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Its not the same as seeing them in person.

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Going to throw out "Stalingrad"

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I liked Stalingrad, but especially in the current political environment, the amount of 'rarara RUSSIA!' was a bit disturbing.

   
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 LordofHats wrote:
I liked Stalingrad, but especially in the current political environment, the amount of 'rarara RUSSIA!' was a bit disturbing.


There's only one nation who makes more nationalistic movies than the USA, and that is Russia.

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 EmilCrane wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
I liked Stalingrad, but especially in the current political environment, the amount of 'rarara RUSSIA!' was a bit disturbing.


There's only one nation who makes more nationalistic movies than the USA, and that is Russia.


Its even more creepy when you consider they spend a lot of time celebrating a war where Russians killed as many Russians as the Germans did @_@. I get why we celebrate WWII. We didn't deal with a lot of the dark gak. But why Russia celebrates WWII as much as they do I will never understand. The Eastern Front was by far the most brutal event in human history. By miles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/16 18:56:28


   
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 LordofHats wrote:
 EmilCrane wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
I liked Stalingrad, but especially in the current political environment, the amount of 'rarara RUSSIA!' was a bit disturbing.


There's only one nation who makes more nationalistic movies than the USA, and that is Russia.


Its even more creepy when you consider they spend a lot of time celebrating a war where Russians killed as many Russians as the Germans did @_@. I get why we celebrate WWII. We didn't deal with a lot of the dark gak. But why Russia celebrates WWII as much as they do I will never understand. The Eastern Front was by far the most brutal event in human history. By miles.


The same reason we celebrate the Civil War. No matter how many casualties we took, we won. No matter how horrible or vile the actual historic events may be, at the end of the day victory is what's remembered.

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Except the Civil War preserved the union, freed the slaves, liberty and freedom for all (except the Indians and the black folk), so there's something to be proud of there by contemporary standards.

WWII just preserved a brutal dictatorship that went on to continue killing millions of Russians. Granted, probably an improvement over Nazi rule, but still not that grand.

   
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 generalgrog wrote:
Let me rank the modern war films(series) I like.


I get not liking Fury. But not liking Fury while like The Big Red One kind of amazes me a little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Desubot wrote:
I thought it was ok. but definitely could of seen more tank on tank action.


One of the things I really liked is that the film didn't fall in line with the myth that tanks are all about blowing up other tanks. While it did unfortunately still repeat the old nonsense about Shermans being inadequate against the mythical German supertanks, at least it showed that the quality and effectiveness of a tank isn't all about its ability to blow up enemy tanks at range. Showing Shermans unleash on during an advance on an enemy infantry position was fantastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Barksdale wrote:
Exactly my thoughts. I still think they could have pulled it off better. I mean, I really enjoyed the rest of the film. That last scene was just so poorly executed it really took me out of the experience.


Yep. With a better ending it could have ended up an essential war movie, but as it is it's really just a war film with some good bits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
Someone already mentioned the issue with the former, but what was with the latter - how is that supposed to work? I don't know much about WW2 tank combat.


A tank has poor visibility and the flanks is really vulnerable to attacks to the flanks and rear. It has tremendous firepower that can take apart enemy positions in seconds, but those vulnerabilities mean it can be taken out by a small enemy combat team lying in wait. So doctrine in situations like that town are for the infantry to move forward, clear out hidey holes and identify enemy hard points. Then the tank moves forward and blasts the hard points to pieces.

One the battle versus the Tiger, it's funny how many people are writing to complain the Tiger was commanded poorly, as if the Tiger should have won that fight. Thing is, Fury had the 76mm gun, which was effective against the frontal armour of the Tiger at standard combat ranges. If the Tiger had identified that only Fury was upgunned and taken it out first then the fight might have worked out differently, but as it was Fury should have been able to engage and defeat the Tiger without any of that glory charge and sneaking around the back craziness.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/17 04:37:09


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 MrDwhitey wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
So in real life it's a lot like Battlefield 4, is what you're saying? Disappointing.


Tankers would actually refuse orders to advance into built up areas without infantry support around them.

Also I like this:

Would be nice if there was a picture showing the Tiger I and the M3 Lee. One the shell comparison it looks a 75mm HE shell next to a 88mm AP shell. Given American mostly encountered infantry, AT guns, tank destroyers, light and medium tanks. 75mm and 76.2mm cannons been more than good enough for the job at hand . The big cats were pretty rare everywhere except on the eastern front. Tiger Is fought in Africa were largely irrelevant due to sheer rarity of them and the overabundance of AT gun armed British and Commonwealth tanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/17 05:10:16


 
   
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Well the really sad part is that the heavy tanks could have been a formidable force, but they were used incorrectly.

What they should have done was once they developed the Tiger 1 and built up the divisions which existed to full strength, ceased further heavy tank development and only expanded in medium tanks. The Tigers could then be used in large numbers together as an offensive sledge hammer while the medium StuGs and Panzer IVs were used defensively.

Instead, they deployed the Tigers way too thin and allowed them to be destroyed one on one. They were also poorly supported because they were treated like the invincible machines they definitely were not.

A force of Tigers backed up by mechanized infantry could have been used to harry enemy forces and take away resources from the main fighting and allowed the Germans to push back or at the very least hold their ground.


Of course this wouldn't have saved Germany from the fact they bit off way more than they could chew. Once they had control of Europe, Hitler should have waited at least a decade before attempting anything further, have a cease fire with England(avoiding drawing the US into conflict, let them play with the Japanese), and NOT POKE THE RUSSIAN BEAR!

10 years would allow for a new wave of soldiers drawn from the populations of conquered nations as they could have indoctrinated the youth in that time period.

Of course, the Nazis would have issues expanding beyond that because at this point Nuclear weaponry will have been developed. They'd probably get away with snapping up Africa and the ME. Then they'd likely bomb Russia into oblivion with nuclear weaponry(they'd get them long before the Russians did and wouldn't hesitate to use them), but after that it would be a stand off between the US/England and the Nazi Empire.

The war in the pacific likely would play out very similarly to how it actually did. Japan might fall faster with the US not getting involved in Europe immediately.

So we have another Cold War, but with the Nazi old world instead of Russia.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Heavy tanks were a terrible idea for Germany. They were never going to have the fuel to keep those things running in number. They'd have been better served pushing out more medium tanks and never delving into heavies at all, but they let the initial power of the Tiger go to their heads. The Panther by all rights was a superior platform in every way, and used less gas.

   
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Sure, they were a horrible idea for a country which had no fuel and was losing the war. But if they'd taken steps to rectify that they would have done ok. And certainly not trying to rely on them exclusively hurt them a lot.

But the idea of Heavy tanks wasn't a bad one as a rule.

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 Grey Templar wrote:


But the idea of Heavy tanks wasn't a bad one as a rule.


One of the big things the war taught everyone was that heavy tanks were a bad idea. It's why the MBT was invented.

   
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 LordofHats wrote:
 Ouze wrote:


Someone already mentioned the issue with the former, but what was with the latter - how is that supposed to work? I don't know much about WW2 tank combat.


A tank advancing with no infantry support is basically a dead tank. Contrary to how films may display, a tank alone with no support is not that hard to destroy. they're loud, slow, and no matter how armored, they can be blown up (unless you're a KV-1 in 1942 ). EDIT: Not to mention their extremely limited field of vision. A group of experienced infantry, in reality, would not generally be challenged taking out a lone tank with no other support. This is especially true in closed quarters, like a town, as a single guy waiting around a corner with a good shot is going to disable that tank. In other words, mother fething corner campers.

Properly, the infantry would advance in front of the tank, spotting any dangers, as they are far more mobile than the tank is, and making it difficult for the tank to be flanked or surrounded.


It had support. There was infantry with them. They were doing it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 sebster wrote:
 generalgrog wrote:
Let me rank the modern war films(series) I like.


I get not liking Fury. But not liking Fury while like The Big Red One kind of amazes me a little.


Yea that was a great big suck bag of a movie.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
Heavy tanks were a terrible idea for Germany. They were never going to have the fuel to keep those things running in number. They'd have been better served pushing out more medium tanks and never delving into heavies at all, but they let the initial power of the Tiger go to their heads. The Panther by all rights was a superior platform in every way, and used less gas.


There are pages and pages of arguments about what would have happened if the Germans had focused on the PZ IV and STGs with the long barrel 75 vs. both the Panthers and Tigers. Panthers were good tank but hyperoverenfineered and always breaking down.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/17 13:15:55


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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LordofHats wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


I loved it. There is a story of a Russian T34 in 1942 in a natural chokepoint by a river that held off a regiemnt sized force for a day, because they couldn't kill it.


This was a K1, not a T34. And it wasn't a Regiment. it was the entire 7th Panzer Division*. And yes. It is one hell of a tale. In 1942, the K1 was literally unkillable by anything the Germans had. Artillery, tanks, satchel charges, nothing could pierce that armor.

*Technically, they weren't holding off the division so much as making it impossible for the division to move. The K1 actually broke down at that position, and proceeded to fire on any Germans it saw. Just so happened those Germans were fuel trucks for the 7th, who couldn't move because they didn't have enough gas.


Actually it was a KV-2, although it did hold the entire division up as you said. In the end they hit it with 88's and thought they had knocked it out. It was only as they where examining it that they realised the few ( I think about three ) shots that had penetrated it hadnt killed it but had merely stunned the crew as the turret began turning. A quick thinking engineer managed to get a grenade in through a half opened hatch and finish it though.

LuciusAR wrote:Saw it a couple of weeks ago. Considering the film had being heavily pushing its self on its ‘realism’ largely based on the fact they managed to get a real Easy Eight Sherman and Tiger tank involved, it then they then seem to squander it by completely getting the actual battles completely wrong. Most of the battles scene where ludicrous and made Saving Private Ryan look like a detailed documentary in comparison.

The Germans never make any attempt to hit and run, as they were doing at that stage in the war. Instead they seen to throw themselves fanatically onto American bullets. The climactic battle scene in particular has the SS charging Fury’s machine guns like depressed lemmings. They don’t even breaking out the panzerfauts until after about 15 minutes into the fight.


Actually it isnt a real Tiger. if I remember rightly it is a light tank with a superstructure added over the top and the treads and running gear edited in.
Seeing as the only running Tiger is 131 and she is an early variant from Tunisia and the variant shown is most definetly a late version (look at the running gear, turret, cupola and rear deck).

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And they used that Tiger.

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Panthers were good tank but hyperoverenfineered and always breaking down.


Overengineered yes, but the breakdown problem 1) was mostly solved by 1944, and 2) was also a problem the Tiger had. And overengineered might be misplaced. Their engines were under huge stress because of the weight they were pushing around (the Panther was just a few torques away from being the Pershing, which frequently tore its own suspension to cinders). Engine technology hadn't quite come along just yet for them, plus the interlocking wheels were a huge over complication that gave little real benefit.

Actually it isnt a real Tiger. if I remember rightly it is a light tank with a superstructure added over the top and the treads and running gear edited in.
Seeing as the only running Tiger is 131 and she is an early variant from Tunisia and the variant shown is most definetly a late version (look at the running gear, turret, cupola and rear deck).


The tank in the film is Tiger 131. 131 was mostly taken apart during and after the war, then rebuilt more recently with parts salvaged from other tigers and an engine from a Tiger II.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/17 14:35:20


   
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 LordofHats wrote:
Panthers were good tank but hyperoverenfineered and always breaking down.


Overengineered yes, but the breakdown problem 1) was mostly solved by 1944, and 2) was also a problem the Tiger had. And overengineered might be misplaced. Their engines were under huge stress because of the weight they were pushing around (the Panther was just a few torques away from being the Pershing, which frequently tore its own suspension to cinders). Engine technology hadn't quite come along just yet for them, plus the interlocking wheels were a huge over complication that gave little real benefit.


And that was the problem. The MIV wasn't overengineered. Like the Sherman and T34 they could make high production numbers of it. Better for us I suppose: fewer made, and the biggest JagdTiger is still just a target to a Thunderbolt or Typhoon.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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I thought the first two acts were great and the last act was like a different movie. The first 2/3rds are like a gritty war movie about a Tanker crew and then the last 1/3rd is just a ridiculous action movie. Because I like the first two acts so much it made the last bit even harder to swallow.

 
   
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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought the first two acts were great and the last act was like a different movie. The first 2/3rds are like a gritty war movie about a Tanker crew and then the last 1/3rd is just a ridiculous action movie. Because I like the first two acts so much it made the last bit even harder to swallow.

So the opposite of The Kingdom or District 9
An hour "What the heck am I watching this for"
Followed by 30 min of "HOLY THIS IS AWSOME"

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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought the first two acts were great and the last act was like a different movie. The first 2/3rds are like a gritty war movie about a Tanker crew and then the last 1/3rd is just a ridiculous action movie. Because I like the first two acts so much it made the last bit even harder to swallow.


Well the last bit was ok because dey was killin Nazis. Who don't like that? (brownshirts shut up and sit your butts back down!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you were re-writing the last 1/3 what would you have done.

Me:
-Artillery barrage taking out German girlies - changed to just an artillery barrage and them being ordered to move out.

-Would have had Fury -firing some shells and retreating-making it back to the operations unit its trying to protect and making a stand with them there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/17 20:56:23


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 Frazzled wrote:
 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought the first two acts were great and the last act was like a different movie. The first 2/3rds are like a gritty war movie about a Tanker crew and then the last 1/3rd is just a ridiculous action movie. Because I like the first two acts so much it made the last bit even harder to swallow.


Well the last bit was ok because dey was killin Nazis. Who don't like that? (brownshirts shut up and sit your butts back down!)



Tanks are quite vulnerable to Infantry. Those SS should have been able to easily take out a crippled tank. At one point they're just trowing grenades out the hatch and killing dozens of Germans. Like what the hell are those Germans even doing? Bayonet charging the tank? It's just way too over the top. Also they shouldn't have even have fought that battle, they should have just gone and hid in a bush. But no, Brad Pitt had to have his heroic Hollywood last stand. Even then when the guy gets two grenades blow up right next to him it doesn't ruin his pretty face. It's two grenades going off in a tank, he should be hamburger.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I thought the first two acts were great and the last act was like a different movie. The first 2/3rds are like a gritty war movie about a Tanker crew and then the last 1/3rd is just a ridiculous action movie. Because I like the first two acts so much it made the last bit even harder to swallow.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you were re-writing the last 1/3 what would you have done.

Me:
-Artillery barrage taking out German girlies - changed to just an artillery barrage and them being ordered to move out.

-Would have had Fury -firing some shells and retreating-making it back to the operations unit its trying to protect and making a stand with them there.


The best part of the Movie was the Tiger fight. One other problem was there was only one tank fight. Maybe if the last stand was against some tanks and just not as crazy that would have been good. Like maybe they're fighting both infantry and tanks then they get crippled then they go all Rambo but the Germans don't act as stupid through the whole thing even that would have been better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/17 21:10:47


 
   
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Well they're not going to make BP look like handburger. Thats just a given.

How would you have done it differently?

Addendum. i might have had a hopsital scene at the end with one of the survivors in hospital when the radio announces the Germans have surrendered.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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 Frazzled wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you were re-writing the last 1/3 what would you have done.


More Tank on Tank Action.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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I would have changed the last fight so that they open fire just as the Nazis reach within 30 ft of the tank, then they hose down the entire road and block the column from advancing.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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 LordofHats wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:


But the idea of Heavy tanks wasn't a bad one as a rule.


One of the big things the war taught everyone was that heavy tanks were a bad idea. It's why the MBT was invented.
Heavy tanks weren't a bad idea in and by themselves, but were when the infrastructure isn't there to power, maintain, fuel, and transport them.
   
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 master of ordinance wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:


I loved it. There is a story of a Russian T34 in 1942 in a natural chokepoint by a river that held off a regiemnt sized force for a day, because they couldn't kill it.


This was a K1, not a T34. And it wasn't a Regiment. it was the entire 7th Panzer Division*. And yes. It is one hell of a tale. In 1942, the K1 was literally unkillable by anything the Germans had. Artillery, tanks, satchel charges, nothing could pierce that armor.

*Technically, they weren't holding off the division so much as making it impossible for the division to move. The K1 actually broke down at that position, and proceeded to fire on any Germans it saw. Just so happened those Germans were fuel trucks for the 7th, who couldn't move because they didn't have enough gas.


Actually it was a KV-2, although it did hold the entire division up as you said. In the end they hit it with 88's and thought they had knocked it out. It was only as they where examining it that they realised the few ( I think about three ) shots that had penetrated it hadnt killed it but had merely stunned the crew as the turret began turning. A quick thinking engineer managed to get a grenade in through a half opened hatch and finish it though.

LuciusAR wrote:Saw it a couple of weeks ago. Considering the film had being heavily pushing its self on its ‘realism’ largely based on the fact they managed to get a real Easy Eight Sherman and Tiger tank involved, it then they then seem to squander it by completely getting the actual battles completely wrong. Most of the battles scene where ludicrous and made Saving Private Ryan look like a detailed documentary in comparison.

The Germans never make any attempt to hit and run, as they were doing at that stage in the war. Instead they seen to throw themselves fanatically onto American bullets. The climactic battle scene in particular has the SS charging Fury’s machine guns like depressed lemmings. They don’t even breaking out the panzerfauts until after about 15 minutes into the fight.


Actually it isnt a real Tiger. if I remember rightly it is a light tank with a superstructure added over the top and the treads and running gear edited in.
Seeing as the only running Tiger is 131 and she is an early variant from Tunisia and the variant shown is most definetly a late version (look at the running gear, turret, cupola and rear deck).


It clearly has the early running gear in the film because it is 131.
   
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Rubberanvil wrote:
weren't a bad idea in and by themselves, but were when the infrastructure isn't there to power, maintain, fuel, and transport them.


They're a bad idea because tactically, the entire way tanks were classified at the time was pointless. One of the lessons of the war was that a tank that can't kill another tank isn't a very good tank. Light tanks were mostly useless through out the war, easily picked off and not really fast enough to make up for it. Heavy tanks eventually became obsolete because engine technology advanced enough that having a divide between heavy and medium tanks was fruitless.* The MBT combines the best aspects of both classifications.

*To illustrate, the Panther weighed 20 tons more than the Sherman, but was just as fast, more heavily armored, and more heavily armed. Technology and tactics ultimately showed heavy tanks were unnecessary complications.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 00:19:47


   
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 Grey Templar wrote:
Well the really sad part is that the heavy tanks could have been a formidable force, but they were used incorrectly.

What they should have done was once they developed the Tiger 1 and built up the divisions which existed to full strength, ceased further heavy tank development and only expanded in medium tanks. The Tigers could then be used in large numbers together as an offensive sledge hammer while the medium StuGs and Panzer IVs were used defensively.


Nah, the Tiger was a pre-war design, and while it worked great as a good enough platform to get the excellent 88mm gun onto a tank, as an overall weapon of war the Tiger is probably one of the most overrated weapons of war in history. Ultimately, there are very, very good reasons they stopped building them in 1944.

Focusing more on Tigers would only have exacerbated the weaknesses of the design, while adding little more tank killing potency, and making its eventual obsolescence even more of a disaster. I gather you're hinting that the German program of even heavier tanks was a waste of resources, but the answer wasn't more Tigers, but to rationalise resources into a single heavy tank design to replace the Tiger.

Of course this wouldn't have saved Germany from the fact they bit off way more than they could chew. Once they had control of Europe, Hitler should have waited at least a decade before attempting anything further, have a cease fire with England(avoiding drawing the US into conflict, let them play with the Japanese), and NOT POKE THE RUSSIAN BEAR!


Nah, not even a little. Barbarossa really was now or never for Hitler. To quote Liddell Hart's description of Germany's strategic position - "Germany had no home production of cotton, rubber, tin, platinum, bauxite, mercury, and mica, while her supplies of iron-ore, copper, antimony, manganese, nickel, sulphur, wool and petroleum were quite inadequate'.

What Germany had was a temporary advantage in organisation, control and effective doctrine, while Russia's army was at its weakest point as it was still recovering from the purges and only beginning its modernization. To argue that a country facing acute resource shortages but with temporary military superiority should switch to a waiting game is completely wrong.


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 Frazzled wrote:
And that was the problem. The MIV wasn't overengineered. Like the Sherman and T34 they could make high production numbers of it. Better for us I suppose: fewer made, and the biggest JagdTiger is still just a target to a Thunderbolt or Typhoon.


I was reading a bit recently that said that the effectiveness of rockets from Typhoons against tanks was probably overestimated - their low accuracy meant firing a full load of 8 gave you maybe a 5% chance of hitting. The early estimates of their tank killing came mostly from pilot reports and were very optimistic.

This isn't to doubt the effectiveness of fighter bombers - but their real value lay in the devastation they put on lighter vehicles, where a direct hit wasn't needed. To rejig your comment - 'the biggest Jadgtiger is just a liability when the Thunderbolts and Typhoons have shredded the supporting convoys bringing up munitions & fuel"


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Rubberanvil wrote:
One of the big things the war taught everyone was that heavy tanks were a bad idea. It's why the MBT was invented.
Heavy tanks weren't a bad idea in and by themselves, but were when the infrastructure isn't there to power, maintain, fuel, and transport them.


Pretty much. Heavy tanks were a situational weapon - great against concentrations of enemy tanks or against enemy fortifications, but elsewhere you're much better with medium tanks. A specialist weapon like that first and foremost needs to fit in with existing infrastructure - because once you start needing to modify rail carriages and stuff like that then you're looking at a lot of hassle that can't be justified by the relatively minor role that heavy tanks play in your fighting force.


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 LordofHats wrote:
They're a bad idea because tactically, the entire way tanks were classified at the time was pointless. One of the lessons of the war was that a tank that can't kill another tank isn't a very good tank. Light tanks were mostly useless through out the war, easily picked off and not really fast enough to make up for it. Heavy tanks eventually became obsolete because engine technology advanced enough that having a divide between heavy and medium tanks was fruitless.* The MBT combines the best aspects of both classifications.

*To illustrate, the Panther weighed 20 tons more than the Sherman, but was just as fast, more heavily armored, and more heavily armed. Technology and tactics ultimately showed heavy tanks were unnecessary complications.


Yeah, just to expand on that - really heavy tanks weren't that bad of an idea in 1942 - especially not when facing Soviet doctrine that was so dependant on tanks for achieving breakthrough. But by the end of the war there was no sensible amount of armour that could stop the latest AT guns, and no amount of armour could reduce the vulnerability of the tracks to infantry AT weapons. At the same time advances in tank design and engine power meant you could put a potent AT gun on medium frame, while engine improvements meant that tank could still maintain effective mobility.

There were also a lot of lessons learned about the need for weapon platforms that could do any job at any time - modern warfare is chaotic and rapidly changing, and it is much better to be able to respond now with a good enough weapon, than respond later with exactly the right specialist weapon. This meant that generalist designs that were good enough against enemy tanks, good enough against enemy infantry, and mobile enough to exploit breakthrough became the optimum design.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 01:01:30


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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 LordofHats wrote:
Rubberanvil wrote:
weren't a bad idea in and by themselves, but were when the infrastructure isn't there to power, maintain, fuel, and transport them.


They're a bad idea because tactically, the entire way tanks were classified at the time was pointless. One of the lessons of the war was that a tank that can't kill another tank isn't a very good tank. Light tanks were mostly useless through out the war, easily picked off and not really fast enough to make up for it. Heavy tanks eventually became obsolete because engine technology advanced enough that having a divide between heavy and medium tanks was fruitless.* The MBT combines the best aspects of both classifications.

*To illustrate, the Panther weighed 20 tons more than the Sherman, but was just as fast, more heavily armored, and more heavily armed. Technology and tactics ultimately showed heavy tanks were unnecessary complications.
The MBT is amalgamization of medium, heavy, turreted tank destroyer, turreted assault gun and when the situation calls for it self propelled artillery. It can argue MBT is the decendent of heavy tank as every problem with the class except weight have fixed.

Tanks are also useless if they can't kill infantry or anything else if tank is only armed with an icepick. Hence the whole upgunning debacle everyone was involve as tanks need to be able kill whatever they come across. Everyone kept making light tanks or tank destroyers based on them, as it was better to build something useful instead of leaving factories idling. No nobody really the time to reconfigure the factories to build something bigger or time to train the workers.
   
 
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