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So, some of you may have realized that the DA "battleforce" (Should have been called Ravenwing Battleforce) was recently pulled. Suspicions are it's getting a re-boxing, another model or two, and a much higher price. That's not the point, reinforcements have arrived for both of the DV forces, in the DV expansion pack.

Do you guys think this was a good or bad idea?

I think it was a good idea with a bad execution. Looking at whats on offer, it seems more like an attempt to shift poorly selling units than it does to actually expand the forces.

For example, deathwing knights. DV already comes with 5 termies, do they really need more? Meanwhile in the competitive side of things, the last time i looked in a white dwarf (granted was some time ago now) the only terminators i saw people fielding *even there* were hammernators.

With the balance i see between the two forces, i don't get how this is either a 'game expansion' or a 'competitive bundle'. So at the end of the day i'm going to say bad idea, which may be slighly mitigated if they contain stat cards and/or further scenario pamphlets in them. Otherwise may as well just keep pushing out the battleforces which are pretty much the same thing.

Just made the confusing mess that was the DV box set even more confusing and messy. Is it even possible to make a battle forged DA list with both boxes?

I think so... Tac squad as the troop choices... ah. No. You need at least another tac squad I think.

You can build a Belial facsimilie out of the Deathwing Command Squad box and he makes Deathwing a Troops choice.

Well I better grab the DA Battleforce my FLGS has in stock. It was one of the better BF if playing Ravenwing. The new one is stock full of bad models - it's clearly intended to shift stock.

 Dannyrulx wrote:
I think so... Tac squad as the troop choices... ah. No. You need at least another tac squad I think.

5 guys = 1 troop choice

But I don't think you can take special weapons in those 5 man units

Nope, you can't. (Apart from Combi's I think)

well its always easy to swap it out for a spare bolter or just pretend its one

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
But I don't think you can take special weapons in those 5 man units

You can do so.

At 5 men you can take 1 special/heavy weapon, and at 10 you can take one of each.

 Torga_DW wrote:
I think it was a good idea with a bad execution. Looking at whats on offer, it seems more like an attempt to shift poorly selling units than it does to actually expand the forces.

For example, deathwing knights. DV already comes with 5 termies, do they really need more? Meanwhile in the competitive side of things, the last time i looked in a white dwarf (granted was some time ago now) the only terminators i saw people fielding *even there* were hammernators.

With the balance i see between the two forces, i don't get how this is either a 'game expansion' or a 'competitive bundle'. So at the end of the day i'm going to say bad idea, which may be slighly mitigated if they contain stat cards and/or further scenario pamphlets in them. Otherwise may as well just keep pushing out the battleforces which are pretty much the same thing.

The problem with the DV units is that they're pushfit, so other than the basic bolter units, you're somewhat screwed. For example, what do you do if you want a cyclone or, as you put it, a hammernator?

The expansion looks like it provides the regular MPP units out of other sets (no new models that I see), which is just fine with me, as long as it's a discount off of buying the units separately.

I think the DV box is still a good price. You get a mini rulebook (which is worth SOMETHING, right?), some templates, and at least basic units that are usable. The units are also easy to assemble, there's nothign wrong with the Ravenwing bikes, and you do get some cool models, like the Hellbrute. The whole thing is only about $100 at most FLGS; subtracting the value of the rulebook (you gotta get one somewhere, somehow), it's just a cheap way to get into the game.

I think the Stormclaw box is a better bundle, as long as you want to play SW or Orks, as you don't run into the problem of having models that are not configured the way you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Windchild wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
But I don't think you can take special weapons in those 5 man units

You can do so.

At 5 men you can take 1 special/heavy weapon, and at 10 you can take one of each.

Generally speaking in the game, all 5-man squads can have at least one special weapon (like a plasma or melta gun); some 5-man squads are allowed one heavy weapon, while other squads are only allowed one heavy weapon (like a missle launcher of lascannon) per 10 models. Just check the list... it's pretty specific and clear

Talys wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
I think it was a good idea with a bad execution. Looking at whats on offer, it seems more like an attempt to shift poorly selling units than it does to actually expand the forces.

For example, deathwing knights. DV already comes with 5 termies, do they really need more? Meanwhile in the competitive side of things, the last time i looked in a white dwarf (granted was some time ago now) the only terminators i saw people fielding *even there* were hammernators.

With the balance i see between the two forces, i don't get how this is either a 'game expansion' or a 'competitive bundle'. So at the end of the day i'm going to say bad idea, which may be slighly mitigated if they contain stat cards and/or further scenario pamphlets in them. Otherwise may as well just keep pushing out the battleforces which are pretty much the same thing.

The problem with the DV units is that they're pushfit, so other than the basic bolter units, you're somewhat screwed. For example, what do you do if you want a cyclone or, as you put it, a hammernator?

The expansion looks like it provides the regular MPP units out of other sets (no new models that I see), which is just fine with me, as long as it's a discount off of buying the units separately.

I think the DV box is still a good price. You get a mini rulebook (which is worth SOMETHING, right?), some templates, and at least basic units that are usable. The units are also easy to assemble, there's nothign wrong with the Ravenwing bikes, and you do get some cool models, like the Hellbrute. The whole thing is only about $100 at most FLGS; subtracting the value of the rulebook (you gotta get one somewhere, somehow), it's just a cheap way to get into the game.

I think the Stormclaw box is a better bundle, as long as you want to play SW or Orks, as you don't run into the problem of having models that are not configured the way you want.

This. I took one look at the new sets and thought "Why?" The DV Chaos set seems okay, but the DA one is pure garbage. It's also more expensive than the DV set was.

how is it garbage? Even regular marines can buy the set and use it - ravenwing command squad as regular command squad on bikes (the main ingredient for CM bike deathstar); deathwing knights as THSS terminators with baroque looking thunder hammers, and nephilim as much better looking and actually aerodynamic stormtalon

 Sir Arun wrote:
how is it garbage? Even regular marines can buy the set and use it - ravenwing command squad as regular command squad on bikes (the main ingredient for CM bike deathstar); deathwing knights as THSS terminators with baroque looking thunder hammers, and nephilim as much better looking and actually aerodynamic stormtalon

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Angels-DV to show what I'm referencing. $140 for two units you will probably never use. DW command squad is $50, RW command Squad is $60, and the Flyer is $80. Yeah it's a savings but you will most likely never use all units at once. Most mix DA armies suck, so a RW or DW army would only use one of the units, and the flier is utter garbage. Yeah, you could proxy it as a Storm Talon, EXCEPT the Storm Talon is cheaper, has a shorter length that could affect LOS, and honestly why?

Seems to me they have been flooding the market with terminators. of course, if you dont have any, you might someday use it but with terminaters seeming to come out in all these sets, most players have spares and likely dont really use the ones they Do have already. the flyer...Cant speak for it as I dont play DA.
Bikes...They can be useful to players who have been getting the ones from the DV boxes and want more uniform bikes to keep the image up in bulking out their bike squads.

So I give it a thumbs downbecause even if the flyers was good, it would be cheaper to just buy it and the bikes without having to spend $ on the termies, you likely wont use or need.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Seems to me they have been flooding the market with terminators. of course, if you dont have any, you might someday use it but with terminaters seeming to come out in all these sets, most players have spares and likely dont really use the ones they Do have already. the flyer...Cant speak for it as I dont play DA.
Bikes...They can be useful to players who have been getting the ones from the DV boxes and want more uniform bikes to keep the image up in bulking out their bike squads.

So I give it a thumbs downbecause even if the flyers was good, it would be cheaper to just buy it and the bikes without having to spend $ on the termies, you likely wont use or need.

Half the stuff it offers, you could get cheaper off eBay or recasters. Also, it ain't likely someone would use termies and bikes in the same army. I mean you could, but most armies I've seen either have Tac squads and termies or Tac squads and bikes, not usually both. Also, yeah, the flier is garbage shame something so pretty is next to useless.

Getting stuff cheaper from Ebay or recasters is not much of a point.

Second hand and fake products by nature cost less than the original.

It's as shame really... What abut the Chaos one? I've never played chaos so... yeah?

A flyer that each turn shoots 5 S6 AP4 shots at BS4 + 2 S6 AP4 Shots at tl-BS4 + 3 S5 AP4 shots at tl-BS4 and optionally turns any weapon destroyed into immobilized for additional hullpoint damage (and a 33% chance to insta-kill any zooming flyer) is pretty good in my book.

And all of the above at BS5 against non-flyers.

The Nephilim is a beast. People make the mistake about comparing it pricewise to the Stormraven (which is undercosted and should be around 220 points base IMO) or the Necron ones which are 2 editions old and were priced as fast skimmers. I compare it against other flyers like the Tyranid, Eldar and Tau ones. A Stormtalon is indeed the superior flyer, armed with the Skyhammer Missile Launcher is 55 points cheaper, both have the same AV, both have BS5 against non-flyers, see table below:

Target: AV12 flyer

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.55 hits, 0.59 HP (pen) due to rending

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2 hits, 0.666 HP

Total: 1.26 HP


Target: AV12 flyer

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 3.33 hits, 0.55 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.77 hits, 0.3 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: -

Total: 0.85 HP

Stormtalon: 1 Nephilim Jetfighter: 0


Target: AV10 flyer

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.55 hits, 1.78 HP

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2 hits, 1.33 HP

Total: 3.11 HP


Target: AV10 flyer

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 3.33 hits, 1.67 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.77 hits, 0.89 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: 2.66 hits, 0.88 HP

Total: 3.45 HP

Stormtalon: 1 Nephilim Jetfighter: 1


Target: AV11 flyer

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.55 hits, 1.18 HP

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2 hits, 1 HP

Total: 2.18 HP


Target: AV11 flyer

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 3.33 hits, 1.10 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.77 hits, 0.59 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: 2.66 hits, 0.44 HP

Total: 2.13 HP

Stormtalon: 2 Nephilim Jetfighter: 1

Apply the same win/loss ratios towards AV10, 11 and 12 armor, with everyone getting an increase in BS with the Stormtalon additionally having a small chance to also take on AV13, and also a tiny chance to take on AV14, against both of which the Nephilim is useless unless it takes the TL-Las. But the TL-Las is worse than the Avenger Megabolter against all AV values upto and including AV 12 according to my math, so I dropped it. I havent done the math with TL-Las or Typhoon Stormtalons, though I'm sure they'd do even better but at higher price.


Target: T4, 4+ sv. infantry

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.88 hits, 0.64 rending kills and 2.586 kills

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2.5 hits, 2.08 kills

Total: 5.32 kills or 2.19 MEQ kills or 1.19 TEQ kills (assuming 5+ inv. save)


Target: T4, 4. sv infantry

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 4.16 hits, 3.47 kills

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.94 hits, 1.62 kills

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: 2.92 hits, 1.94 kills

Total: 7.03 kills; or 2.34 MEQ kills or 1.17 TEQ kills

Stormtalon: 3 (the +1 for being effective against AV13 and AV14) Nephilim Jetfighter: 2 (the +1 for faring better against infantry and MEQ and arguably same against TEQ (5++) and better against TEQ (3++)

Okay... Just something I want to put out there...

Remember: That the Deathwing Knight Kit can also make Deathwing Terminators, as well as Deathwing Command Squad. So if you want you CAN make additional shooty terminators

the Ravenwing Command Squad CAN be used to make the command squad, Or Ravenwing Black Knights, Or Ravenwing Bikers.

and the Darktalon kit can make the Nephilum.

This is actually a far more versatile "expansion" then if you just take it at face value. And I agree with Sir Arun, The Nephilum doesn't get its due.

I've also done the math. Your practically getting the Bikes for free.

And if your worried about making a "Battleforged" Army out of Dark Vengence. You just use the Chaptermaster as a proxy for Azareal, who makes the Bikes and the Terminators troops.

Talys wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Windchild wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
But I don't think you can take special weapons in those 5 man units

You can do so.

At 5 men you can take 1 special/heavy weapon, and at 10 you can take one of each.

Generally speaking in the game, all 5-man squads can have at least one special weapon (like a plasma or melta gun); some 5-man squads are allowed one heavy weapon, while other squads are only allowed one heavy weapon (like a missle launcher or lascannon) per 10 models. Just check the list... it's pretty specific and clear

It's a memory of 5th (and possibly earlier) edition.

Back then, you could only take heavy/special weapons if you had a full, 10 man squad.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Getting stuff cheaper from Ebay or recasters is not much of a point.

Second hand and fake products by nature cost less than the original.

When the point is why do people think the bundle is gak, yes, this point is relevant. It takes things that would probably never be mixed in a normal army and bundles them together.

I think it's fine. It's obvious GW is simply trying to move some of its low-selling units, but since there is an actual discount applied, it at least gives people the chance to purchase some units they want and get the crap units for very little cost. I suppose this set is only bad from the perspective of beginners who don't know any better and buy a box full of sub-par units.

But what boggles my mind is that GW seems to be recognizing that these models aren't selling, but at the same time can't seem to understand the actual REASON they aren't selling (i.e. the rules suck).

Honestly, sometimes it seems like they enjoy hampering themselves.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Spoiler:

A flyer that each turn shoots 5 S6 AP4 shots at BS4 + 2 S6 AP4 Shots at tl-BS4 + 3 S5 AP4 shots at tl-BS4 and optionally turns any weapon destroyed into immobilized for additional hullpoint damage (and a 33% chance to insta-kill any zooming flyer) is pretty good in my book.

And all of the above at BS5 against non-flyers.

The Nephilim is a beast. People make the mistake about comparing it pricewise to the Stormraven (which is undercosted and should be around 220 points base IMO) or the Necron ones which are 2 editions old and were priced as fast skimmers. I compare it against other flyers like the Tyranid, Eldar and Tau ones. A Stormtalon is indeed the superior flyer, armed with the Skyhammer Missile Launcher is 55 points cheaper, both have the same AV, both have BS5 against non-flyers, see table below:

Target: AV12 flyer

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.55 hits, 0.59 HP (pen) due to rending

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2 hits, 0.666 HP

Total: 1.26 HP


Target: AV12 flyer

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 3.33 hits, 0.55 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.77 hits, 0.3 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: -

Total: 0.85 HP

Stormtalon: 1 Nephilim Jetfighter: 0


Target: AV10 flyer

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.55 hits, 1.78 HP

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2 hits, 1.33 HP

Total: 3.11 HP


Target: AV10 flyer

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 3.33 hits, 1.67 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.77 hits, 0.89 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: 2.66 hits, 0.88 HP

Total: 3.45 HP

Stormtalon: 1 Nephilim Jetfighter: 1


Target: AV11 flyer

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.55 hits, 1.18 HP

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2 hits, 1 HP

Total: 2.18 HP


Target: AV11 flyer

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 3.33 hits, 1.10 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.77 hits, 0.59 HP

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: 2.66 hits, 0.44 HP

Total: 2.13 HP

Stormtalon: 2 Nephilim Jetfighter: 1

Apply the same win/loss ratios towards AV10, 11 and 12 armor, with everyone getting an increase in BS with the Stormtalon additionally having a small chance to also take on AV13, and also a tiny chance to take on AV14, against both of which the Nephilim is useless unless it takes the TL-Las. But the TL-Las is worse than the Avenger Megabolter against all AV values upto and including AV 12 according to my math, so I dropped it. I havent done the math with TL-Las or Typhoon Stormtalons, though I'm sure they'd do even better but at higher price.


Target: T4, 4+ sv. infantry

Stormtalon fires TL-Assault Cannon: 3.88 hits, 0.64 rending kills and 2.586 kills

Stormtalon fires Skyhammer ML: 2.5 hits, 2.08 kills

Total: 5.32 kills or 2.19 MEQ kills or 1.19 TEQ kills (assuming 5+ inv. save)


Target: T4, 4. sv infantry

Nephilim fires Avenger Mega Bolter: 4.16 hits, 3.47 kills

Nephilim fires tl-Blacksword Missiles: 1.94 hits, 1.62 kills

Nephilim fires tl-Heavy Bolter: 2.92 hits, 1.94 kills

Total: 7.03 kills; or 2.34 MEQ kills or 1.17 TEQ kills

Stormtalon: 3 (the +1 for being effective against AV13 and AV14) Nephilim Jetfighter: 2 (the +1 for faring better against infantry and MEQ and arguably same against TEQ (5++) and better against TEQ (3++)

Except the Storm Talon should get an additional +1 for being 55 points cheaper. That is a HUGE point difference, considering that the Nephilim does what the Storm Talon does, but costs almost as much as the Storm Raven. And the fact that it can't touch AV 13/14 is also HUGE for a 190 point model. Also, add in the fact that due to it's low AV, the 190 point paper crane will be jinking half the time. And I'm not sure the Nephilim gets an additional +1 for being better against infantry, as again, the slight kill increase does not make up for the point sink.

Trust me, the HB and the Weapon Destroyed into Immobilized due not make up for the point difference. They even removed Missile Lock (really? nerf it more?) in the most recent FAQ. If this thing were reduced even slightly or its missiles given the same AP and S as Hellstrike (or whatever the BA have), I would LOVE to take this thing. As it is, its not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ralis wrote:
Okay... Just something I want to put out there...

Remember: That the Deathwing Knight Kit can also make Deathwing Terminators, as well as Deathwing Command Squad. So if you want you CAN make additional shooty terminators

the Ravenwing Command Squad CAN be used to make the command squad, Or Ravenwing Black Knights, Or Ravenwing Bikers.

and the Darktalon kit can make the Nephilum.

This is actually a far more versatile "expansion" then if you just take it at face value. And I agree with Sir Arun, The Nephilum doesn't get its due.

I've also done the math. Your practically getting the Bikes for free.

And if your worried about making a "Battleforged" Army out of Dark Vengence. You just use the Chaptermaster as a proxy for Azareal, who makes the Bikes and the Terminators troops.

DV shooty termies run about $20 on eBay, same as a 3 man squad of bikes, so that's not really a good point. Again, from earlier, most people won't need one or the other, so itreally is a waste to include the DW Command Squad with the RW Command Squad.

holy hell youre absolutely right. they DID nerf the flyer even further in the faq. along with removing the darkshroud's stealth. the hells wrong with gw

I do think it makes for a tons more beautiful model than the stormtalon, though

The Crimson Slaughter set is decent enough...

Termies + a Land Raider for delivering them. Granted the CSM Termie kit itself is awful due to it missing numerous options & its inability to properly kit-out your squad, but mark these guys Khorne, slap 'em in their party wagon and they should wreck something tasty!

The 5 Raptors/Talons can either build a small suicide squad, or else be turned into Talons which really shine when you add in/add them onto a Daemons force. (MoT + Grimoire = 2++ unit!)

It's only too bad that you only get 5 Cultists... if GW would've given us 10, the box would have been quite good actually!

Well, you got 20 of them in DV already, and this is set as an "expansion" to it.

Quite silly though, given that the DA army is not a legal army even with the "expansion"...(and the only DA battleforce WAS as you could build the speeder as samael, and have two minimal biker teams)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, you got 20 of them in DV already, and this is set as an "expansion" to it.

Quite silly though, given that the DA army is not a legal army even with the "expansion"...(and the only DA battleforce WAS as you could build the speeder as samael, and have two minimal biker teams)

Why does GW hate DA?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sir Arun wrote:
holy hell youre absolutely right. they DID nerf the flyer even further in the faq. along with removing the darkshroud's stealth. the hells wrong with gw

I do think it makes for a tons more beautiful model than the stormtalon, though

Oh absolutely, it's amazing. It's just too bad its worthless

They FAQed the missile lock out right away when the codex came out. At the time it only effected scatter distances, while the nephilum didn't have blast templates. so was probably a left over from earlier versions of the rules.

I like my Nephilum, but I agree that its overcosted for what it does, especially compared to the far to similar Stormtalon.