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2014/11/08 12:02:21
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Slarg232 wrote: You know, on the subject of mechanizing the entire fast food process, what would happen to all the workers in that case?
Where would they go?
Soylent Green vendomatic machines regularly hire veritable swathes of people.
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There are some people predicting that a lot of knowledge jobs are going to start to be lost to computerisation, such as accounting and law.
This sort of thing is called increasing productivity.
It seems to me that it starts to fall apart when productivity is so high that workers are not needed to make stuff, and can't get the pay to buy the stuff or services being produced.
Countries with more expensive labor costs than the US have managed to hold on to the McJob, so my uneducated guess is that we don't have to worry too much about that yet.
2014/11/08 12:36:41
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Slarg232 wrote: While true, I'm talking about the biggest fast food business in the world suddenly not needing 80% of it's employees.
How is that meaningfully different than when almost all major car manufacturers became automated? Ford, GM, and Chrysler employed a lot more people before machines took over a lot of the work.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2014/11/08 12:43:53
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Slarg232 wrote: While true, I'm talking about the biggest fast food business in the world suddenly not needing 80% of it's employees.
How is that meaningfully different than when almost all major car manufacturers became automated? Ford, GM, and Chrysler employed a lot more people before machines took over a lot of the work.
I dunno.
First guess would be that those people still had a useful skillset (Manufacturing) rather than just needing work.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/11/08 12:49:56
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Slarg232 wrote: First guess would be that those people still had a useful skillset (Manufacturing) rather than just needing work.
Putting bolts on tires for eight hours doesn't seem radically better than making hamburgers for eight hours a day. It is more physically demanding but the thinking process involved is generally the same. There is a bit more risk as well, but they also made more money as well. Still, both are low process, repetition jobs.These aren't the people designing the cars or the manufacturing process. Even if we ignore that how are they going to find another job with that skillset since all the jobs that required that skillset have been replaced by robots?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/08 12:52:00
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2014/11/08 12:57:34
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Slarg232 wrote: First guess would be that those people still had a useful skillset (Manufacturing) rather than just needing work.
Putting bolts on tires for eight hours doesn't seem radically better than making hamburgers for eight hours a day. It is more physically demanding but the thinking process involved is generally the same. There is a bit more risk as well, but they also made more money as well. Still, both are low process, repetition jobs.These aren't the people designing the cars or the manufacturing process. Even if we ignore that how are they going to find another job with that skillset since all the jobs that required that skillset have been replaced by robots?
True enough
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/11/08 13:10:06
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Slarg232 wrote: While true, I'm talking about the biggest fast food business in the world suddenly not needing 80% of it's employees.
How is that meaningfully different than when almost all major car manufacturers became automated? Ford, GM, and Chrysler employed a lot more people before machines took over a lot of the work.
What happens is that as many of them who have the skills and resources possible try and transfer to something else, to try and make a living. Some will open businesses. Some will become destitute.
The problem is that once again, a potential source of jobs and income dries up. And the more areas that it happens in, well....
Kilkrazy wrote: It seems to me that it starts to fall apart when productivity is so high that workers are not needed to make stuff, and can't get the pay to buy the stuff or services being produced.
2014/11/08 13:46:07
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
d-usa wrote: And people will be willing to pay more for a non-automated service to still get that human touch.
That is why prostitution needs to be legalized.
Actually, no. Fully automatized sex would be much more pleasurable for people. That one Bruce Willis film did it...Total Recall? I can't remember. Sandra Bullock was in it too...I guess...where people just slip on a helmet and get stimulated. That's perfect sex for pleasure as it perfectly stimulates your very own brain in the way you like it the best.
Interestingly, Japanese car makers, who were first to roboticise their production lines, retained human assembly workers in a lot of areas because robots are unable to cope with problems or be creative about making further improvements to processes.
I agree. I am unsure what worries me more. The fact that most minimum wage jobs are usually designed for people in highschool, (such as fast food,) had protestors push this issue until the minimum wage was raised. That being stated, I am most worried that professions such as the services, manufacturing, and nursing will really be affected by this. Why should a nurse or a CNC machinist work for 14$ where I live when someone out in San Fran makes 15$ an hour to do something infinitely less complicated. Why should our veterans have gone through the wire, just to see that when they come home someone at a minimum wage job made way more than they did at their rank. (I am talking about lower enlisted here obviously.) I sometimes worry over the economic and moral state of America, if you read the news too much it seems as if the country is constantly going downhill. (That is a subject for another thread all together though.) I feel like this kinda relates to the whole meme about being a hypocrite, where someone wearing a fast food uniform upon hearing your a veteran or a (insert profession you worked hard to enter here,) talk and they go "Oh I was going to join the service but... I didn't want to wear a uniform or be told what to do. Now do you want a large side of fries with that meal?"
That is mostly just a personal tidbit though, don't hate me for it. I don't mean any real disrespect to people working in the fast food industry, it's just that the protesters acted as if they were entitled to something more that the rest of the working middle class/lower class wasn't. It felt like the rest of our working class had to accept this. I guess this is all personal conjecture though, and it really doesn't influence this discussion. (Now I know some white knight or some crud is going to go "If it doesn't influence why did you post it plox?!11! I simply posted it because I felt like it had to be said. Yet again, no offense intended. Though someone will surely tear it apart in debate I'm sure.)
Now moving on to more important aspects of this discussion, I am worried about inflation. While I don't think this will hyper inflate the economy, what is stopping someone who lives outside of San Fran coming in and doing a minimum wage job that anyone can get, and going to a cheaper area, milking the profits? IE: When workers who have main residence in my state of Virginia (the southwestern poor area,) but, they work factory jobs in Philadelphia, making bank due to this. (I won't get into this but, you guys surely can understand the point I am trying to convey.)
Still, while I doubt this is the true for this situation, it reminds me of when I was a kid in school and learned of Germany and bread in social studies/world history.
I guess that's all I feel on the subject really. I hope this doesn't break any rules, etc. I tend to avoid the moral discussions.
What's funny is that, nearly every day in my political science class, the professor exclaims how the economic disparity in the US is actually the greatest threat to the US. The top 1% controls far more of the total wealth in the US than the bottom 99%, and within the past couple of years, we've seen the "Middle Class" have it's share of the wealth and importance to everyday life shrink to nearly WW2 levels.
Of course, just how to "fix" the problem is where politics come into play, and we can all see how well that one's working out
What's funnier is that professor is mostly at or near that top 1%.
if mc donalds replaced every single worker with a robot, my confidence in the food would go up significantly...
I remember far too much of what people who work there actually do...
from my time working there of course...
not that i personally did anything to the food (though I saw it a lot)
wait, does having a fight with the sauce dispensing guns count as doing stuff to the food? we never served it after all...
oh god good times... I cant beleive I used to get paid to fool around, chat with kids my own age, huck ketchup off the roof, and occationally press a button on the cooker or assemble a burger and frites
FYi around here fast food pays 15-20 bucks, well above minimum wage, even at MC d's, so apparently when they need to pay more and can also afford to pay more, they certainly do pay more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/08 16:12:55
2014/11/08 19:20:57
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Slarg232 wrote: First guess would be that those people still had a useful skillset (Manufacturing) rather than just needing work.
Putting bolts on tires for eight hours doesn't seem radically better than making hamburgers for eight hours a day. It is more physically demanding but the thinking process involved is generally the same. There is a bit more risk as well, but they also made more money as well. Still, both are low process, repetition jobs.These aren't the people designing the cars or the manufacturing process. Even if we ignore that how are they going to find another job with that skillset since all the jobs that required that skillset have been replaced by robots?
Not to mention how the Union destroyed much of the ability to control costs.... Seriously, how is using a semi-motorized machine to put a door on for 8 hours a day worth 20-30 bucks an hour? VW Chattanooga is PROVING every day that that job isn't worth as much, and that they can get a non-union employee to do the same work for a bit less money, but with better benefits and treatment.
@Whembly, no she really isnt... 30 year trial lawyer, and she's now working as a professor at a community college. If you think she's in the top 1%, you've no idea where that top 1% is mate Seriously though, the top 1% people are the Walton family (Walmart), Koch brothers, Bill Gates, the Hilton's. Ya know, THAT kind of money.
2014/11/08 20:13:00
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Not to mention how the Union destroyed much of the ability to control costs....
I thought about mentioning the Unions but was afraid it might derail it to much, but yeah, their stranglehold on the industry is problematic.
Honestly, it may not be a bad discussion, because if you look around, there's a ton of unions that have strangled various industries at at least the local level.
I recall how nurses in Oregon went on strike for wages, they were asking for more money than actual doctors made per year, and they were already sitting at something like 50-60k/year.
Look at the various teachers' strikes. It may not be a good example, because teachers generally get gakked on every day of every year, and when the new budget rolls around, they get gakked on some more. But, how many of them would legitimately go on strike if it weren't for the unions "forcing" them to?
2014/11/08 22:23:37
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Not to mention how the Union destroyed much of the ability to control costs....
I thought about mentioning the Unions but was afraid it might derail it to much, but yeah, their stranglehold on the industry is problematic.
Honestly, it may not be a bad discussion, because if you look around, there's a ton of unions that have strangled various industries at at least the local level.
I recall how nurses in Oregon went on strike for wages, they were asking for more money than actual doctors made per year, and they were already sitting at something like 50-60k/year.
Look at the various teachers' strikes. It may not be a good example, because teachers generally get gakked on every day of every year, and when the new budget rolls around, they get gakked on some more. But, how many of them would legitimately go on strike if it weren't for the unions "forcing" them to?
Only for really bad things, or lack of promised things. The teachers at my old high school nearly did because the school was refusing to put any sort of raise in the contracts. They won in the end, and didn't even have to go on strike.
Unions can be bad if they go overboard, but are good when they focus on getting their members proper work conditions and help on negotiating contracts and alike.
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2014/11/08 23:13:53
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Unions can be bad if they go overboard, but are good when they focus on getting their members proper work conditions and help on negotiating contracts and alike.
Because so many college educated people are just completely unable to negotiate on their own, right?
This isn't 1900s Chicago.
2014/11/08 23:23:18
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Unions can be bad if they go overboard, but are good when they focus on getting their members proper work conditions and help on negotiating contracts and alike.
Because so many college educated people are just completely unable to negotiate on their own, right?
This isn't 1900s Chicago.
It is sometimes difficult to know what your rights and responcibilities are, and not everyone has a stong personality to stand up for themselves or others without support.
And collective negotiation is almost always more powerful than workers negotiating on their own.
You know, it's funny how the biggest opponents of union "abuse" tend to also be advocates of capitalism and the free market. Shouldn't belief in the power of the free market mean supporting unions? After all, a union is nothing more than a group of people getting together to efficiently market their services and secure the best sale price that the market will allow. And I can't see how belief in the free market is at all compatible with talking about how much an employee "deserves" to be paid for a job, since the fair price for labor is by definition the price that an unrestricted market decides on.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2014/11/08 23:41:27
Subject: Re:San Fran passes $15 Hourly Minimum Wage
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Nope. A union works against the market value of labor, its goal is to inflate the price of its members labor above and beyond what the market is.
Therefore, its by definition NOT what the fair price of labor is.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Nope. A union works against the market value of labor, its goal is to inflate the price of its members labor above and beyond what the market is.
Therefore, its by definition NOT what the fair price of labor is.
Surely if the market value of their labour is lower than what they're demanding, you can just fire them and hire other people to do the same thing for cheaper? Isn't that how a free market works?
If you're in a position where you can't afford for all your workers to up and leave, then their value is whatever they say it is. In the same way that if I'm starving, and somebody offers me a sandwich for a thousand pounds, if there's nobody else around to buy from then that sandwich is worth a thousand pounds. Monetary values are dictated by the market. Right?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
You can, assuming the Union doesn't strong arm people into not freelancing.
But even if the Union controls all the labor, they're not creating a new market. They're exercising a monopoly.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Nope. A union works against the market value of labor, its goal is to inflate the price of its members labor above and beyond what the market is.
And this is exactly my point: the union is part of the free market. If a group of sellers of labor decide that the best strategy is to form an organization and negotiate collectively with buyers of labor then that is a valid free-market strategy. And, like all participants in a free market, their goal is to maximize their own profits, not to settle for lower prices that help someone else's profits. Therefore the market price is what the sellers of labor and buyers of labor agree to, not your hypothetical price that you think the labor is worth.
Therefore, its by definition NOT what the fair price of labor is.
Only if you define "fair" as "the price that would exist in a restricted market where sellers of labor are banned from negotiating collectively" and assume that the fair price in a free market is the same as the price in a market which includes regulations that favor some individuals/businesses over others.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Grey Templar wrote: You can, assuming the Union doesn't strong arm people into not freelancing.
But even if the Union controls all the labor, they're not creating a new market. They're exercising a monopoly.
Incorrect. It would be more appropriate to say that they're forming an oligopoly to combat the inherent power of the employer as a monopsonist of their labour.
Seriously though, the top 1% people are the Walton family (Walmart), Koch brothers, Bill Gates, the Hilton's. Ya know, THAT kind of money.
