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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 01:17:55
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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For the rocket comment, I heard from a WW2 pilot that usually they looked at a building or specific spot and just fired all their rockets at it in one go. Im fairly sure they used cannon against tanks.
The bigger is better idea was hotly contested in both tanks and ships. Before the war here was a huge focus on making things "big" so you have huge land battle ships and plans for other huge tanks. As usual the better option turned out to have a multi purpose general design instead of splitting tanks by category and class.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 01:20:44
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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It can argue MBT is the decendent of heavy tank as every problem with the class except weight have fixed.
I'd actually argue the MBT is a descendent of the Medium Tank, as the tactics behind them more closely resemble those of the Panzer IV and Sherman than the Tiger or IS-2.
Everyone kept making light tanks or tank destroyers based on them
I think that simplifies it a bit. The Tank Destroyers for example were trapped in a big battle between paper pushers in the Army, arguing back and forth over the most effective means of destroying the 'Blitzkreig' they were all so afraid of. Irony turned out that the US never actually had to fight the Blitz until the Battle of the Buldge, and surprise, the Tank Destroyers ended up not being that useful and the Blitzkreig kind of defeated itself XD
I'm not arguing that people were stupid for building heavy tanks. We know things now they didn't know then. One of the things we know is that ultimately, more Tigers weren't going to save Germany, and the Tiger itself in retrospect isn't the great killing machine we like to pretend it is. The way armored warfare was thought about at the time was on the cutting edge, and highly theoretical. Everyone was playing the 'Best Guessing Game.' WWII was a learning experience, but most of that got worked out after the war, not before or during.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 01:21:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 03:20:49
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Been Around the Block
San Antonio, Texas
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One thing to remember is if Germany doesn't surrender when they did they will have gotten an atomic roflstomp via USAAF.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 03:35:23
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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By the time we had operational nukes the Germans had nothing worth using them on.
Alternate History where Germany holds onto Europe, they also have nukes.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 04:00:16
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Major
Middle Earth
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Rubberanvil wrote:One thing to remember is if Germany doesn't surrender when they did they will have gotten an atomic roflstomp via USAAF.
The Luftwaffe had planes specifically designed to intercept the B-29, the Ta-152 and the FW-190D-9 and D-12. Japan had no answer to the B-29, which is why the Americans could bombard their cities with contemptuous ease. With only two atomic bombs even the chance one bomber might get intercepted is a strategic disaster.
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 04:05:16
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Hm, I'm greatly interested in the declarations that the Tiger wasn't a potent war machine. It seemed like the perfect weapon for fighting on the Eastern Front. Unlike any other tank in the Wehrmacht at the time, it had wide tracks to help it get around. The 88mm cannon was a fearsome weapon and, to my knowledge, was capable of taking on anything the Allies ever put on the field throughout the entire war. Sure it had a slow turret traverse, but that's not really a big problem when you're fighting on the Russian steppe. That thing could knock out T-34s or Shermans from over a kilometer away. It certainly wasn't lacking for protection, and unlike the Panther most of the technical deficiencies were ironed out in its first year of service.
So... why was it bad again?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 04:10:19
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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It stems from all the mechanical and resource failures it was plagued by.
The Germans simply didn't have the resources to use their nice designs to full effect.
Even then, they did misuse the Tiger.
The ideal army would have been mostly Panthers and Panzer IVs, with small numbers of Tigers providing backup where they would be most effective. Either as a heavy breakthough force or defending large areas of open ground as a mobile 88 platform.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 04:12:39
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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Been Around the Block
San Antonio, Texas
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Grey Templar wrote:By the time we had operational nukes the Germans had nothing worth using them on.
Fatman and Littleboy were earmarked for Berlin and iirc Bonn but Germany surrendered before preparations for the bombing mission were complete in England.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 04:15:49
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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IIRC they were earmarked way ahead of when they were actually built. By that time, the front was so close using them there would have been purely symbolic.
It might have also been to intimidate the Russians a little as well. They had always been allies of convenience.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 04:17:20
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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It sounds very odd to me to cite mechanical issues with the Tiger being a big problem but then advocate for more Panthers. The Panther had far more fundamental design problems than the Tiger did, and as I mentioned earlier the Tiger at least was refined to an acceptable level of mechanical breakdowns unlike the Panther. As for misuse, I can't comment on that one way or another as that's getting too far into how the war was fought at the tactical level. That's for actual military men to decide IMO.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 04:24:35
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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They did fix most of the problems with the Panther eventually. It was a very very good design which caught the Allies off guard by its use as a Medium tank.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 05:07:07
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Grey Templar wrote:They did fix most oPanther roblems with the Panther eventually. It was a very very good design which caught the Allies off guard by its use as a Medium tank.
This is actually incorrect. The final drive, which was the single biggest problem with the Panther design, was never rectified even after the war. The suspension they used just wasn't up to the task for a 45 ton tank, and the transmission had a 90% failure rate after just 1,500km. The Panther also used a different gear box than the Tiger, which became a huge problem as the tank was a nightmare to drive in combat conditions. This was made worse by the fact that the Germans would put new tank crews into their Panthers and never had time to adequately train them, so you had rookies who lacked basic training learning on the fly.
The Tiger, on the other hand, eventually overcame most of its technical deficiencies and had a pretty good serviceability rate post-1942. Unlike the Panther, it was a pleasure to drive as it had the excellent Maybach gear box. The Panther certainly had things going for it. It had good speed, great protection, and an excellent gun, but it had crippling mechanical issues that the Germans never resolved. The Tiger was a much more reliable tank and just as deadly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 07:24:25
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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I think the biggest problem with the Tiger was that they just didn't have enough. It was pretty invincible especially early war, but the Russians had swarms of T34s and its not like they were made of paper either. We know the exact number of Tigers built, I don't think we do for T34 as factories were bashing them out as fast as possible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 10:25:52
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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I would like to rescind my previous statement about it not being a real Tiger, I went back and watched the trailer again..... This time with more than one hours worth of sleep behind these eyes  (So I wasnt expecting to see an old Tger and so i didnt)
Still, it should not be 131, as 131's design was no longer in production (Although there was a small number of "Hybrid" Tigers that used and old turret and new hull)..... But thats just the history buff in me
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 10:30:19
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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I liked it. there was a moment at the end when i thought the sarge (or commander) was going to shoot himself which ticked me off, but shooting a Nazi is good. i found the morality in the film interesting, and the death of the two civilian women to be actually quite hillariious. I'm a terrible person like that.
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*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here* |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 12:27:47
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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was reading a bit recently that said that the effectiveness of rockets from Typhoons against tanks was probably overestimated - their low accuracy meant firing a full load of 8 gave you maybe a 5% chance of hitting. The early estimates of their tank killing came mostly from pilot reports and were very optimistic.
This isn't to doubt the effectiveness of fighter bombers - but their real value lay in the devastation they put on lighter vehicles, where a direct hit wasn't needed. To rejig your comment - 'the biggest Jadgtiger is just a liability when the Thunderbolts and Typhoons have shredded the supporting convoys bringing up munitions & fuel"
***I’ll agree on most of that. Killing the logistics was their best use. However, don’t forget Thunderbolts and Yaks had 500+ lb bombs which they would use if the occasion warranted. I assume the Typhoons did as well.
Yeah, just to expand on that - really heavy tanks weren't that bad of an idea in 1942 - especially not when facing Soviet doctrine that was so dependant on tanks for achieving breakthrough. But by the end of the war there was no sensible amount of armour that could stop the latest AT guns, and no amount of armour could reduce the vulnerability of the tracks to infantry AT weapons. At the same time advances in tank design and engine power meant you could put a potent AT gun on medium frame, while engine improvements meant that tank could still maintain effective mobility.
Indeed, I’d argue that later tank design “went heavy” in a medium way for everyone by the end of WWII, for the reasons you noted. New engine and tank design permitted a new generation of MOBILE heavy tanks, which often were reasonably reliable vs. the Model T heavy tank designs of the Germans.
JS II: 51 short tons
Chieftain: 52 tons
M48: 49.6 short tons
Jagdtiger as a comparison: 75 tons
As a reference-Sherman: 33 short tons, also a nice historical note-the M103 heavy tank built at the same time as the M-60 to counter Soviet armor: 65 tons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M103_heavy_tank
Automatically Appended Next Post: EmilCrane wrote:Rubberanvil wrote:One thing to remember is if Germany doesn't surrender when they did they will have gotten an atomic roflstomp via USAAF.
The Luftwaffe had planes specifically designed to intercept the B-29, the Ta-152 and the FW-190D-9 and D-12. Japan had no answer to the B-29, which is why the Americans could bombard their cities with contemptuous ease. With only two atomic bombs even the chance one bomber might get intercepted is a strategic disaster.
They may have had plans, but that had no planes... Automatically Appended Next Post: Grey Templar wrote:It stems from all the mechanical and resource failures it was plagued by.
The Germans simply didn't have the resources to use their nice designs to full effect.
Even then, they did misuse the Tiger.
The ideal army would have been mostly Panthers and Panzer IVs, with small numbers of Tigers providing backup where they would be most effective. Either as a heavy breakthough force or defending large areas of open ground as a mobile 88 platform.
As they were playing defense, upgunned STGs or even the Panther based 88mm wielding tank hunter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanther
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 12:36:08
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 12:40:16
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I think in the end Fury was more of a psychological drama set in a war and not a straight-up war-movie.
I still enjoyed it very much though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 12:40:48
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Howard A Treesong wrote:I think the biggest problem with the Tiger was that they just didn't have enough. It was pretty invincible especially early war, but the Russians had swarms of T34s and its not like they were made of paper either. We know the exact number of Tigers built, I don't think we do for T34 as factories were bashing them out as fast as possible.
Lots of T34s. Plus they countered with T35/85s, and the SU "tiger hunters" 85 and later the 100.
Of course they also developed the JS line of tanks which evolved after Kursk from the old KV line. The Rooskies were definitely in the game.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 15:02:33
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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[DCM]
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the shrouded lord wrote:I liked it. there was a moment at the end when i thought the sarge (or commander) was going to shoot himself which ticked me off, but shooting a Nazi is good. i found the morality in the film interesting, and the death of the two civilian women to be actually quite hillariious. I'm a terrible person like that.
That's a really distasteful thing to say.
I can't honestly believe you think it is hilarious - that would be wrong on many, many levels.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 15:07:20
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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creeping-deth87 wrote:Hm, I'm greatly interested in the declarations that the Tiger wasn't a potent war machine.
Strategically; The Tiger was a drain on resources. At any given time, there were never more than a few hundred Tigers operating, but they consumed huge amounts of resources to build. For the cost of a Tiger, you could have had 3 or 4 STUGs or 2 Panzer IVs. And the STUG had the best KtD of any German armored vehicle (it's the unsung hero of their war effort really). This is really a big deal, when you consider how few Tigers there were at any given time, and that the sheer volume of fire directed against them by the allies was more than enough to kill them.
Operationally, it was a logistical nightmare for a military force with a long tradition of sucking at logistics. The Tiger was a gas guzzler, in a military desperately short of gas. It's engine was very high maintenance as well. If you've seen Kelly's Heroes (the movie) you might remember a bit about how the Tiger's engines needed to be turned over every now and then just to keep them going. This is partially true. In the winter, a tanks needed their engines turned on every now and then to keep them from freezing solid, and the Tiger will guzzle whether it's idle or rolling.
Further, getting Tigers from Point A to Point B was a pain in the ass. The Tiger had interlocking wheels* and the common way of moving a tank, was to remove its treads, put it on a railroad, and let it drive itself down the tracks (no seriously, this is how the Germans moved their super heavy Tanks). This meant removing all the interlocked wheels, replacing them with special railroad wheels, and then driving the Tiger down the tracks. This was compounded when Germany found out Russian train tracks were a different size than their own.
*From Wikipedia for speed; "Removing an inner wheel that had lost its solid rubber tire (a common occurrence) required the removal of up to nine other wheels first." The Interlocking wheels wasted huge amounts of man hours for a surprisingly small number of vehicles.
Tactically; The Tiger's power is horribly overstated. The image we often have of waves of Shermans being blown up and only winning in the end through sheer numbers is a myth. The Tiger was easily disabled by a Sherman. As stated above, their suspension was under a lot of stress at all times and regularly burned out. A shell to their interlocked wheels could bend the wheels, making movement impossible. The turret was also a huge liability, and the Tank Destroyer Force, developed a pretty snap up habit of hitting the turret right where the gun connected to it. This spot was very weak and when hit, often killed the gunner or the commander (sometimes both). The Tiger's gun was indeed exceptional (the 88 in general was a wonder of ballistics), but its straight unslanted armor is overstated. Once Shermans 76mm guns started rolling out, what few Tigers there were just started dropping like flies.*
*The ones not getting blown up by air superiority that is anyway. While a single Typhoon's chances of knocking out a Tiger were kind of 'meh' remember that the Allies could sit back and pound German positions with bombs, rockets, and whatever else they could fit on their vast assortment of aircraft for days. And the Tiger was a awfully big target. Drop enough bombs at the poor thing, one of them is going to blow turret open, its suspension off, something. This is also a huge deal, because the Tiger was heavy. You either repaired it where it dropped, or gave it up, because that thing wasn't gonna get moved if it couldn't move itself.
EDIT: Compared to the Sherman or the T34, the Tiger just wasn't that grand. Shermans and T34s were comparatively cheap, easy to maintain, and generally reliable (barring the Sherman's unfortunate habit of setting itself ablaze). The Tiger might have had quality of fire over them, but was not mobile or armored enough to make up for the amount of fire all the Shermans and T34s (and airplanes) could send its way. And there were so few Tigers, their impact on any given battle was kind of irrelevant. They just had no way to make up for constantly being blown to bits compared to how much it cost to make one.
So... why was it bad again?
In a vacuum, the Tiger might be considered an amazing machine, but in the overall context of the war, it wasn't.
They may have had plans, but that had no planes...
This. By 1944, there was no Luftwaffe worth talking about.
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This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2014/11/18 15:23:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 15:19:54
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Alpharius wrote: the shrouded lord wrote:I liked it. there was a moment at the end when i thought the sarge (or commander) was going to shoot himself which ticked me off, but shooting a Nazi is good. i found the morality in the film interesting, and the death of the two civilian women to be actually quite hillariious. I'm a terrible person like that.
That's a really distasteful thing to say.
I can't honestly believe you think it is hilarious - that would be wrong on many, many levels.
yes you are correct, less hilarious, more... trollish.
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*Insert witty and/or interesting statement here* |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 15:40:21
Subject: Re:Anyone see Fury?
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Grey Templar wrote:Its not the same as seeing them in person.
Everyone should visit the Patton museum at least once. Sooo cool.
It don't exist no more, at least not as you are remembering it. When the Armor school moved to Benning (now the Maneuver Center of Excellence) the armor museum pretty much shut down, and is in the process of being set up with the new Infantry Museum (which is phenomenal). I don't think the Armor portions are open yet (I didn't have a chance to check when there a few weeks ago for Son2's graduation from IBOLC).
EDIT: Yep, the collection has moved, new building not up yet.
http://www.army.mil/article/63301/Final_Armor_School_museum_vehicles_arrive/
http://www.armorcavalrymuseum.org/
In 2011, the Armor Center and School completed it's move from Fort Knox, KY, to Fort Benning, GA, to form the Maneuver Center of Excellence. Included in that move was the Armor Collection, which was displayed at the Patton Museum.
Future
The museum will be a core component of the Maneuver Center of Excellence as both an educational resource and center for study of the history of the Mounted Force. It will also take a central role in supporting unit, organization, and Soldier history and heritage, and provide the public with a window to the Army--in particular, it's mounted warriors, their history, and their role in national development.
While the museum will provide modern storage, maintenance, and exhibit capabilities for the more than 9000 micro artifacts and 380 macro artifacts in the Armor Collection, it will also provide resources in support of ongoing research and development of doctrine, policy and equipment.
We appreciate your support
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 15:46:56
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 16:55:50
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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[DCM]
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So, bringing this back around, sort of...
...what would be a good WWII "Tank" movie then?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 17:12:16
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Alpharius wrote:So, bringing this back around, sort of...
...what would be a good WWII "Tank" movie then?
I would like to see a movie centered around the Battle of Arracourt or the Rhine crossing at Remagen.
I would like to see the movie focus not on a single crew, but on a company commander, with BN CDR and platoons having roles, so we get a bit of the bigger picture but are still in the middle of the action. I think at the BN and CO CDR level we start to see more interesting decisions than at the single crew level.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 17:13:25
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Alpharius wrote:So, bringing this back around, sort of... ...what would be a good WWII "Tank" movie then? A Bridge Too Far. Lots of tanks....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/18 17:16:29
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 17:13:55
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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I'd totally love a Band of Brothers (but with tanks) TV miniseries. That be pretty bA.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 17:17:59
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Do the Rooskies have one? I'd bet they'd be all over that.
I know there were several history chennel type episodes inside tanks, and about tanks.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 17:20:10
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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Someone should make a throwback to the old War Epics like Battle of the Bulge, A Bridge Too Far, and The Longest Day. Those old 3 hour bits that had characters from every level of command.
I've always wanted a good movie about the Battle of Kursk myself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:06:14
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Grim Rune Priest in the Eye of the Storm
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I would love to see one about the M18 Hellcats that held off the Panzers at the "Battle of the Bulge"
I think it would work if the "Battle of the Bulge" was just a backdrop.
But then I am prejudiced towards the Hellcat
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/18 19:13:13
Subject: Anyone see Fury?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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On the subject of Fury- trailer didn't sell it for me. Not really a Brad Pitt fan either. It feels like they were hoping he'd hold it all together. Glad I gave it a miss though from some of the comments here.
Tankwise- I'm a fan of anything packing 88s
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