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it may be that I am not 100% sure of what it is. I am thinking its where you give cash up front for a small discount on upcoming items that the cash is going towards dev and production. I would think that if they didnt follow through with items the way the contributes wanted, the next time, the contributers wouldnt give. This would , I think, be a definate sign of disapproval. Would be nice if this sort of thing allowed contributers a more direct say.

 EVIL INC wrote:
. I would think that if they didnt follow through with items the way the contributes wanted, the next time, the contributers wouldnt give. This would , I think, be a definate sign of disapproval. Would be nice if this sort of thing allowed contributers a more direct say.

I'm not seeing how this gives people a 'more direct say' than just waiting for something to be released and buying or not buying it?

And also still missing how that shows that the company is listening to their customers. Either way they're just offering for sale whatever they want to offer for sale. The only difference a Kickstarter makes is that you pay for it before it has actually been made.

hmmmm.... Iikely im confused about kickstarters. Forget I mentioned them. lol
I'll hafta read up on them.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
GW despite what complainers think, don't hate us. They don't set out to make us nerd rage. They don't have a vendetta against the player base. They are trying to keep the game fresh. Innovation isn't always well received but at least they're freaking trying.

I like the direction of the game. Toned down power levels, model releases outside of codex time. I LOVE LoW in regular games. I love flyers. There's more good than ba and at least they aren't regurgitating the same old junk.

When we stop hyper focusing on negativity, and start smelling the roses. I'm very happy with their single model releases and not just doing it at codex time with these nids. Let's hope this is a trend.

I think the prices, not the stuff you're talking about, are causing fatigue. The company really needs to allow its entry level games be distributed more widely and stop gashing.

It's never been, in my mind (and I am definitely sure there are people who disagree) that the game is near as terrible as some whiners make it out to be. It has been the extreme sscalation in price. and it's not a SMALL thing. It wasnt incremental either. It was jarring.

Example: I used to be able to walk in and get an ork kannon for what, a $15 blister? Now it's a $46. $46? Yes.

Example: Obliterators went from $12 to $17 apeice or some such. And if you want to buy a Devilfish it's $38 instead of $25 but if i buy a VoidRaven... $80? TYet the Space Wold Flyer... $131?

Digest it for a minute. $131.

The space wolf flyer isn't $131...

It's $81, the page has a thing up for $131 for a flyer plus 5 termi's.

It's still not a cheap kit at all.

To me the bigger eye-opener is that back in 2007 Land Raiders were $55, now they're $75. At least the loyalist one got some extras, all three options are now in one kit, but the CSM one is identical to what it was seven years ago, and is actually slightly more expensive than the loyalist one ($76 vs $74.25). The Baneblade is another one, it was $90 seven years ago, now it's got some variants but it's $140, a 55% price increase in 7 years

I've been wanting to get a Knight, the models really are pretty cool. Had they been $90 like the Baneblade was in 2007, I'd certainly have at least one, maybe two or three. At $140, I've purchased zero.

Funny the op mentions the fresh new take that GW has taken. If you pick up a few old WD publications you can clearly see that they are merely rehashing old ideas. Knight Households? Yeah, those came out shortly after Titans hit the shelves for epic. Tactical Cards? Yeah, same thing. The new psychic phase is just a return to form, albeit FB style. Space Hulk returns? See where I'm going here?

If I had to guess, the next thing GW will do is a very limited Blood Bowl run, they'll bring out a "new" Knight model, probably the Castellan and they might even resurrect some other old ideas too.

I'm okay with GW going back to its roots, taking inspiration from past successes but I gotta admit, the drive to sell new models is very apparent. You have to remember though, that we are dealing with Englishmen and even at the best of times we can be a dreary sort.

 Vaktathi wrote:

I've been wanting to get a Knight, the models really are pretty cool. Had they been $90 like the Baneblade was in 2007, I'd certainly have at least one, maybe two or three. At $140, I've purchased zero.

IMHO, GW is not only pricing themselves out of the market through situations like you describe above, but they are also turning away potential new customers, and destroying the goodwill of existing customers...through what is basically greed and gouging.

@ OP... Well, good for you. That makes one of us.

1. the rules are more or less the same cluttered,unwieldy barely make sense and comprehensible

2. codex's still vary wildly from being terrible to being good

3. many units in various codex's are still useless

4. many older kits are not being updated or replaced, just new large offering's which are good but mostly meh

5. go out of their way to destroy FLGS's with ridiculous restrictions of selling their products

6. removed characters which don't have models (this is a hobby after all you know like kit-bash your own?)

7. pricing of their printed materials is just frankly insane and both insulting due to the grudgingly necessary purchase of them

8. moved their focus to essentially retail only

9. the hobbying aspect has generally dissapeared

10. dataslates/formations/supplements are more or less a page of rules which can be easily inserted into codex's but rather split them up and charge money for them

11. the fact that in australia when i purchase a codex (83$) and the rulebook (140$) im basically broke before even buying a model kit

12. constantly recycled fluff plus other ridiculous crap they have come up with

13. random rolls, tyranids,centurions, ripide etc

14. limited edition novella's that are absurdly priced

the list of grievances continues

but unfortunately for me i cannot continue with GW they were ok a few years ago but now it's unbeareable. for a stage i was just purchasing black library as i really like the heresy novels, however this is now out of the question with thier new ridiculous limited edition pricing schemes is frankly to much

Personally I can't be happy with the direction they are going when their competition are doing everything right.

I have very little interest in warmahordes but privateers magazine is exactly what I'd want white dwarf to be. Sure there are some ads but it is packed full of real hobby articles like terrain building, in depth painting articles, stuff for their RPGs, competitions and battle reports wort reading.

That right there is just super simple stuff that GW used to do but has completely abandoned lately.

It's really sad looking at the evolution of White Dwarf.

The first White Dwarves had tons of Dungeons and Dragons content, how to make your own dungeons and alternate experience systems and the like and reviews of new games by various companies. As GW came out with their own things, it turned into the primary way to disseminate new content for their own games, fluff, rules, battle reports, etc. Now it's just a lame preview catalog of whatever comes out next week.

In 5th and 6th edition i was an active player that played at least 1-2 games a week.

When 7th hit i was excited first but than i didnt want to go through the hustle to relearn the game at that time so i played some FOW and Mantics Deadzone.

When the space wolves codex hit i was really really excited. It released on my bday so my friends got me the flyer right away as a present. I was excited in that moment, too. I went and painted the flyer ASAP.

I have yet to play a game with the flyer and the codex because after initial excitement faded i completely lost my interest in the game. It could be a personal thing but i see that "burn out" on a lot of players in my group.
Most other available games (i play FoW, Deadzone, Dreadball, Dystopian Wars, WM/H) feel a lot better for me nowadays. I cant even tell what it is. Its certainly not their pricing because everyone has everything anyway nowadays and most of the time when someone has a birthday our group buys him that newflyer/newMC/newTank anyway if he cant afford it. Its maybe the hustle of having to discuss your list before you even started building one with your opponent to get an enjoyable game out of it (Yes or No to LoW or unbound or whatever). When playing the aforementioned other games i dont have to discuss anything besides point cost in advance which is convenient to say the least.

So no im not happy with the direction 40k took to be honest. I just started Bolt Action and tbh it just looks like the better 40k to me nowadays. GW lost me as a customer for sure i wont buy anything from them anyomre the competition is just plain better nowadays from a gamers perspective. Did they lose me completely? No, never! i love my space wolves and they will definitely see the table again eventually. But not because i enjoy 40k but because i want to see my space wolves on an awesome table going against another painted army. Who needs rules for that at all?

I've seen the burnout over the years. Thats part of the cycle or rotation of games that you see in shops. 40k will be big for a year or so, then fantasy, then bolt action or warmachine, then back to 40k again and so on and so forth.

Totally agree with theaddition of lords of war type stuff. before it was one thing to face someone who just had a cheesy list formed of "normal" stuff from codices, now with the addition of the super heavies and such, youare forced to tailor for them which in turn leaves you weak against an army that doesnt have it. It essentially removes the effectiveness and desire for a take all comers army.
I liked it better when they were optional and you talked with or discussed it before the game so as to be forwarned. Of course, thats just my opinion.

The "direction" of GW is at least an obvious push for more and larger models.
It is VERY exciting for those who like a more "Epic" look to 40k.
I think I have personally experienced the "burn-out" discussed with GW.
My friends keep getting distracted by "something shiny" of other game systems.
40k takes a great deal of time to get a nice force together, many of the new upstarts take little effort.
I find as focus moves away from 40k I drop it like a hot rock for new projects that become useable in a couple hours or immediately (thinking X-wing).

If you have a fixation on 40k the size and scope of it can be exciting but it is playing more and more like Armageddon: time to play a game is steadily increasing.

Not a fan of the direction of 40K/GW. Rules are a mess and prices are absurd. In 2006 I could buy a codex for tyranids for about $25 and have all the rules for a standard game of 40k for my army. Today the dex is $60+, dataslates $50+, FW rules for nids cost ?, now a bunch of new models with rules in the kit? or I have to buy the WD. So to cover all the rules for nids for a standard game of 40k could cost a couple hundred dollars. The dex alone is a huge increase in price in only a few years.

Then comes the issue of the nid dex itself. It is bland, unimaginative and still has many of the same problems the previous mess of a dex had (trygon tunnel anyone). Shouldn't much of the new kits (units) and rules in all these supplements have been in the dex itself? The dex was just released this year. What is next, separating the dex into the HQ dex and the Elite dex and Troop dex, etc and charging $50-60 for each? GW releases the dex with spore pods removed and then a few months later reintroduces the pod - to get the rules pay more.

Sure it is nice for nids, like any army, to get some attention and new models but the mess is of GWs creation. If a year after the release date of the nid dex a new unit or special formation was added that might work fine and would be better than the wait 4+ years for a new dex before anything new arrives. But releasing new rules along side the dex and a few months later new kits to make the army work better because the dex is done so badly is not something to celebrate. Players just have to pay a heck of a lot more to try to get the same play out of their army.

Aside from the cost of models, dumbing down of codexes, unbalanced rules, and the obvious money-grabbing, I'm liking the new Tyranid Realeases....

I am not happy with the direction GW has taken in the last ten years. And by direction, I mean absence of release of any new model for my army. And not even giving any of our unit access to anti-air.

I don't enjoy gw 'as is', to the point i refuse to buy or play their games/products. I have nothing against people who do buy, play and/or enjoy their products (when they act civilized and decent).

I just have this burning urge to point to the yearly financials *every year* and say: hey, something must be going wrong because the numbers keep going down while the cost cutting keeps going up.

I think the game is horribly broken. But then i'm not a big fan of drinking either, and lots of people do that. If you enjoy it, have fun.

 Torga_DW wrote:
I don't enjoy gw 'as is', to the point i refuse to buy or play their games/products. I have nothing against people who do buy, play and/or enjoy their products (when they act civilized and decent).

I just have this burning urge to point to the yearly financials *every year* and say: hey, something must be going wrong because the numbers keep going down while the cost cutting keeps going up.

I think the game is horribly broken. But then i'm not a big fan of drinking either, and lots of people do that. If you enjoy it, have fun.

Maybe that's my problem. I don't drink and one needs to be inebriated to enjoy 40k?

The game is broken as hell now. If they are trying to innovate, the only thing they succeed is in alienating all players of 40K. Imbalance is blatant. Cheese bs are everywhere. Unless there is a house rule to override all these or people showing sportsmanship, there is no way this game can be fun.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
I don't enjoy gw 'as is', to the point i refuse to buy or play their games/products. I have nothing against people who do buy, play and/or enjoy their products (when they act civilized and decent).

I just have this burning urge to point to the yearly financials *every year* and say: hey, something must be going wrong because the numbers keep going down while the cost cutting keeps going up.

I think the game is horribly broken. But then i'm not a big fan of drinking either, and lots of people do that. If you enjoy it, have fun.

Maybe that's my problem. I don't drink and one needs to be inebriated to enjoy 40k?

Beer and.....

......more beer!

bibotot wrote:
The game is broken as hell now. If they are trying to innovate, the only thing they succeed is in alienating all players of 40K. Imbalance is blatant. Cheese bs are everywhere. Unless there is a house rule to override all these or people showing sportsmanship, there is no way this game can be fun.

Well the OP is a fan of the more imbalanced aspects of the game (going by prior posts) so the negative stated here is a positive by another viewpoint.

bibotot wrote:
The game is broken as hell now. If they are trying to innovate, the only thing they succeed is in alienating all players of 40K. Imbalance is blatant. Cheese bs are everywhere. Unless there is a house rule to override all these or people showing sportsmanship, there is no way this game can be fun.

I've had no such issues and I play 3 different armies in a competitive meta. Sounds like you just gotta adapt to the current meta.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am not happy with the direction GW has taken in the last ten years. And by direction, I mean absence of release of any new model for my army. And not even giving any of our unit access to anti-air.

Most armies are lacking any real AA unit options.
Eldar get a choice to upgrade Dark Reapers, to make an expensive unit horrifically expensive. That's it. [Oh, and the flier, which is really good at AA. My bad]
But, the quad-gun is in the fortifications book, Stronghold Assault. I know I keep going on about it, but it is an option open to all armies.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

bibotot wrote:
The game is broken as hell now. If they are trying to innovate, the only thing they succeed is in alienating all players of 40K. Imbalance is blatant. Cheese bs are everywhere. Unless there is a house rule to override all these or people showing sportsmanship, there is no way this game can be fun.

I've had no such issues and I play 3 different armies in a competitive meta. Sounds like you just gotta adapt to the current meta.

Or, you know, your experience doesn't indicate anything outside of your own meta.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

bibotot wrote:
The game is broken as hell now. If they are trying to innovate, the only thing they succeed is in alienating all players of 40K. Imbalance is blatant. Cheese bs are everywhere. Unless there is a house rule to override all these or people showing sportsmanship, there is no way this game can be fun.

I've had no such issues and I play 3 different armies in a competitive meta. Sounds like you just gotta adapt to the current meta.

Or, you know, your experience doesn't indicate anything outside of your own meta.

From my experience most if the competitive metas will have the same things to look out for:

Riptide tau with missle broadsides
Wave serpent spam
Seer council
2++ reroll able save inquisition
Av13 spam necrons
Centurion star
Dread knight spam grey knights
Wyvern/ parking lot IG with pask

Etc etc.

Those are alive and well in all the metas I have lived in. I.e. Las Vegas, Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Florida. Etc

And that kind of goes contrary to the whole "forge the narrative" BS that GW spouts out, doesn't it? If you don't play competitive (not a competitive game, remember that line of gak?) then you'll get steamrolled by the skew lists with little or no chance of winning because you aren't doing a skew list yourself.

And that's supposed to be a good thing?

WayneTheGame wrote:
And that kind of goes contrary to the whole "forge the narrative" BS that GW spouts out, doesn't it? If you don't play competitive (not a competitive game, remember that line of gak?) then you'll get steamrolled by the skew lists with little or no chance of winning because you aren't doing a skew list yourself.

And that's supposed to be a good thing?

People who face cheese (as that was the initial above complaint) put themselves in that environment. Those builds occur at tournaments. If people don't want to face those lists or play in that environment don't go to competitions. There's plenty of room for people to make friends and plan "fluff battles".

It's pretty much like, if you only want to play flag football, don't go to your college and tryout for their full contact football team. (Talking American football here, not soccer).

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
And that kind of goes contrary to the whole "forge the narrative" BS that GW spouts out, doesn't it? If you don't play competitive (not a competitive game, remember that line of gak?) then you'll get steamrolled by the skew lists with little or no chance of winning because you aren't doing a skew list yourself.

And that's supposed to be a good thing?

People who face cheese (as that was the initial above complaint) put themselves in that environment. Those builds occur at tournaments. If people don't want to face those lists or play in that environment don't go to competitions. There's plenty of room for people to make friends and plan "fluff battles".

It's pretty much like, if you only want to play flag football, don't go to your college and tryout for their full contact football team. (Talking American football here, not soccer).

Bad news man, normal people at FLGS bring those kinds of lists too, not just to tournaments.

WayneTheGame wrote:
And that kind of goes contrary to the whole "forge the narrative" BS that GW spouts out, doesn't it? If you don't play competitive (not a competitive game, remember that line of gak?) then you'll get steamrolled by the skew lists with little or no chance of winning because you aren't doing a skew list yourself.

And that's supposed to be a good thing?

Or, you approach the game with a less competitive attitude, and play with players that hold similar views. I appreciate not everyone can do this, but plenty of people can, will and do. 40k is at its most broken when people go out of their way to break it, like by taking the best of everything rather than actually building to a narrative-driven army and game. This is the direction GW clearly want to push the game in, whether people like it or not.

To answer the question and general topic for myself:

I have been playing from around the start of 5th, through 6th and soon might look at 7th, or at least a hybrid of 6th and 7th. In that time, I have played in a couple of groups, one of close friend and another of mostly strangers, and through that period, I've found the experience to get more and more fun. In that time, I have consistently seen the game as nothing more than a chance to meet up with like-minded people, tell a cool story and laugh at the fortunes and misfotunes on both sides of the table. I've never built lists to win, or given thought to making an army stronger, because in the environments I'lve been playing in, there has basically been no issues with balance. The players that have won more are the ones that are more skilled, not the ones that build the best lists.

So yes, I like the direction 40k is going in, if not GW as a business, because most of the additions have made it more possible to enjoy the game in the way I like to. From being able to lob grenades to challenging characters, or from fortifications being part of the game to allies and now the very flexible Force selection rules, everything has catered to people who want to make the game their own, make it that much maligned word cinematic, and want to 'forge a narrative' (and I use the term without any irony)

I've always sais 40k is what you make it, and what I make it is a shared experience to tell a cool story and have a good time. I could be losing games 10 times a week and I'd still love it, because the result doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. As a group, we've never had any issues with balance because we've never gone looking for them, which is where so many of the issues come from. You need to trust the integrity of the players, and be sure to share with them and reach a compromise on what you want the game to be, but yes, 40k has only got better and better over the last few years.