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Could not find a reference in the rulebook to what happens in this case, but given that a flyer is forced to move a set distance-most obviously from "crew stunned", but cant (there are units there for example), what happens?

Does it move the minimum more? the minimum less? is wrecked?

What happens?!



Or in an even more vauge occasion, a flyer that cannot hover is stck in such a position that there is no place at all within 18"-36" he can end his movement at due to a horde of models covering everything. what happens than?

It crashes and burns.


Resolve its demise accordingly.

Wrecked I think.
See Vehicles/fliers/Zoom
I'd move it as far as there is room and then have it crash there.

That sounds silly.

You move 28" but a blob of green skins is in your way...

What is causing you to crash?

The pilot had a heart attacking, Ork Psykieness, bad luck, Gork and Mork tried to high five you?

The rules are abstracted, you simply got outplayed or made a bad mistake within the context of the rules.

You can premeasure, so just choose to fly over them instead of onto them. No one wants to put an unstable expensive model on top of a bunch of other hand painted models. If you can't put your flyer anywhere but a restricted location, than it is dead.

Johnnytorrance wrote:
That sounds silly.

You move 28" but a blob of green skins is in your way...

What is causing you to crash?

The rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
That sounds silly.

You move 28" but a blob of green skins is in your way...

What is causing you to crash?

The rules.

He's right. It's RAW. If you can't place properly within Min/Max distance, then you're a pile of rubble on the ground. I imagine it's like you're flying over an army, and they all shoot up. No need to roll 6's with that volley. Theres a million ork rounds flying straight to your underbelly.

So, could someone clarify why, when you are unable to legally move the specific distance required (due to a stunned result setting an exact distance), you are required to stop short of the point instead of moving past it?

I'm going to go with... "Not a perfect rule-set"

Its actually one of the best ways to kill a flyer, stunning it forces it to move 18" (not further) in a straight line. If you can get anything in that area that makes it stops short its gone.

yeah, since a lot of things like manuvering, mid air collisions and so on are not taken into account, you have to be a bit abstract about it....


just picture that scene in indiana jones where sean connery makes all the birds fly up and into the engine of the plane...

Now picture it with grots or something.


but yes, if you cant move as you are required to, you crash and burn, you made a mistake, or your opponent madee a good move to make this happen

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its actually one of the best ways to kill a flyer, stunning it forces it to move 18" (not further) in a straight line. If you can get anything in that area that makes it stops short its gone.

But why do you stop short instead of continuing past the obstruction and placing the model on the far side?

Consider this tidbit



And this

Finally, a use case for that clause. Good find, col impact.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its actually one of the best ways to kill a flyer, stunning it forces it to move 18" (not further) in a straight line. If you can get anything in that area that makes it stops short its gone.

But why do you stop short instead of continuing past the obstruction and placing the model on the far side?

The rules are abstract. If you need a fluff justification, use your imagination.

Talar, trying to bring his vehicle under control after taking damage on the port nacelle, dives to pick up speed. As he follows the grounds contours, he noticed a horde of orks ahead. Too low to avoid their small arms fire by [BS hit on 6 rule], he
1) pulls up trying to get to a safe distance... Turn to page 83: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he plummets to his death.
2) dives at them, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 84: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he slams into the ground and blacks out as a huge choppa comes down.
3) continues on, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 85: The nacelle, already damaged, explodes as the foolish pilot of the too low craft decides to fly directly into the path of the orks fire. The wreckage falls harmlessly around the orks, who enjoy the impromptu BBQ.

If you don't have a nacelle and want the crew to be shaken, you blacked out as you bind the wound in your neck from a small piece of shrapnel or close your eyes in prayer to the Emprah in a moment of thanks for avoiding death and crash for that reason instead.

In the Flyer section:

"If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked."

So it is strictly RAW. If you use the skimmer rule that you move less but you move less than 18" you are wrecked.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its actually one of the best ways to kill a flyer, stunning it forces it to move 18" (not further) in a straight line. If you can get anything in that area that makes it stops short its gone.

But why do you stop short instead of continuing past the obstruction and placing the model on the far side?

The rules are abstract. If you need a fluff justification, use your imagination.

Talar, trying to bring his vehicle under control after taking damage on the port nacelle, dives to pick up speed. As he follows the grounds contours, he noticed a horde of orks ahead. Too low to avoid their small arms fire by [BS hit on 6 rule], he
1) pulls up trying to get to a safe distance... Turn to page 83: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he plummets to his death.
2) dives at them, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 84: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he slams into the ground and blacks out as a huge choppa comes down.
3) continues on, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 85: The nacelle, already damaged, explodes as the foolish pilot of the too low craft decides to fly directly into the path of the orks fire. The wreckage falls harmlessly around the orks, who enjoy the impromptu BBQ.

If you don't have a nacelle and want the crew to be shaken, you blacked out as you bind the wound in your neck from a small piece of shrapnel or close your eyes in prayer to the Emprah in a moment of thanks for avoiding death and crash for that reason instead.

You apply the rules.



And this



And if you still somehow wind up short of 18" then you apply

Not sure why you quoted my fluff explanation with a RAW post, but OK. I'm just supplying fluff explanations for RAW, such as why a 40k advanced machine gun fires... 3 rounds. "It's not three, it's a slew of which 3 are not guaranteed stopped by intervening terrain or ducked helmets. That's what cover/armour saves are for. The cover save can actually represent someone from being killed because they tripped on loose rubble too, or a brick falling from above and deflecting the bullet, etc. Forge the Narrative!

For RAW fascists though, "Can" and "must" are different words, so no love there anyway. Not an argument I'm making.

col_impact wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its actually one of the best ways to kill a flyer, stunning it forces it to move 18" (not further) in a straight line. If you can get anything in that area that makes it stops short its gone.

But why do you stop short instead of continuing past the obstruction and placing the model on the far side?

The rules are abstract. If you need a fluff justification, use your imagination.

Talar, trying to bring his vehicle under control after taking damage on the port nacelle, dives to pick up speed. As he follows the grounds contours, he noticed a horde of orks ahead. Too low to avoid their small arms fire by [BS hit on 6 rule], he
1) pulls up trying to get to a safe distance... Turn to page 83: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he plummets to his death.
2) dives at them, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 84: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he slams into the ground and blacks out as a huge choppa comes down.
3) continues on, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 85: The nacelle, already damaged, explodes as the foolish pilot of the too low craft decides to fly directly into the path of the orks fire. The wreckage falls harmlessly around the orks, who enjoy the impromptu BBQ.

If you don't have a nacelle and want the crew to be shaken, you blacked out as you bind the wound in your neck from a small piece of shrapnel or close your eyes in prayer to the Emprah in a moment of thanks for avoiding death and crash for that reason instead.

You apply the rules.

Spoiler:

A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassable terrain exactly as a Skimmer

And this

Spoiler:

Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous Terrain tests . However, if a moving Skimmer starts or ends its move in difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. A Skimmer can even end its move over impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the model on top of it, but if it does so it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.

If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it.

And if you still somehow wind up short of 18" then you apply

Spoiler:

If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.

Incorrect.
You have two "if a X is forced to end it's movement..." When talking about Zooming Flyers, one is more specific than the other.

It's wrecked - you have no permission to "slide" off.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Its actually one of the best ways to kill a flyer, stunning it forces it to move 18" (not further) in a straight line. If you can get anything in that area that makes it stops short its gone.

But why do you stop short instead of continuing past the obstruction and placing the model on the far side?

The rules are abstract. If you need a fluff justification, use your imagination.

Talar, trying to bring his vehicle under control after taking damage on the port nacelle, dives to pick up speed. As he follows the grounds contours, he noticed a horde of orks ahead. Too low to avoid their small arms fire by [BS hit on 6 rule], he
1) pulls up trying to get to a safe distance... Turn to page 83: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he plummets to his death.
2) dives at them, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 84: The nacelle, already damaged, gives out, the engines stall and he slams into the ground and blacks out as a huge choppa comes down.
3) continues on, trying to make it past.... Turn to page 85: The nacelle, already damaged, explodes as the foolish pilot of the too low craft decides to fly directly into the path of the orks fire. The wreckage falls harmlessly around the orks, who enjoy the impromptu BBQ.

If you don't have a nacelle and want the crew to be shaken, you blacked out as you bind the wound in your neck from a small piece of shrapnel or close your eyes in prayer to the Emprah in a moment of thanks for avoiding death and crash for that reason instead.

You apply the rules.

Spoiler:

A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassable terrain exactly as a Skimmer

And this

Spoiler:

Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either.

Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous Terrain tests . However, if a moving Skimmer starts or ends its move in difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. A Skimmer can even end its move over impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the model on top of it, but if it does so it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.

If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it.

And if you still somehow wind up short of 18" then you apply

Spoiler:

If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.

Incorrect.
You have two "if a X is forced to end it's movement..." When talking about Zooming Flyers, one is more specific than the other.

It's wrecked - you have no permission to "slide" off.

At BoomWolf and all...

This [VIDEO] battle report contains this exact situation where my dakkajet fell prey to this sad sad rule. Check it out... Green tide vs Iyanden


http://youtu.be/cPPQkS3U_uk


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you who don't care to watch...

Yes... the flier was wrecked as a result of being stunned.

Damn eldar trickery

It makes sense... the flyer is making a strafing run and suddenly he can't turn thus not being able to pull out of the dive... boom.

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Incorrect.
You have two "if a X is forced to end it's movement..." When talking about Zooming Flyers, one is more specific than the other.

It's wrecked - you have no permission to "slide" off.

Spoiler:

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to
be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar.
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then
the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the
game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in
what order the rules are resolved in.

Sure, if you want to ignore advanced vs basic, that's cool.
But it's not how the rules actually work, however.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Incorrect.
You have two "if a X is forced to end it's movement..." When talking about Zooming Flyers, one is more specific than the other.

It's wrecked - you have no permission to "slide" off.

Spoiler:

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to
be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar.
When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then
the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the
game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in
what order the rules are resolved in.

Sure, if you want to ignore advanced vs basic, that's cool.
But it's not how the rules actually work, however.

We use sequencing when we find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time, and that is directly per the rules.

They do t resolve at the same time, as they conflict. You can only resolve one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They do t resolve at the same time, as they conflict. You can only resolve one.

They both trigger at end of movement. As the active player you resolve them in the order you choose. The Sequencing rule directly handles cases like this one.

You can't invoke Basic versus Advanced anyway since both rules in question are being called at the level of Zooming Flyers.

And, they don't actually conflict. Each of those checks happen each time the flyer moves.

The rules are basically saying

At time X do Y if Z is true.

At time X do A if B is true.

Which is two separate triggers happening at the same time


For there to be a conflict the rules would have to say

At time X do Y if Z is true.

At time X do A if Z is true.


So we have two triggers happening at the same time for different reasons. We use the sequencing rules to resolve their simultaneity. The Sequencing rule directly allows for this.


Edit: Let's go into more detail as to what is actually happening. The resolution is as follows.

FLYERS AND OTHER MODELS


Zooming Flyer


Zooming Flyer


Moving Skimmers


So basically I move 18" and I am forced to place the zooming flyer on top of some enemy models. The move as skimmer rule is triggered at the Zooming flyer level and I move the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it, either flying forward past the problem or flying backwards to trigger the move less than 18" rule. I don't really have a choice I must take the path of minimum distance. If the minimum distance move sent the zooming flyer backward and it resolves as flying less than 18" then it is wrecked. If the minimum distance sends me forward then I do not wreck since I flew more than 18".

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They do t resolve at the same time, as they conflict. You can only resolve one.

They both trigger at end of movement. As the active player you resolve them in the order you choose. The Sequencing rule directly handles cases like this one.

You can't invoke Basic versus Advanced anyway since both rules in question are being called at the level of Zooming Flyers.

No, they aren't. One is a Skimmer rule, one is a Zooming Flyer rule. Which one is more specific to Zooming Flyers?

And they're definitely conflicting - if you resolve one, you can't resolve the other. This is because if you "slide", you weren't forced to end your move short. If you crash, you weren't forced to end your your move (because you've finished it).

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They do t resolve at the same time, as they conflict. You can only resolve one.

They both trigger at end of movement. As the active player you resolve them in the order you choose. The Sequencing rule directly handles cases like this one.

You can't invoke Basic versus Advanced anyway since both rules in question are being called at the level of Zooming Flyers.

No, they aren't. One is a Skimmer rule, one is a Zooming Flyer rule. Which one is more specific to Zooming Flyers?

And they're definitely conflicting - if you resolve one, you can't resolve the other. This is because if you "slide", you weren't forced to end your move short. If you crash, you weren't forced to end your your move (because you've finished it).

You are getting confused. See my edited post above.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Damn eldar trickery

I know right? Grrrr....