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If you are smart with money, $300 goes a very, very long way. Buy second hand, convert and magnetize. My Mechron army was under $200 thanks to trading, second hand, LGS discount, and conversions.
The point made is that in MGT you can go buy a black lotus if you have the money. There is no black lotus in 40k.
I also don't know much about MGT aside from the black lotus is very expensive for a good reason.

Strategy is a huge part of 40k as well, the rich might just suck. Buy an optimized list all you want, no target priority means no winning.

If you've seen a few games played already and are still interested, then you will best be served by having a friend start an army with you, or having a friend that already plays. That way you have a built-in opponent, and both of you can learn at the same time playing against each other. Eventually though, you will want to expand, so make sure there is some action at your FLGS.

Other than that, the best advice I can probably give you as a new player would be to delete your DakkaDakka account, BOLS account, or any other online forum accounts, and never look back. Form your own opinion of the rules and your chosen army. You don't need 40K fanboys telling you the 40K rules can do no wrong anymore than you need WarmaHordes/Flames of War/Infinity fanboys telling you the 40K rules can do no right.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
If you've seen a few games played already and are still interested, then you will best be served by having a friend start an army with you, or having a friend that already plays. That way you have a built-in opponent, and both of you can learn at the same time playing against each other. Eventually though, you will want to expand, so make sure there is some action at your FLGS.

Other than that, the best advice I can probably give you as a new player would be to delete your DakkaDakka account, BOLS account, or any other online forum accounts, and never look back. Form your own opinion of the rules and your chosen army. You don't need 40K fanboys telling you the 40K rules can do no wrong anymore than you need WarmaHordes/Flames of War/Infinity fanboys telling you the 40K rules can do no right.

Hmm, there's some bizarre self hating coming out in this thread.

I play 40K, I don't play WarmaHordes, FoW or Infinity, yet I'd advise the OP to approach 40K with extreme caution. I'd be curious to discover what interwebox you'd pigeon hole me into?

Yes, 40K is as bad as people say. Doesn't mean it can't be or isn't fun, though. As noted earlier in the thread, having a good gaming group and a love for the fluff/setting can go a long way toward making the game fun.

Yes, it is.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
If you've seen a few games played already and are still interested, then you will best be served by having a friend start an army with you, or having a friend that already plays. That way you have a built-in opponent, and both of you can learn at the same time playing against each other. Eventually though, you will want to expand, so make sure there is some action at your FLGS.

Other than that, the best advice I can probably give you as a new player would be to delete your DakkaDakka account, BOLS account, or any other online forum accounts, and never look back. Form your own opinion of the rules and your chosen army. You don't need 40K fanboys telling you the 40K rules can do no wrong anymore than you need WarmaHordes/Flames of War/Infinity fanboys telling you the 40K rules can do no right.

Hmm, there's some bizarre self hating coming out in this thread.

I play 40K, I don't play WarmaHordes, FoW or Infinity, yet I'd advise the OP to approach 40K with extreme caution. I'd be curious to discover what interwebox you'd pigeon hole me into?

Yeah I don't get it- do people have so little self-confidence that the moment they read something negative about their favorite game that they have to burn all of their models? I would personally rather hear everything about a particular game then make the decision myself.

Talys wrote:
Want a Gargantuan Squiggoth? I think they're $700+.

But will they win your games for you?

Want Vulkan? Sure, no problem, pay nearly $100 for one Independent Character.

I thought we were talking about 40k...?

Vulkan is not playable in a 40K army.

3. I know that TCGs are totally different from miniature wargames, but I gave the comparison to MtG because there are those people who will play and pay to win, and those who like the game and play casually (not that they don't like to win).

Yes... and I pointed out that it was a bad comparison because the 'pay to win' idea isn't actually as big a deal for 40K as it is for MtG.

There are plenty of powerful army builds that don't require you to buy $700 Forgeworld models.

 insaniak wrote:

Talys wrote:
Want a Gargantuan Squiggoth? I think they're $700+.

But will they win your games for you?

Want Vulkan? Sure, no problem, pay nearly $100 for one Independent Character.

I thought we were talking about 40k...?

Vulkan is not playable in a 40K army.

3. I know that TCGs are totally different from miniature wargames, but I gave the comparison to MtG because there are those people who will play and pay to win, and those who like the game and play casually (not that they don't like to win).

Yes... and I pointed out that it was a bad comparison because the 'pay to win' idea isn't actually as big a deal for 40K as it is for MtG.

There are plenty of powerful army builds that don't require you to buy $700 Forgeworld models.

Let's avoid comparisons to MTG. They're two completely different kinds of games.
Also, 40k is expensive enough with throwing in FW stuff. Heck, just add up the cost of a 1500 point army with codecis and that'll be enough for most people.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
If you are smart with money, $300 goes a very, very long way. Buy second hand, convert and magnetize. My Mechron army was under $200 thanks to trading, second hand, LGS discount, and conversions.
The point made is that in MGT you can go buy a black lotus if you have the money. There is no black lotus in 40k.
I also don't know much about MGT aside from the black lotus is very expensive for a good reason.

Strategy is a huge part of 40k as well, the rich might just suck. Buy an optimized list all you want, no target priority means no winning.

While this could be true, it isn't a great way to get into the game. Buying second hand n eBay is rarely more than 30% off of list, especially if the unit is current and the condition is good (and you can buy new at 25% off list) and availability and wait time to play ranges wildly. Also, the most popular untis are the least discounted.

All of the things you describe are what experienced players do yo save a buck (or to make a big model portable). I don't know any new player that magnetized their first $300 spend.

I was an avid (tournament level) MtG player who popped $500 of blisters at a time, and had enough ultra rare cards to play an entire hand with no land in the original game, so please trust me when I say that MtG is a very strategic game in which timing and execution, beating the meta, unexpected combos and plays are as important as deckbuilding. Anyone who thinks it's all deck has never played in a tournament.

What MtG and 40k have in common is that they're sort if cheap to get into, but for a very long time, you will feel that you can improve your performance of only you had X -- and then you go and blow a bunch of money. I do not know many long-time 40k regulars who only have a couple of boxes of miniatures. I'm not even saying this is a bad thing: Why shouldn't someone spend their disposable income on a hobby that makes them happy?

On the other hand, I think it wise to know what you're getting in to.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I also don't know much about MGT aside from the black lotus is very expensive for a good reason.

And that reason is that it's a card from over 20 years ago when MTG was first released, demand was much lower, and a lot fewer cards were printed. Yes, it's a very powerful card, but the primary reason it's worth so much is that there are so few of them. WOTC isn't saying "pay $5k for this if you want to win", it's all the secondary market and tiny supply vs. huge demand. If it was ever reprinted in a modern set with modern print quantities it would be just another $20-50 rare.

Also, one very important thing here is that you can only use that black lotus in a single tournament format ("everything is legal, all the way back to 1993") that is rarely played in major events. And many tournaments that use that format also allow you to use a limited number of proxies. So unless you're a dedicated collector who loves the nostalgia factor of playing with the oldest cards you're probably never going to need to make the choice of spending tons of money vs. losing to people who do. More realistically you're going to be playing one of the "modern cards only" formats, and those have a much lower overall cost as well as a much smaller gap between cheap decks and expensive decks.

Contrast this with 40k where the most expensive stuff is part of the core game, and a lot of it is only "pay to win" because GW figured out how to increase the price of buying an army. Why does it cost $50 for a codex and then even more to buy all of the supplements/dataslates/etc for your army? Because GW realized they can get you to pay another $50 for DLC if they just take that stuff out of the codex. Why is a $1000 titan legal in a standard game? Because GW wants to sell more $1000 titans. This isn't the secondary market settling on a high price for rare OOP models/rulebooks/etc, it's GW making a deliberate decision to make 40k an expensive game that rewards players who have the money to buy the most powerful armies.

I got into the game knowing the rules were a bit wonky, and that the armies were not exactly balanced. I joined at the tail end of 6th, and I chose Orks, despite them being arguably one of the worst armies in the game at the time, because I loved the fluff, and loved the models.

I play because the game IS fun, despite its drawbacks. I also am a master of Ebay, and snagged some RIDICULOUSLY good deals to make a rather large army for huge fractions of the cost. I'm cheap, so I'm willing to wait until something hits the price range I'm willing to bite at.

If you can get second hand, and get it at a great price, the game is well worth the investment. IF you have a group to play with. Unlike X-Wing, or Heroclix, etc 40K isn't a game all your friends can jump into due to the price. Unlike Heroclix, there aren't 15 dollar starter sets that give you a balanced set of figures and materials to play. Unlike X-Wing, you can't buy 1-3 ships with materials and play/get games with relative ease.

I vote that you experiment with proxies and see how you like the game as a whole, then take the plunge if you really like it.

@MWHistorian -- why is Vulkan He'stan not playable on 40k? He's the primarch of the Salamanders and is The Forgefather -- all melta weapons in detachment (including vehicles) become Master Crafted. You can buy him from FW. I don't have him, but I have played against a player with him.

Also, FW is a reality of the game. Most groups, you will run into some FW and most groups don't explicitly forbid it.

Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian -- why is Vulkan He'stan not playable on 40k? He's the primarch of the Salamanders and is The Forgefather --

Vulkan He'stan and the Primarch Vulkan are not the same guy.

The former is a regular character in the Space Marine Codex. The latter is a Forgeworld model that currently has no rules for Warhammer 40K, only fo rthe Horus Heresy.

When it became a ruleset that only works with a lot of house ruling it completely became not worth it.

I worked for GW in 2005-6 and it was one of the most fun jobs I've ever done.

I love what 40k used to be,and I still love what the models are, but in the last two years or so my advice has been to run as far and as fast as you can away from 40k. Don't let the aesthetics (which are awesome BTW) fool you the game is a complete and total mess right now. I mean it works, but not fluidly. You basically have to piece a functioning game from a combination of house rules, data slates, white dwarfs, and PDFs. And even then they layer an excessive amount of randomness and vague rules over the top of it all.

By all means borrow some minis and give it a shot, but as a long time player of the game I can honestly say IMO it's not worth the headache.

 insaniak wrote:

Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian -- why is Vulkan He'stan not playable on 40k? He's the primarch of the Salamanders and is The Forgefather --

Vulkan He'stan and the Primarch Vulkan are not the same guy.

The former is a regular character in the Space Marine Codex. The latter is a Forgeworld model that currently has no rules for Warhammer 40K, only fo rthe Horus Heresy.

Sorry, you are right. Vulkan (He'stan) is a solid IC who is a GW model, not FW. My bad! Primarch Vulkan is the one from FW.

Regarding the Gargantuan Squiggoth -- I was really referencing most super-heavy units. Most starting players don't have them either because they're expensive or they're complex to model. If one player has starter box units, and the other player has a Titan -- say, a baneblade, if you want to pick one that isn't absurdly expensive -- there really isn't much of a point of playing the game. The player with start box stuff will take many turns and most of its army taking down the baneblade/riptide/wk/imperial knight (fill in the blank), without you even touching the rest of your units.

foureyes69 wrote:
Hey guys, thinking about getting into WH40k (probs going Dark Eldar, I love the look, the hedonistic-torture-race fluff, and the fast-but-fragile playstyle appeals to me). I've been lurking the forums a lot and the outlook from a lot of you guys just seems bleak. I know that people in general tend to complain about things more than they praise them, but it almost seems like I'd be better off spending my time and money on other hobbies.

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

People get bleak for many reasons. My opinion is, the amount you like the price and/or quality of the game will depend upon your exposure to other tabletop miniature games, rpgs, and the like. That you're looking to get into it means that you probably know the pricing and are okay with that, so if you think you'll enjoy it then why not. Think of it like getting drunk: sure, one drink won't kill you and it's cheap enough, but at the end of the night the bill needs to be paid and you'll probably be hungover for a fair time after it. My advice is to never play any other games, don't let people talk you into even watching them play. You'll be happier that way.

 Torga_DW wrote:

foureyes69 wrote:
Hey guys, thinking about getting into WH40k (probs going Dark Eldar, I love the look, the hedonistic-torture-race fluff, and the fast-but-fragile playstyle appeals to me). I've been lurking the forums a lot and the outlook from a lot of you guys just seems bleak. I know that people in general tend to complain about things more than they praise them, but it almost seems like I'd be better off spending my time and money on other hobbies.

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

People get bleak for many reasons. My opinion is, the amount you like the price and/or quality of the game will depend upon your exposure to other tabletop miniature games, rpgs, and the like. That you're looking to get into it means that you probably know the pricing and are okay with that, so if you think you'll enjoy it then why not. Think of it like getting drunk: sure, one drink won't kill you and it's cheap enough, but at the end of the night the bill needs to be paid and you'll probably be hungover for a fair time after it. My advice is to never play any other games, don't let people talk you into even watching them play. You'll be happier that way.

When I started playing tabletop games, I had no idea I would spend $500-$1000 every month on hobby stuff. Mind you, I've been at this since RT, and my hobby spend grew with my income -- I don't feel guilty at all, because collecting miniatures makes me happy, and it's not like I can take it with me.

However, looking back on it, and the money I have spent, I might have chosen a different hobby lol.

 Ailaros wrote:

Bartali wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

....40k is one of, if not the only, game that actually encourages a close-knit "clique" to play it without frustration instead of encouraging a wide range of opponents and a "play anywhere" type of mentality.....

That's Jervis and his 80's D&D obsession for you

[b]Well, D&D and 40k/FB are the only games of its popularity that have contiguously survived since the 80's, so they're probably doing something right.

Let's not forget TSR went bankrupt, and many draw parallels between the state of GW now and TSR back then.

foureyes69 wrote:
Hey guys, thinking about getting into WH40k (probs going Dark Eldar, I love the look, the hedonistic-torture-race fluff, and the fast-but-fragile playstyle appeals to me). I've been lurking the forums a lot and the outlook from a lot of you guys just seems bleak. I know that people in general tend to complain about things more than they praise them, but it almost seems like I'd be better off spending my time and money on other hobbies.

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

I think that 40k was the gateway drug for most tabletop gamers. So near-everyone has an army and just sticks around because of the existing investment.
If I were to loose all my models, I'd not go for 40k again. The main reasons are:
- Ballance rather mediocre. Your choices are between auto-include, auto-avoid and filler, reducing almost every codex to one or two playable lists.
- Price. You pay a hell of a lot for GW models. Yeah, you can cut down via ebay, trade and whatnot, but why should I dance around the issue when I can buy say bolt action models for 1/4th the price per model fresh out of the store?
- Ammount of work. Now, if you are a painter more than a player, that might be less of an issue, but 40k armies are rather large as a rule of thumb. Other systems require you to use less models. That's both good from a financial point of view, the time invested painting rather than playing or conversely you can take more time per model, making your army far nicer than if you'd try to get those 90 hormagaunts ready for next week's tourney.
- game system as such: Roll to hit. Roll to wound. Roll to save. Remember the 124 special rules for the units, whatever spells were cast to add or remove further special rules. etc. etc. And you need half a library in dataslates, codices, expansions, supplements, WD articles, campaign books etc. just to have full access to your army.

Honestly, just pick a different game, it's probably better that way.

 Kosake wrote:
If I were to loose all my models, I'd not go for 40k again.

I think this is basically where I come from as well. It's not that I haven't had fun with 40k in the past.... but if all my models were to go up in a fire, I would not start another 40k army. I'd probably restart an army, it would just be for one of the other systems I collect, not 40k.

Oh, yeah. One more thing. Prepare for inconsistent model ranges. While some of your new models may look totally ace (Ork Flash Gitz & Stormboyz, CSM Raptors and Chosen...) other parts of your army might look like crap (Ork buggies haven't been updated for like 20 years and look the part). And some units or weapons or equipment is only available through upgrade kits, so you have to spend even more money.

Actually 40K armies are fairly small compared to typical historical armies for mass battle games.

It depends partly on the army, as a cheap troop type needs more of them to make up the points then expensive knights, just like IG compared to SM.

But generally speaking, armies for Ancients, Renaissance or Napoleonic rules often have 200 to 300 figures.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Actually 40K armies are fairly small compared to typical historical armies for mass battle games.

It depends partly on the army, as a cheap troop type needs more of them to make up the points then expensive knights, just like IG compared to SM.

But generally speaking, armies for Ancients, Renaissance or Napoleonic rules often have 200 to 300 figures.

And have their rules and prices adjusted accordingly.

While true that games for stuff like Napoleonic warfare do usually have more models (they don't have Tanks or Monstrous Creatures to eat up points), they're also usually a lot cheaper. Victrix sells boxes of fifty-to-sixty 28mm plastic Napoleonic infantry models for about the same price that Games Workshop sells 10 plastic Cadian Imperial Guardsmen.

Historicals in general tend to be cheaper, simply because they're not based on an IP that belongs to a particular company. Competition keeps the prices down.

foureyes69 wrote:
Hey guys, thinking about getting into WH40k (probs going Dark Eldar, I love the look, the hedonistic-torture-race fluff, and the fast-but-fragile playstyle appeals to me). I've been lurking the forums a lot and the outlook from a lot of you guys just seems bleak. I know that people in general tend to complain about things more than they praise them, but it almost seems like I'd be better off spending my time and money on other hobbies.

What I mainly want to know is basically is it worth it? Do you guys genuinely enjoy the game and just use the forum to vent about the annoying stuff or do you guys feel like you mostly just play because you've been doing it for a while and that it's not worth spending the dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars that it takes for a new player to get into it?

yes, i play with my close buddys and we have fun, i generally get blown out of the water but theres still fun in loseing

 insaniak wrote:
Historicals in general tend to be cheaper, simply because they're not based on an IP that belongs to a particular company. Competition keeps the prices down.

That's a very good point

 insaniak wrote:
Historicals in general tend to be cheaper, simply because they're not based on an IP that belongs to a particular company. Competition keeps the prices down.

But if fur, Roman numerals, grenade launchers, skulls and arrows can be trademarked surely French military uniforms and terminology can too, right?

I guess the people who are calling GW a "successful" business haven't been reading the financial reports for the last 10 years, or looking at the amount of stores they closed compared to the amount of new stores they opened, or paid attention to CHS trial where they wasted millions in legal fees suing a company that only made aftermarket bits and models GW had rules for but didn't bother making models for. How about the fact that they had to close both their forums and all their Facebook pages due to the amount of backlash from unhappy customers? I guess the anecdotal evidence that I see FAR more people complain about GW than any other video game, CCG or TWG is meaningless too. Yea, those all sound like hallmarks of a "successful" company. GW is actually a perfect example of how NOT to run a hobby company. If you're just starting out, I strongly recommend trying other games. For the cost of a 500 point 40k army (which I barely ever see 500 point games even played), you could get a 50 point Warmachine army. The models don't look as cool and the quality isn't as good but the game and rules are many times better than GW stuff. Also the company cares about the customers instead of looking at them as wallets with legs.

This title just BEGS for the hateraid to begin.

I love this game and love the way it plays. So SOME people say it is bad - and others say it's great.

Does it have problems? Sure it does. But I love it regardless. It's all about how you play and what you want out of your wargaming entertainment.