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It feels like their set up is intentionally designed to slip these charges under the net without clarifying them to the customer. The hope being that they can get free kits out of it for use in later projects, or worse, cash in the bank, worse again, the miniatures in their back pockets.

The whole operation feels like an attempt to dupe people out of money. Very disconcerting.

At least they caught their mistake (or "mistake", whatever the case may be) in this case.

It does strike me as one of the companies you need to be very careful when dealing with.

Moff - I'm glad that they dropped the charge, though the cynic in me thinks that that's how they run the business - sneak in unnecessary charges and fineprint and drop them when spotted.

I'd have assumed that they'd have a bin full of Rhino parts and known that the launcher isn't often used, so would also have assumed that the conversion budget would be an "up to", on the premise that they'd charge the full amount if they needed to buy the kits, but would try and source them from stock. The flat rate reads that they'd charge the full amount even if they didn't need to buy anything. Because realistically at the quote stage they can't know what they'll have in stock at the time the comission comes in, it makes bad business sense to reserve the parts before the deposit, and an ability to see into the future to quote for the kits before the comission is on their assembly desk.

But still, at least it's sorted in your case

 Sidstyler wrote:
At least they caught their mistake (or "mistake", whatever the case may be) in this case.

They didn't catch it, it was pointed out to them..

Well...it did get fixed at least.

IMO the problem here was that the OP accepted the charge to begin with, there is no cloak and dagger here, it is right there in the open. This is again what i stated before, when you asked how much for X, and thy said 60, the answer should have been "No Thanks" or Use alternative parts or what ever. Not Ok here is my money, and then have second thoughts about this. It really surprises me that people conduct their business the way they show on Dakka Dakka.

xxvaderxx wrote:
IMO the problem here was that the OP accepted the charge to begin with, there is no cloak and dagger here, it is right there in the open. This is again what i stated before, when you asked how much for X, and thy said 60, the answer should have been "No Thanks" or Use alternative parts or what ever. Not Ok here is my money, and then have second thoughts about this. It really surprises me that people conduct their business the way they show on Dakka Dakka.

Unless, you know, BTP themselves admit it's a mistake. At that point I think it's safe to say all blame can be removed from the OP because, as we've covered, BTP have themselves said they where at fault.

 jonolikespie wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
IMO the problem here was that the OP accepted the charge to begin with, there is no cloak and dagger here, it is right there in the open. This is again what i stated before, when you asked how much for X, and thy said 60, the answer should have been "No Thanks" or Use alternative parts or what ever. Not Ok here is my money, and then have second thoughts about this. It really surprises me that people conduct their business the way they show on Dakka Dakka.

Unless, you know, BTP themselves admit it's a mistake. At that point I think it's safe to say all blame can be removed from the OP because, as we've covered, BTP have themselves said they where at fault.

No it isnt, because btp did it to show good will(which is actually bs), they could have just as well said no and they would still have not deceived the op and would still have been fair game. That is a situation the OP got him self into.

1- Op had perfect knowledge of the conversion budget TOS
2- The Op had perfect knowledge of the how much he was being asked for the conversion.
3- The OP accepted the TOS and the Charges.
4- The OP wrote to btp with a concern regarding the TOS and The money Asked
5- BTP offered to wave the charges. (with a bs excuse) to keep the customer happy.

It could all have been addressed at 2.5 but the op didnt.

xxvaderxx wrote:
No it isnt, because btp did it to show good will(which is actually bs), they could have just as well said no and they would still have not deceived the op and would still have been fair game. That is a situation the OP got him self into.

There seems to be some confusion. BTP didn't need to buy any kits for the parts needed for the OP, because BTP already had them in their "wall" or whatever, probably from previously bought kits on earlier commissions... you know, that whole "keeping costs down for customers" thing they have going. So, when the OP logged his conversion request, the quote should have been $0, not $60. However, they just charged the going rate on the assumption that they'd need the whole kit and didn't think twice about checking. If it was a genuine "mistake" then it's still malpractice via negligence that leaves the paying customer $60 out of pocket. If not, then it's theft, plain and simple. Does that look like "good will" or "fair game"? Hmm?

"benefits other customers" I think was the wording.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
"benefits other customers" I think was the wording.

The rule is, jam yesterday, and jam to-morrow, but never jam today. :p

The Auld Grump

 M0ff3l wrote:

I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Painting a single model like a space marine, even to a high degree of detail, should be done in a single day. Sending a photo of the sample via e-mail is virtually instantaneous. Even with differences of opinion, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to end up with a satisfactory representation. Then, the rest of the project is painted to the same standard, and the project is finished.

Painting the whole project before submitting for the customer's review is a gamble. If the customer is happy, then you've saved some time (like a day or two for project delivery). If the client is unhappy, the company has dramatically increased the time for delivery as the changes have to be made to the entire project.

Cheers on calling them out on that Moff. Ugh, that's pretty shifty though.

Saldiven wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

I know that I will get what I want because I sent them 6 pages of instructions and examples of how to paint my models. When they send me pictures and I feel like they did not follow my orders I can get it changed for free, that is one of their policies... That way instead of doing test models, sending pics to the client, waiting for response etc, they work way more efficient.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.

Painting a single model like a space marine, even to a high degree of detail, should be done in a single day. Sending a photo of the sample via e-mail is virtually instantaneous. Even with differences of opinion, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to end up with a satisfactory representation. Then, the rest of the project is painted to the same standard, and the project is finished.

Painting the whole project before submitting for the customer's review is a gamble. If the customer is happy, then you've saved some time (like a day or two for project delivery). If the client is unhappy, the company has dramatically increased the time for delivery as the changes have to be made to the entire project.

Especially given the size of BTP this should just be part of the process. Presumably no painter is working on just one project at a time, sample models go in the 'sample tray', some intern photographs them and sends them off to the client, while in progress projects continue. It literally wouldn't waste any time other than removing that test model from the batch painting conveyor belt.

Hey Moff, as a chronic lurker, I want to say thanks for continuing to post updates. I am always on the edge of getting models painted by a service (so far I have always been too cheap), and this kind of info is very valuable for me.

I will say, the thing that strikes me about the Havoc launcher cost is that (iirc) in your original reply to the quote, you pointed out to the staff member preparing the quote that it was more expensive than you were expecting. I'm surprised they didn't take a second look at that point and figure out the mistake.

*edit: LETTERS FOR THE SPELLING GOD!

 M0ff3l wrote:

I will admit, this whole thing would have been easier if I actually had an entire project from start to finish to review. But it was a loss/loss situation for me, in Tenebres thread I was being called out for "lying" etc because I wasnt posting proof of my project with BTP. When I said I would post the entire project with a review of the entire process people said I would just paint them myself or whatever. So I made the thread. Now people blame me for posting it without results and all I can do is refer them back to the people hating on me in Tenebres thread. This alone has really shown me that I cant please people with this thread and it isnt being appreciated.

Seriously mate. Names.

"People" is useless. The posters on this board are not a hivemind.

I'm the one who kept calling you out to show proof (based on your repeated skepticism and calling of Tenebre to show "proof" that you'd find acceptable.

Eventually you started this thread. I've posted like 4 times total in it in total now - including this post. No posts of mine have been offensive or derogatory towards anyone, including BTP. I've posted a kudos to yourself for manning up and starting it, one question to Winterdyne about his Dredd-Arbites, one question about the conversion policy, and this post.

I still feel that you have a moral obligation to follow through with your proof right to the end. You'll have to ignore the bs in this thread order to prove that you're not full of bs yourself. You wanted to champion their painting services, so follow through.


I also think others might need to try some self-moderation to an extent so that we get to see the finished product.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
"benefits other customers" I think was the wording.

The rule is, jam yesterday, and jam to-morrow, but never jam today. :p

The Auld Grump

You are an absolute treasure.

Name,

Your models are ready to move into painting now. A Painter is now available and ready to start in on them. Here are some snapshots of your havoc launchers. let me know if you want something more or different. We are at your beck and call.

Name

image(they send several, this one sums it up... not much different than i expected obviously):


A bit of damage from were my plastic glue was but I'm sure that it will make some nice rust or nurgly effect once painted over. I send them my approval and 5 secs later got a reply:

Name,

Thank you very much. Check in whenever you like.

Name

So I can check in whenever I like even if I didnt ask for this treatment, seems like they have learned from the Tenebre incedent.

It would be nice if that is the case. Either way I'm glad that you are being treated far better than he was.

Thanks for the update man, you did the GS work on those Rhinos right?

I like the tentacle coming out of one of the bullet holes, that's a neat idea. Never thought about it before but it's kinda cool imagining the tank taking damage and then..."stuff" just coming out of it.

Lurker here:

Really nice. I'm glad BTP isn't dicking you around.

I hope things work out for them, and that they learned from the tenebre incident.
Hopefully this works out

Thanks
Austin

The mere fact that they are watching this whole thread compromises any sincere attempt to treat you as they should be treating all their customers.

Do we know for a fact they are watching the thread?

 Capamaru wrote:
The mere fact that they are watching this whole thread compromises any sincere attempt to treat you as they should be treating all their customers.

Well, that's not entirely a bad thing. It means that BTP can be regulated by public review of the work they do. It also provides them with free public advertising.....so in the end, everyone's a winner.

I am pretty sure they are watching carefully forums like this one.

I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.

 squall018 wrote:
I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.

I dont see why they would, they are a business, they did what they considered appropriate with Tenebre but at some point they just move on, for better or worst that was just 1 project.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 squall018 wrote:
I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.

I dont see why they would, they are a business, they did what they considered appropriate with Tenebre but at some point they just move on, for better or worst that was just 1 project.

Yeah a 7-9 thousand dollar mistake on their end. Pretty sure that was the biggest project they have every done, and it shows they can't handle that or anything really beyond a piss poor painting level.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 squall018 wrote:
I hope they are watching this thread if it makes them up their game. Nice to see the community make a difference, even if it's small.

I dont see why they would, they are a business, they did what they considered appropriate with Tenebre but at some point they just move on, for better or worst that was just 1 project.

It's a business, run by an ego. You can bet that he's reading everything on here related to his company.