamers Turbo boosted, Hounds ran, everything got in his face. He put everything into the Hounds, managed to kill 13, leaving me with 1 wounded Hound and 1 full strength Hound with the Herald. He split his army in to two groups with his movement and boost moves: The BurstTide and a MIssile/Drone Squad, and the Burst Suits and a Missile/Drone Squad

Turn 2. The summoned hounds were clutch because I was able to join the Khorne Herald to 5 fresh hounds. He wouldn't have been able to survive the over watch of either one of those groupings, but because of the summoned hounds I was able to use the wounded squad to eat overwatch. Tz'eralds summoned a unit of Daemonettes (also clutch players) and cast Cursed Earth but it was denied.Pink Horrors managed to summon 5 more Hounds. I charged the screamers and fresh hounds into the Burst Suits and Missile Squad (containing his warlord) and managed wipe them.
In the Tau turn 2 his Barracuda and fire warriors came in. He was forced to use his Riptide to kill the Daemonettes I had summoned because after running in my turn they were in easy assault range. Missiles and Barracuda went into the Herald and hounds and removed a few. Boost moves in the assault phase to try to get away from me.

Turn 3. Cursed Earth goes off this time so everyone but the Pink Horrors (who were far away from the action by now) has a 4++. Tz'erald summons another unit of Daemonettes. His boost moves were insufficient to get away from the fast moving Daemons and his Riptide and Missile Squad get assaulted by the Screamers (who are Prescienced) and the Hounds I summoned in the previous turn. Combined they do enough wounds to cause -5 ld. Both units break and are swept. He's only got a Barracuda, 6 Fire Warriors, and a lone Fusion Suit in reserve so we call it.

TL;DR, but I think the ScreamerStar-lite still has a place in many Daemon armies. Granted, I do think that the summoning I did had a larger impact in this game than it might in most because it was a small game (in 3 turns I was able to summon just under 400 points. . .in a 1000 pt game ). I don't think that should detract from the overall very tactical aspect of summoning. No, the units you summon are not incredibly powerful, and yes, they are gonna die, but that's what they're supposed to do. As long as they die in a manner that throws a monkey wrench in your opponent's game plan, they were every bit worth the points invested in units that summon them.

That's not really a screamer-star at all though. It has screamers and heralds, but it isn't the screamerstar.
A screamerstar, in 6th edition was 4 Tzeralds + 9 screamers in a single unit, putting out 16D6 twin-linked S6 shots while having a re-rollable 2++. It was fast, durable, deadly.

The screamer+herald unit you're using is more about ablative wounds for the heralds while they summon. Don't get me wrong - this is probably the best ways to run Daemons currently, your list is very strong - but it isn't the ScreamerStar.

Also a few other things to note:
- Seizing on Tau is kind of a big deal. If he'd had an extra round of shooting, being able to do another 27 wounds to your hounds/screamers, you could have been the one tabled before you got to combat.
- Tau don't really deal with Daemons all that well. Invulnerable saves everywhere, and cheap, fast assault units that can beat nearly any Tau unit in combat are a counter to Tau's strengths of high AP and strong mid-range shooting. Complete lack of psykers means they only have their D6 dice vs your 10+D6, and no defense against witchfires/maledictions.

You are definitely correct about summoning. It is much more potent in low points games, due to both the lower points level and the exaggerated effect of +D6 on low power dice pools.. With 10+D6 dice you can get 1 unit reliably, with a good chance at a second, every turn. Summoning in 2 units of Flesh Hounds is a +16% swing in points. Compare that to 1850pts where you still are probably only summoning in 2 units which is only a 9% swing... You definitely are using summoning correctly, aggressively (rather than just bringing in horrors to your back field) which throws a big spanner in most army's plans.

Trasvi wrote:
That's not really a screamer-star at all though. It has screamers and heralds, but it isn't the screamerstar.
A screamerstar, in 6th edition was 4 Tzeralds + 9 screamers in a single unit, putting out 16D6 twin-linked S6 shots while having a re-rollable 2++. It was fast, durable, deadly.

The screamer+herald unit you're using is more about ablative wounds for the heralds while they summon. Don't get me wrong - this is probably the best ways to run Daemons currently, your list is very strong - but it isn't the ScreamerStar.

Also a few other things to note:
- Seizing on Tau is kind of a big deal. If he'd had an extra round of shooting, being able to do another 27 wounds to your hounds/screamers, you could have been the one tabled before you got to combat.
- Tau don't really deal with Daemons all that well. Invulnerable saves everywhere, and cheap, fast assault units that can beat nearly any Tau unit in combat are a counter to Tau's strengths of high AP and strong mid-range shooting. Complete lack of psykers means they only have their D6 dice vs your 10+D6, and no defense against witchfires/maledictions.

You are definitely correct about summoning. It is much more potent in low points games, due to both the lower points level and the exaggerated effect of +D6 on low power dice pools.. With 10+D6 dice you can get 1 unit reliably, with a good chance at a second, every turn. Summoning in 2 units of Flesh Hounds is a +16% swing in points. Compare that to 1850pts where you still are probably only summoning in 2 units which is only a 9% swing... You definitely are using summoning correctly, aggressively (rather than just bringing in horrors to your back field) which throws a big spanner in most army's plans.

Well I know it's not the ScreamerStar of yore, but that's why I chose the term "ScreamerStar-lite" or "Diet ScreamerStar" if you prefer. It's definitely not the eggs-all-in-one-basket game winner it used to be, but I still find utility in it.

ScreamerStar as it was is dead, Not being able to cast more than one of the same psychic power in addition to changing how psychic powers are manifested pretty much killed mass Flickering Fire as a viable offensive output. Like I said, I'd never take more than two Heralds, which is a significant points drop from the ScreamerStar you are talking about.

I don't see the Screamers themselves as solely ablative wounds anymore (I did in 6th though). Yes it is still an expensive unit, but when you can do everything it needs to do while locked in combat it becomes that much better. Before, getting in combat was the ScreamerStar's worst enemy because it eliminated all of its ranged damage output. Now you can still summon and cast all the blessings you want while the screamers are in combat putting out S5 AP2 armorbane attacks. Nothing to shake a stick at IMHO.

As far as the game I described went, consider a few things:
-If I hadn't seized, the bulk of my army would not have been completely in his face turn 1 for his shooting phase. Because I siezed, I put everything there. Before, the Screamers were out of LOS, and the hounds were out of range of the BurstSuits (24 S5 shots is kind of a big deal for infantry armies when marker lights bump them to BS5). I would not have been tabled had I gone 2nd.
-I agree that Tau struggle against fast assault armies, but I wouldn't say that Daemons can put out "cheap" assault units. Nearly all of them require support or synergy to do well. 80% of my points were invested into making the two assault threats I had on the board relevant. No matter what point value you play with Daemons, that is a trend.

I'm interested in this.

What if you ran three squads of screamers with a Tzeentch herald in each? You probably wouldn't need the grimoire, but getting off cursed earth could fill the same gap, couldn't it? Then you'd still be able to dole out three flickering fires per turn, and you'd have the benefit of being able to change units.

Or is that stupid?

It could be a very interesting and fun list. With the right amount of warp charges you could have 3 mobile summoning stations pooping out all sorts of fun on the field.

If I had the models for it, I would try it for kicks.

Nice batrep, and an interesting list. Thanks for posting.

People who think Forewarning and Grimoire don't stack are just following the rules.

"Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifiy a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

There's an order to apply modifiers. Applying a set modifier is the last of those things. It's too late to add 2 from the Grimoire after your save changes to 4++.

There's zero ambiguity in that rule.

Ah that's it. I thought that was the case, just couldn't remember specifically why. Seems like forewarning coupled with cursed earth would be a good fallback if the grimoire doesn't go off. Plus shrouding and invisibility from be'lakor of course.

godswildcard wrote:I'm interested in this.

What if you ran three squads of screamers with a Tzeentch herald in each? You probably wouldn't need the grimoire, but getting off cursed earth could fill the same gap, couldn't it? Then you'd still be able to dole out three flickering fires per turn, and you'd have the benefit of being able to change units.

Or is that stupid?

No, I could see that being pretty cool actually. The only trouble I have with it is giving up all my Fast Attack slots without taking any hounds (I love my Hounds+Khorne Herald) but in the age of multiple CADs this can mitigated. If taking three tunits of them, I would go for 6 or 7 screamers max. I'd also be more tempted to take the Grimoire with three units. Since you have your utility boxes more spread out, it wouldn't hurt as bad if you fail the grimoire on one. If and when the grimoire does fail just hightail it with a 24" turbo boost with that unit and that still leaves you with two mobile harassment units up front. It would all be about how you back them up at that point. Soul Grinders, Be'lakor, Nurgle Princes or some combination thereof could be viable. Possibly another detachment with Flesh Hounds to put the pressure on early. Screamers play so fast now! Now that they do everything they need to in the Psychic phase, you are free to turbo boost on any turn you're not charging. Really allows them to book it anywhere they need to be. As far as your summoning goes, I would really never summon anything but daemonettes, hounds or plague drones. They all have mechanics that allow them to pretty assuredly get a charge off the turn after they are summoned, especially when you have mobile summoning platforms.

DarknessEternal wrote:People who think Forewarning and Grimoire don't stack are just following the rules.

"Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifiy a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

There's an order to apply modifiers. Applying a set modifier is the last of those things. It's too late to add 2 from the Grimoire after your save changes to 4++.

There's zero ambiguity in that rule.

Yeah that does seem to be the case. . .missed that until now. Oh well, that's why Cursed Earth is the new black

 DarknessEternal wrote:
People who think Forewarning and Grimoire don't stack are just following the rules.

"Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifiy a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

There's an order to apply modifiers. Applying a set modifier is the last of those things. It's too late to add 2 from the Grimoire after your save changes to 4++.

There's zero ambiguity in that rule.

We went over this a thousand times when screamerstar first showed up, forwarning isn't modifying a save because it is the save. So Grimoire still works on it.

There is even a thread in YMDC about this right now.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
People who think Forewarning and Grimoire don't stack are just following the rules.

"Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifiy a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

There's an order to apply modifiers. Applying a set modifier is the last of those things. It's too late to add 2 from the Grimoire after your save changes to 4++.

There's zero ambiguity in that rule.

We went over this a thousand times when screamerstar first showed up, forwarning isn't modifying a save because it is the save. So Grimoire still works on it.

There is even a thread in YMDC about this right now.

Derp. I'm waffling all around. That does make sense. This seems to sum it up nicely:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Multiple Modifiers

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).

For example, if a model with save 5++ has both '++2 save' and 'save 4++', its final save is 4++ (ignore ++2 save and set it at 4).

Thoughts ?

An additional save is not a set modifier, so no, you dont ignore the +2 to inv save bonus. Instead you have 2 saves, one of 5++ and one of 4++, both of which get modified to 3++ and 2++

I still think it stands that Cursed Earth is the new black. Forewarning is just icing on the cake if you wanna go fishing for misfortune with one of your Heralds.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
People who think Forewarning and Grimoire don't stack are just following the rules.

"Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifiy a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

There's an order to apply modifiers. Applying a set modifier is the last of those things. It's too late to add 2 from the Grimoire after your save changes to 4++.

There's zero ambiguity in that rule.

However, if I understand it correctly, cursed earth can stack with grimiore.... am I reading that correctly?

Cursed Earth most certainly works.

As does Forewarning. As CrownAxe pointed out, it's not a set modifier, it is a save all unto itself. Thus grimoire can still modify it. See the quote in my above post.

Cursed Earth does certainly work, however Forewarning is the definition of a set modifier. I don't belive it works any longer. That being said, I don't think the Divination tree is all that important any longer, as screamerstar (or the 7th edition equivalent) is not the shooting threat that it once was. I belive that its new role is super-durability. S 5 armorbane that is also AP 2 is nothing to sniff at, nor are 4 attacks each on the charge for each screamer. And with a 2++ re-rollable, they're just not going to die.

My idea for screamerstar light involves Be'Lakor (or having a Daemon Prince who is ML3. 80 percent of the time you'll be getting either shrouded or Invisibility, and psychic shriek is nice too). Also, Be'Lakor will get both 100% of the time.

You can cast shrouding to give a 2+ re-rollable jink save (which you of course don't care about jinking even if you flickering fire), or you can make them invisible, or you can use the Grimoire and Cursed earth to give the 2++ re-rollable.

I plan on using Daemons as allies so I'll be going the Daemon Prince route since I can only have 1 HQ slot, and I plan on running a Lord of Change as well. 2 FMC > 1 FMC.

If you're going Daemons as primary, you can have the best of all worlds. Be'Lakor, Fatey, Tzeentch Heralds on discs, and the Daemon Prince at ML3. Good times