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I love the new formations but I have one question about the most popular formation Skytyrant Swarm.
In the rules it states that the Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle, only glide, so as to stay in unit coherency with the Gargoyle broods. Both the Hive Tyrant and Gargoyles separately can arrive by Deep Strike but can they arrive by Deep Strike if using the formation? The reason I ask is because Flying Monstrous creatures when arriving by strike are considered to be swooping so when they arrive they can only be snapped shot in the first turn it arrives in. This doesn't mean the Tyranid player voluntarily uses the swooping ability and will of course only use the Hive Tyrant as a jump Monstrous creature during every and any movement phase in order to abide by the formation rules, only that when the formation Deep Strikes in the beginning it's considered to have arrived swooping but of course goes straight to gliding. As per Deep Strike rules no "movement" is allowed so technically the Hive Tyrant hasn't made a swooping movement in the battle on the table top at any part of the game.
I would appreciate it if you could confirm this. I know this will become a common FAQ as the interpretation is a bit fuzzy.
Eihnlazer wrote: if they would deep strike, they would have to do it together since they are one unit.
So really, the only issue here is whether you believe or not a hive tyrant can deep strike.
That's what I assume, and yes the Hive Tyrant can naturally deep strike due to being a fly Monstrous creature/jump Monstrous creature giving the deep strike ability.
Eihnlazer wrote: if they would deep strike, they would have to do it together since they are one unit.
So really, the only issue here is whether you believe or not a hive tyrant can deep strike.
That is a lesser question really. The FMC would arrive Swooping iirc, which it cannot do being in that formation.
That's partially correct as its considered to have swooped in before battle and landing stationary (gliding) as it is able to charge the next turn after deep striking which highlights the change of flight mode from swooping to gliding, which is considered to be in gliding mode on that first turn of deep striking. As per changing flight modes for flying Monstrous creatures you have to glide first for one turn in order to be able to charge in the next following turn and since from deep striking a flying Monstrous creature and then it being able to charge in its 2nd turn it's assumed that it wasn't swooping in the previous turn i.e. the first turn it arrived by Deep Strike, making it adhering to the unit's coherency with the Gargoyles.
Right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 06:26:11
Eihnlazer wrote: if they would deep strike, they would have to do it together since they are one unit.
So really, the only issue here is whether you believe or not a hive tyrant can deep strike.
That's what I assume, and yes the Hive Tyrant can naturally deep strike due to being a fly Monstrous creature/jump Monstrous creature giving the deep strike ability.
Flyrant is a Flying Monstrous Creature. Whether or not it can Deep Strike is debatable.
Mostly it boils down to:
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
For definitive RAW, we would need the exact wording for the formation, since if the formation says that it can only glide for the game, that also mean it would also be gliding in reserves as well..
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
The rule book, as suggested before, does specifically mention that FMCs can arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, in which case it always arrives in Swooping mode, p68. That seems like definitive permission - it's certainly more specific than the 6E rulebook, and I wonder if some of the debate is a hangover from then.
For the same reason, it's hard to see how it can Glide when arriving on the board via Deep Strike, altho I too would like to see definitive wording from the Leviathan book.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/24 13:02:09
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
The rule book, as suggested before, does specifically mention that FMCs can arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, in which case it always arrives in Swooping mode, p68. That seems like definitive permission - it's certainly more specific than the 6E rulebook, and I wonder if some of the debate is a hangover from then.
For the same reason, it's hard to see how it can Glide when arriving on the board via Deep Strike, altho I too would like to see definitive wording from the Leviathan book.
Oops here is the correct image with the exact wording, have to zoom in a bit.
Thank you for answering the other comment by quoting the rule book about FMC Deep Striking, saves me the time.
And to answer your comment it arrives on deep strike FROM swooping, doesn't say it is swooping. It just retains the snap fire status on the first turn it arrives because how else could a FMC be able to charge on the 2nd turn if it's considered to be swooping on the 1st turn. If that view of it being swooping on the first turn then it wouldn't be able to charge till its 3rd turn which is absolutely ridiculous. We have seen so many battle reports from players and in the white dwarf of FMC arriving by Deep Strike and waiting till the 2nd turn to charge.
With the above in mind it does comply with the rules for the Hive Tyrant to be in coherency with the Gargoyles in the formation.
Wish we had a ruling from GW or the Black Library lol
I think this falls into the "more specific rules trump more general rules" category. FMCs can deepstrike, it says so in their rules. It also says that all FMCs must swoop when DSing. But, it then says that the Skytyrant must glide. This applies only to the Skytrant (so is more specific) than the must Swoop for all FMCs (which is more general)
So, I would say that the unit can deepstrike, and the Flyrant will be gliding, but I also think it's a very bad idea to deepstrike them unless it's some bizarre scenario I can't think of at the moment.
grendel083 wrote: If FMC's can Deep Strike or not isn't really an issue. There's no way to Deep Strike it without breaking a rule.
Deep Striking means it comes on Swooping. Formation prevents Swooping.
Nothing in this formation overrides this. It can't be done.
Instead of throwing up our hands in desperation I suggest we follow the applicable rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Let's change your answer to one that would actually follow from the Basic Versus Advanced Rule. You use that rule to resolve contradictions, not add restrictions that are not there.
If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it Glides.
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Let's change your answer to one that would actually follow from the Basic Versus Advanced Rule. You use that rule to resolve contradictions, not add restrictions that are not there.
If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it Glides.
Please show permission to arrive by Deep Strike while Gliding. Skytyrant does not grant permission to arrive by Deep Strike Gliding.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Let's change your answer to one that would actually follow from the Basic Versus Advanced Rule. You use that rule to resolve contradictions, not add restrictions that are not there.
If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it Glides.
Please show permission to arrive by Deep Strike while Gliding. Skytyrant does not grant permission to arrive by Deep Strike Gliding.
Per rules, the FMC always has Deep Strike.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Indeed the FMC is described as 'moving like Jump unit' so indeed it has the Deep Strike rule granted.
The basic versus advanced rule sets the mode to Gliding.
First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Not wanting to rewrite again please read the below copy and paste comment of an earlier comment:
And to answer your comment it arrives on deep strike FROM swooping, doesn't say it is swooping. It just retains the snap fire status on the first turn it arrives because how else could a FMC be able to charge on the 2nd turn if it's considered to be swooping on the 1st turn. If that view of it being swooping on the first turn then it wouldn't be able to charge till its 3rd turn which is absolutely ridiculous. We have seen so many battle reports from players and in the white dwarf of FMC arriving by Deep Strike and waiting till the 2nd turn to charge.
Therefore Deep Striking FMC are not considered to have moved in their first turn arriving as swooping. How else can they charge on their 2nd turn. Please address this point and not just over look it.
As per other comments I do concur that the Hive Tyrant can arrive by Deep Strike landing in coherency with the Gargoyles on their first turn. Just because they are in a formation during a battle doesn't mean they are in the same formation unit 24/7. Hive Tyrant just arrives into battle from swooping but lands as if gliding to be in coherency.
Happyjew wrote: First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
Deep Strike is always on the FMC. It deep strikes in. Basic versus advanced just sorts what mode the flyrant is in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 21:31:13
Happyjew wrote: First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
Deep Strike is always on the FMC. It deep strikes in.
Col_Impact. That thread just got locked, lets not restart it.
From 'Deployment' under the 'Flying Monstrous Creatures' rules:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
'... counts as being in Swooping mode...' equals '... is Swooping...'
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Happyjew wrote: First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
Deep Strike is always on the FMC. It deep strikes in.
Col_Impact. That thread just got locked, lets not restart it.
There is a restriction that the Tyrant cannot be Swooping. If the Tyrant DS's, then it is Swooping. Therefore the Tyrant cannot DS, because it would violate the Formations rule.
So whether TFMC's can DS is irrelevant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 21:34:41
There is a restriction that the Tyrant cannot be Swooping. If the Tyrant DS's, then it is Swooping. Therefore the Tyrant cannot DS, because it would violate the Formations rule.
So whether TFMC's can DS is irrelevant.
The BRB sets the mode to swooping. The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
This rule can't take hold until after the FMC actually arrives via Deep Strike. At that point it gets hammered by the Formation rule.
Deep Strike > Swoop > Glide
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 21:42:27
col_impact wrote: The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
Because the codex does not set the Deep Strike mode to gliding. The Deep Strike mode is still Swooping, which the FMC is no longer permitted to use.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
col_impact wrote: The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
Because the codex does not set the Deep Strike mode to gliding. The Deep Strike mode is still Swooping, which the FMC is no longer permitted to use.
Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS on the FMC having been granted it by the rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
I check to see whether the unit is described as moving like jump and indeed it is described as moving like jump. Deep Strike is granted since the description 'moving like jump' is on the FMC entry.
Whether Swooping or Gliding or on a Tuesday or on a boat, the FMC has Deep Strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 21:48:49
And that doesn't stop something that will forbid you from using it.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
col_impact wrote: The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
Because the codex does not set the Deep Strike mode to gliding. The Deep Strike mode is still Swooping, which the FMC is no longer permitted to use.
Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS on the FMC having been granted it by the rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
I check to see whether the unit is described as moving like jump and indeed it is described as moving like jump. Deep Strike is granted since the description 'moving like jump' is on the FMC entry.
Whether Swooping or Gliding or on a Tuesday or on a boat, the FMC has Deep Strike.
Why are you still on the DS rule. Your obviously not reading the arguments. The Tyrant DS's in Swoop mode. That is a violation of the MF rule. Your making up the whole "codex changes its flight mode" part of the rule.
