Kings of War Fantasy Battle Game - 2nd Edition by Mantic Games Kickstarter (Live and funded)

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**judgedoug**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
In any case, I left appreciating WFB, but wanting to genuinely play KoW. I feel like the hobbyist in me could love collecting/painting a WFB army, but the obscenely quick, elegant, tactical play of KoW just really impresses. If you haven't seen it played, try to, because while we've all heard the "quick to learn/fast playing" line from other game companies, it is almost shocking how lean, but not shallow KoW ends up being.

The great thing is you can use your high fantasy WHFB models in Kings of War, as KoW is model-neutral. Use whatever you want!
I'm currently painting an army composed of Red Box Games' Helsvakt and Mierce Miniatures' Fomoraic models.

**Eilif**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So I thought I would share something for fence-sitters and those considering the game…

...What really struck me was that KoW was a game where I felt the nuance and depth was really happening in the movement phase (orders). Between the quick turns and movement really bearing the weight of a players complex decisions, I felt like the game really depicted what I would expect this scale of battle to look like. Considering both games were played at 2000pts of their respective points-systems, KoW also had a great table presence with what, at a glance, appeared to be twice the model count on the table.

WFB seemed to just drag down with players frequently arguing about minutia in terms of which models could and couldn't contribute to combat, etc... and movement seemed secondary to a surprisingly long "magic" phase. The Elf player also seemed to do the VAST majority of his work during the magic phase, and seemed markedly disinterested in worrying about positioning, etc.

You do a great job of laying ot the fundamental difference between the games, and largely between GW and Mantic rules. For a number of reasons, KoW really is a game that focuses on maneuvering. That is not to say that WHFB doesn't reward good maneuvering, but the Magic phase, interaction of various special rules, and other minutiae take much of the focus of playing GW rules.

The positive side of this is that WHFB factions have a flavor and uniqueness that plays out in the game more than KoW. However, I'll take streamlined tactical gameplay over game-slowing faction-specific detail any day. IMHO, the specificity of WHFB is the kind of thing that belongs in Warband skirmishes and RPG's, not company-level battle games.

**judgedoug**

Eilif wrote:

The positive side of this is that WHFB factions have a flavor and uniqueness that plays out in the game more than KoW. However, I'll take streamlined tactical gameplay over game-slowing faction-specific detail any day. IMHO, the specificity of WHFB is the kind of thing that belongs in Warband skirmishes and RPG's, not company-level battle games.

I dunno, several of the KoW army wide special rules add in a huge amount of flavor - all Undead being Shambling (and the Evil Dead magic), all Dwarves being headstrong, all Orcs having Crushing Strength, Men having Very Inspiring - that makes them play quite differently than other armies with literally no extra fiddly time added.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Update #12 Nov 20 2014

A little piece of history!

Yesterday we broke through the original Kings of War Kickstarter Backer number – which means our special backer goal has fallen!

We will now enhance the artwork to a whole new level of detail, and print a limited Kickstarter-only commemorative run of this brand new Map of Mantica and add it free to every pledge of Living Legend ($50) and up.

The reverse side of the map will be a poster featuring the new Kings of War 2nd Edition artwork.

Where are we going next?

The next phase of this campaign is going to be focusing in on new units – whether that be filling in the gaps in the existing armies, or adding new units to the army lists and making some new models.

Participation Time

The guys in the studio and the rules committee has been bashing ideas against each other for new units that we could add to the existing armies. We want Kings of War to be the stand-out fantasy game that makes people go “wow!” and we’re looking for new additions that make the army distinctly “Mantic”.

With Matt Gilbert’s help, we’ve posted up a list of the new units up for consideration over here on the Mantic Blog. Let us know which you like, which you don’t and what ideas you have in the comments.

Here’s a little snippet from the Dwarfs, Forces of Nature and Forces of the Abyss:

Dwarfs

- fliers (break out of the dwarfs-are-slow-with-guns stereotype)

- giant ravens and eagles suggested to fit the mountain theme rather than machines

- stone golem/giant thing "Iron Ancestor"? "Hall Guardian"?

- dwarf sorcerer/rune priest/earth/fire priests

- Jezzails/Siege Snipers/Long-rifles

Forces of Nature

- "Wild" elves

- war hawks/eagles

- witches

- caller of the elementals (inspiring minor hero - effectively an ASB)

- shrine of the elements zapping war engine - sylvan kin champion

Forces of the Abyss

- Evil humans

- beastmen

- Abyssal war-engines

- darkspawn (unit that comes with zap or can swap for breath)

- imps

We’ve not forgotten the existing lists either, and will be creating units to fill in the gaps in range at the moment – we’ll be adding each of these units free to their respective Mega-Armies so that they get better in value, and grow in points costs as well!

Here are some sneaky teaser images of the first few…

[teasers to ??? to bother cut and pasting)
]

And finally…
The name of the Kickstarter game is backer number, and Matt Gilbert has created these excellent Kings of War avatars to help us spread the word.
You can download them all here:

Download Kings of War 2 Avatar Pack (ZIP, 5mb)

Please help us spread the word – the more backers we get, the more stretch goals we’ll break, the more free stuff we can give you!

PS: Don't forgot to check out yesterday's Add-on Wednesday offerings for some great deals!
/

**Azreal13**

BEASTMEN!!,

But, you know, Mierce type aesthetic (ie brutal and feral) rather than GW style (ie alright but with some really derpy crap)

**judgedoug**

posted on the blog but I'll repost here

Kingdoms of Men should have arbalests/scorpions. That omission is holding the army back from truly being able to represent Romans through Medievals.

Beastmen should be in the Nature list and therefore Neutral! Not all beastmens are baddies. Plus "beastmen" can cover a wild array of things (and perhaps the unit should have options, like choose one of these "feral, +1 CS for xxx points; winged, unit has Fly, for xxx points; headstrong for xxx points; long-legged (ignores movement penalties) for xxx points; something else; something else, OR something else."

**squall018**

I would love for them to add beastmen to the abyssal or forces of nature armies. I have always wanted a beastmen army for WHFB, but never wanted to pay GW prices for a horde army. I would use it for both WHFB and KOW, but I would buy a boatload.

The new dwarf artwork is pretty sweet too!

**NTRabbit**

The blog also mentions the giant centrepiece units a lot of people have been hanging out for

http://manticblog.com/2014/11/20/new-units-for-kings-of-war-2nd-edition/

**Sabotage!**

Oh man, if they did some well executed evil humans in mail/full helms or plate/full helms, especially if in hard plastic, Mantic would see a ton of cash from me. Finding generic evil human troops is surprisingly difficult these days (well at least ones that look half decent and are proportioned like a normal human).

**Paradigm**

One of the comments on that post mentions Dwarf Bear Cavalry with steam-powered Rotary Cannons.

Mantic, sculpt it and they will come...

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I predict a bit of a surge from this,

but later a crash as people realise most if not all of this is not going to be made (or if It's made not in hard plastic).....

remember they've said they'll be limited in what they can do in this material in this KS

(longer term if they can do all that in decent material Brilliant)

**.Mikes.**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
What really struck me was that KoW was a game where I felt the nuance and depth was really happening in the movement phase (orders). Between the quick turns and movement really bearing the weight of a players complex decisions, I felt like the game really depicted what I would expect this scale of battle to look like.

Nailed it.

judgedoug wrote:

Kingdoms of Men should have arbalests/scorpions.

I read this as 'asbestos scorpions' and my first thought was, "....go on."

**BobtheInquisitor**

Eilif wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
dragqueeninspace wrote:

Why would they become the standard over the men at arms kit which is 33% better with twice the options? Yes they would be fantasy but they would be just as likely to not fit into the aesthetic of a random army as the historics.

Because Perry minis are not fantasy minis. They don't look like fantasy minis for a variety of reasons. They look dinky next to almost any plastic fantasy miniature. Their weapons lack that je ne sais quoi that makes fantasy weapons exciting; plus they are dinky. Their poses are boring; fantasy miniatures should ideally look ready to fight mythical beasts, but Perry minis are better posed for their more historically-accurate battle with dysentery.

Now, I haven't bought any of their most recent kits since the WOTR infantry let me down hard, so it's possible this new kit fixes all of those issues. If so, please let me know.

I agree that they would become the standard non-GW option based on being fantasy and radically more affordable than GW, and they were scaled to Mantic rather than perry, they would fit in better with a wider variety of fantasy minis.

That said, I disagree about the necessity of dramatic poses for rank-and-file fantasy minis. For heroes, I like something flamboyant, but for rank and file I actually prefer more subdued poses for both the look and the ease of ranking.

Asside from pose and size, I'd be curious what you didn't like about the WorR infantry. I don't own them, but they seem nice in all the reviews I've seen.

I'm pretty much a pose and size queen. With my eyesight, the overall shape and design aesthetic is what draws me to a mini, rather than crisp details or intricate sculpting. I'm also more of a modeler than a gamer, so a unit with essentially one build for ranking is the opposite of what I enjoy. Besides that, the kits are very well designed. The sculpting is easily on par with GW (for obvious reasons) and the pieces go together well. There are a lot of options that other people would probably find exciting, but it is impossible to model each mini in the kit into an attacking pose.

Truly, they are the Ferrari of minivans.

**Tanakosyke22**

Alright, I might be tempted to do something with Beastmen also now if that happens. I hope the rules will still be free on their website.

**edlowe**

Anybody else feel that this ks is a bit of a venture into the unknown? And I mean that in a good way.

I wasn't expecing the world wide campaign, especially as such an early goal. Then again you coukd say its an 'Over priced' goal to give away free units later.

I did think we would be seeing some new units to fill existing missing gaps but it looks like we maybe heading towards getting some brand new units and concepts to make the armies more 'mantic unique' (Dwarf eagle riders?)

Im not sure where this ks will end up but I do hope they won't forget the abyssals and give us the moloch units that many of us want.

Should be an interesting ride.

**RobertsMinis**

I think they should change Beastmen to Goatmen and do them with a medieval style.

**adamsouza**

RobertsMinis wrote:
I think they should change Beastmen to Goatmen and do them with a medieval style.

When you say beastmen I think of goatmen first and this guy second

I would be okay with either

**Eilif**

Very interested in evil humans and beastmen, but as others have suggested, only if it's in hard plastic.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I'm pretty much a pose and size queen. With my eyesight, the overall shape and design aesthetic is what draws me to a mini, rather than crisp details or intricate sculpting. I'm also more of a modeler than a gamer, so a unit with essentially one build for ranking is the opposite of what I enjoy. Besides that, the kits are very well designed. The sculpting is easily on par with GW (for obvious reasons) and the pieces go together well. There are a lot of options that other people would probably find exciting, but it is impossible to model each mini in the kit into an attacking pose.

Thanks Bob,
Seeing where you're coming from, your comments make alot of sense. As you point out, like most historical figs, Perry figs in general don't seem to be focused on dynamic action poses, but rather a mix.

judgedoug wrote:
Eilif wrote:

The positive side of this is that WHFB factions have a flavor and uniqueness that plays out in the game more than KoW. However, I'll take streamlined tactical gameplay over game-slowing faction-specific detail any day. IMHO, the specificity of WHFB is the kind of thing that belongs in Warband skirmishes and RPG's, not company-level battle games.

I dunno, several of the KoW army wide special rules add in a huge amount of flavor - all Undead being Shambling (and the Evil Dead magic), all Dwarves being headstrong, all Orcs having Crushing Strength, Men having Very Inspiring - that makes them play quite differently than other armies with literally no extra fiddly time added.

KoW armies definitely have some flavor in the form of a general rule or two to give an army a bit of a twist. Enough to differentiate an army, but KoW still has many instances where two races will have units that are near-identical. This really doesn't bother me. I have no problem with an elf on a horse and a human on a horse having relative parity, but some folks cant' stand it.

WHFB writers appeal to this kind of person and seem so obsessed flavor and differentiation that they create near-RPG levels of differentiation between units and then numerous special rules on top of that.

I didn't mean to dig on KoW, I just wanted to be realistic about the contrast in levels of differentiation and "flavor" between the two games. I'd rather have more abstraction and a cleaner playing experience than a crunchy ruleset with too much detail.

**GrimDork**

Looking over that full list of things they potentially want to add... I'd say at least half of it would just be bringing KoW to parity with WFB in terms of unit types offered per faction. There are some unique/unusual gems, however, like eagles/ravens for dwarfs and a slave unit for twilight kin.

**adamsouza**

I would like larger undead, like Undead Ogres.

Something beefier than an Ogre Zombie/Skeleton, like Ogre Revenants

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

I'm going to go with the working assumption that anything in Dungeon Saga WILL become a unit before long. They aren't a company big enough (yet) to ignore an already tooled mold for something like Undead Trolls.

**adamsouza**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'm going to go with the working assumption that anything in Dungeon Saga WILL become a unit before long. They aren't a company big enough (yet) to ignore an already tooled mold for something like Undead Trolls.

I was unaware as I didn't follow Dungeon Saga.

That troll will do nicely.

and I guess that means this is what we can look forward to for the Abyss

**squall018**

They are tooling all that stuff for DS in boardgame plastic. So I wouldn't assume that all of that will crossover to KOW.

**highlord tamburlaine**

I wouldn't be surprised to find rules for Dungeon Saga's figures in Kings of War (and vice versa, for that matter).

Board game pieces or not, zombie trolls would certainly fill an interesting niche in an undead army.

Plus, I can remember seeing quite a few people out there who padded their fantasy armies with Battlemaster figures back in the day! No different than that really.

**adamsouza**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to find rules for Dungeon Saga's figures in Kings of War (and vice versa, for that matter).

Board game pieces or not, zombie trolls would certainly fill an interesting niche in an undead army.

Plus, I can remember seeing quite a few people out there who padded their fantasy armies with Battlemaster figures back in the day! No different than that really.

My first Undead Army for Warhammer Fantasy had units made up mostly of Heroquest Skeletons and Zombies. I must have bought six boxes of Heroquest just to bulk up on baddies

**Nostromodamus**

Zombie Trolls will pull double duty for me as "Plague Molochs" to go with my Creature Caster beasties as allies for my Orc/Ogre tribe.

LOVE the way allies are handled in KoW

**GrimDork**

^Oh I know! It almost makes the fan-lists for non-mantic races unnecessary (though I still appreciate them), you can get a lot of counts-as mileage out of combining just a couple of different armies.

**Zond**

I'm in for a dollar. Not sure if I want the rules or models or even anything however plenty of time to make my mind up.

**adamsouza**

Zond wrote:
I'm in for a dollar. Not sure if I want the rules or models or even anything however plenty of time to make my mind up.

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to share you general apathy for the KoW2 KS

I just noticed that those all say Kickstarter Exclusive.

Still hoping they make nonhuman undead models.

Ogres have an entire army, aren't there enough dead Ogres around for necromancers to raise ?

**judgedoug**

adamsouza wrote:

I just noticed that those all say Kickstarter Exclusive.

Still hoping they make nonhuman undead models.

Ogres have an entire army, aren't there enough dead Ogres around for necromancers to raise ?

The resin versions were KS Exclusive; the boardgame plastic versions are not.

As for undead ogres, I posit that using the Allies rule, field them as Lesser Obsidian Golems as they have Shambling as well (so can be Dark Surged).