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Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 22:57:10
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
DeathReaper wrote: Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
The Deep Striking rule does not force the FMC into a flight mode. AFTER the Deep Strike happens, an FMC rule attempts to put the FMC into Swooping mode. If this conflicts in some way with some more advanced rule, then the rules give us express permission to handle the situation with the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Guys, if you want to have a counter-argument, you need to show step by step how you arrive at the argument you are advancing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 23:04:30
DeathReaper wrote: Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
The Deep Striking rule does not force the FMC into a flight mode. AFTER the Deep Strike happens, an FMC rule attempts to put the FMC into Swooping mode. If this conflicts in some way with some more advanced rule, then the rules give us express permission to handle the situation with the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Guys, if you want to have a counter-argument, you need to show step by step how you arrive at the argument you are advancing.
it is largely irrelevant when you break the rule.
if you take actions that result in rules being broken, you can not take those actions.
AFTER the Deep Strike happens a rule is broken because of the DS action. Because of the FMC using DS they wind up breaking a rule. and that is why you can not DS because we should break no rule.
Basic Versus Advanced Rule does not enter into this situation, because the formation does not give an allowance for the MC's to break the rule of Swooping after DS.
There are two restrictions, they must both be followed, ergo no DS in the formation.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
col_impact wrote: Swooping is applied AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking by an FMC rule.
Repeating the same thing ad nauseum doesn't make it true. Once again, here's the rule:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
"Arrives" is present tense. It occurs at the same time as the Deep Strike. For it to be 'after the fact' as you keep insisting the wording would have to be "... that has arrived..." Once again, you're wrong.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
DeathReaper wrote: Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
The Deep Striking rule does not force the FMC into a flight mode. AFTER the Deep Strike happens, an FMC rule attempts to put the FMC into Swooping mode. If this conflicts in some way with some more advanced rule, then the rules give us express permission to handle the situation with the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Guys, if you want to have a counter-argument, you need to show step by step how you arrive at the argument you are advancing.
it is largely irrelevant when you break the rule.
if you take actions that result in rules being broken, you can not take those actions.
AFTER the Deep Strike happens a rule is broken because of the DS action. Because of the FMC using DS they wind up breaking a rule. and that is why you can not DS because we should break no rule.
Basic Versus Advanced Rule does not enter into this situation, because the formation does not give an allowance for the MC's to break the rule of Swooping after DS.
There are two restrictions, they must both be followed, ergo no DS in the formation.
You need to show step by step your counter argument. There is nothing forbidding Deep Strike and when a Deep Strike happens the rules step by step come to the result that I showed.
Basic Vs Advanced is expressly allowed by the rules for these kind of situations.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
If you are unable to demonstrate your argument step by step with rules then you have no RAW argument.
col_impact wrote: Swooping is applied AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking by an FMC rule.
Repeating the same thing ad nauseum doesn't make it true. Once again, here's the rule:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
"Arrives" is present tense. It occurs at the same time as the Deep Strike. For it to be 'after the fact' as you keep insisting the wording would have to be "... that has arrived..." Once again, you're wrong.
If it arrives it has indeed Deep Struck. It would have to say "is arriving." You don't assign Swooping to a unit that fails to Deep Strike onto the board. This is basic and obvious that the Deep Strike needs to resolve before the unit can be acted upon with other rules.
Again, you seem to be acting upon a rule that you have made up.
"In order for an FMC to arrive via Deep Strike, it must arrive by Swooping"
That rule does not exist.
Feel free to work step by step through the rules and advance a counter argument. I am the only one so far who has advanced a full RAW argument.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/26 01:10:09
col_impact wrote: You need to show step by step your counter argument. There is nothing forbidding Deep Strike and when a Deep Strike happens the rules step by step come to the result that I showed. .
Your arguments are incorrect.
Step by step counter argument? not needed, these facts below will show that you break a rule if you try to use the deep strike rules for the FMC in the formation.
There is something forbidding the DS.
The fact that the FMC needs to be in swooping mode and can not be in swooping mode.
When "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (Unit Types chapter, Flying Monstrous Creatures section, Deployment sub-section)
The rules for the formation say that only gliding mode can be chosen.
The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle, only glide...
Ergo, when "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." breaks the rule of The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle... then a Flying Monstrous Creature can not arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, since it always counts as being in Swooping mode when it does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 01:19:06
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
col_impact wrote: You need to show step by step your counter argument. There is nothing forbidding Deep Strike and when a Deep Strike happens the rules step by step come to the result that I showed.
.
Your arguments are incorrect.
Step by step counter argument? not needed, these facts below will show that you break a rule if you try to use the deep strike rules for the FMC in the formation.
There is something forbidding the DS.
The fact that the FMC needs to be in swooping mode and can not be in swooping mode.
When "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (This is true)
The rules for the formation say that only gliding mode can be chosen.
The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle, only glide...
Ergo, when "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." breaks the rule of The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle... then a Flying Monstrous Creature can not arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, since it always counts as being in Swooping mode when it does.
I have shown step by step that my argument works and is justified by the rules. Therefore it is proven and sound
You refuse to show your argument step by step. Therefore your argument is unproven and possibly unsound.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 01:26:50
I didn't want to wade back into an argument that has become so ridiculous, but I am curious if anyone addressed a concern of mine: If the Deep Strike Special Rule is being over-ridden, how is the Rule still being applied?
Putting aside the fact this does not meet the requirements of 'conflict' as far as this site is concerned, I am going to have to raise that point once more. If we are to apply Advanced Vs Basic to this situation, then we will need to do exactly what Basic vs Advanced informs us to do and no more. It allows us to over-ride a Rule which has created the conflict, it doesn't say that we have permission to over-write part of a Rule as it does not state to over-ride just the instructions creating the conflict. If the instruction creating the conflict is found within the Deep Strike Special Rule then we would have to over-write the Deep Strike Special Rule....
So how do we have a Deep Strike Special Rule to apply to the situation?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 01:40:17
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
JinxDragon wrote: I didn't want to wade back into an argument that has become so ridiculous, but I am curious if anyone addressed a concern of mine:
If the Deep Strike Special Rule is being over-ridden, how is the Rule still being applied?
Putting aside the fact this does not meet the requirements of 'conflict' as far as this site is concerned, I am going to have to raise that point once more. If we are to apply Advanced Vs Basic to this situation, then we will need to do exactly what Basic vs Advanced informs us to do and no more. It allows us to over-ride a Rule which has created the conflict, it doesn't say that we have permission to over-write part of a Rule as it does not state to over-ride just the instructions creating the conflict. If the instruction creating the conflict is found within the Deep Strike Special Rule then we would have to over-write the Deep Strike Special Rule....
So how do we have a Deep Strike Special Rule to apply to the situation?
The Deep Strike Special Rule is not being over-ridden. Deep Strike happens without a problem. If there is a conflict it happens after the Deep Strike.
This is the rule that would be overridden by the MF rule (can only glide) per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
JinxDragon, feel free to work through step by step a counter-argument.
Keep in mind there are also other areas on the FMC entry that the Flyrant MF rule would have to hammer.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 01:55:22
The "conflict" is caused because of a clause found in the Deep Strike Special Rule, is it not correct to state that we wouldn't have a problem if it wasn't for the existence of that one clause?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 02:00:02
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
grendel083 wrote: "Arrives" is present tense, not past tense.
It happens while its arriving from Deep Strike, not after.
Otherwise it would be "arrived".
I think you need to focus on what arrives means. It means its there because it has Deep Struck there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: The "conflict" is caused because of a clause found in the Deep Strike Special Rule, if that set of instructions did not exist there would be no problem correct?
What clause in the Deep Strike rule?
Keep in mind there are also other areas on the FMC entry that the Flyrant MF rule would have to hammer.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/26 02:01:38
The whole 'counts as Swooping' which creates the problem in the first place.... Where are those instructions located?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 02:03:58
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
I have shown step by step that my argument works and is justified by the rules. Therefore it is proven and sound
This is, of course, 100% false.
You have not shown where the allowance to switch from swooping to gliding is in the rules.
Care to cite the rule that states you can glide when deep Striking?
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
Col_Impact,
I did painstakingly remember where the clause is located, but that only creates even more issues....
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
I have shown step by step that my argument works and is justified by the rules. Therefore it is proven and sound
This is, of course, 100% false.
You have not shown where the allowance to switch from swooping to gliding is in the rules.
Care to cite the rule that states you can glide when deep Striking?
Man you are off in your own world. Deep Strike does not require swooping or gliding. If it did, I don't know how Terminators would ever Deep Strike.
Never said Deep Strike requires swooping or gliding...
However it is a fact that If a FMC performs a Deep Strike and it "arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (Unit Types chapter, Flying Monstrous Creatures section, Deployment sub-section)
So Swooping mode is an intrinsic part of a FMC deep striking. It is required to be in Swooping mode when it arrives via Deep Strike Reserve.
Something that can not be achieved with the formation.
Ergo, saying that your arguments are "justified by the rules" is 100% false.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 02:14:23
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
col_impact wrote: Man you are off in your own world. Deep Strike does not require swooping or gliding. If it did, I don't know how Terminators would ever Deep Strike.
He never claimed it was required.
But while arriving from Deep Strike (present tense) the FMC is made to be Swooping.
MF rule forbids it Swooping, but gives no indication how to fix this conflict. Game breaks. Staying in Swoop breaks the MF rule, going into Glide breaks FMC rule.
Only legal course, choose not to Deep Strike.
Once arrives happens, the unit is there on the board, having Deep Struck in. This is basic reading comprehension and semantics.
It doesn't say "once arrives happens"', or "has arrived". You're adding a time frame not present in the rules.
col_impact wrote: Man you are off in your own world. Deep Strike does not require swooping or gliding. If it did, I don't know how Terminators would ever Deep Strike.
He never claimed it was required.
But while arriving from Deep Strike (present tense) the FMC is made to be Swooping.
MF rule forbids it Swooping, but gives no indication how to fix this conflict. Game breaks. Staying in Swoop breaks the MF rule, going into Glide breaks FMC rule.
Only legal course, choose not to Deep Strike.
Once arrives happens, the unit is there on the board, having Deep Struck in. This is basic reading comprehension and semantics.
It doesn't say "once arrives happens"', or "has arrived". You're adding a time frame not present in the rules.
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
The rule speaks for itself. If you are having trouble with the semantics then there is very little chance you can follow the logic. The conditional can only be applied after resolution of Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So guys, I keep asking you all to come forward and produce a step by step counter argument and so far no one has come forward to produce such an argument.
Does this mean your counter argument falls apart if you try to actually resolve it logically step by step?
I think it does.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Remember this is a sequential rules based game we are playing so its kind of a big deal if you cant actually resolve your argument logically step by step.
Kind of a big deal.
Yep.
Unlike some of you, I am not entrenched in my argument. If someone produces a better step by step argument than my argument I will gladly concede and adopt the then better argument. I always maintain an open mind.
JinxDragon, what say you? You are a cut above the rest in that you keep an open mind and don't become entrenched and obtuse. You got a better step by step argument than mine?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/26 07:32:32
col_impact wrote: If you are having trouble with the semantics then there is very little chance you can follow the logic.
Insulting anyone that disagrees? Classy.
So guys, I keep asking you all to come forward and produce a step by step counter argument and so far no one has come forward to produce such an argument.
You've had many such answers. You have just ignored them. Scroll back, read a few that you dodged.
You don't answer questions, you dodge any point you don't agree with, insist on step by step where previously you opposed it. You're rude and impossible to have any reasonable debate with. Not even slightly open-minded.
It's not that people don't have answers, it's that they're tired of answering you. No more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/26 08:33:18
rigeld2 wrote: You've failed to show conflict resolution. You just asserted what should happen with no evidence as to why (other than we should trust you?). You've also failed, repeatedly, to show why your timing argument is relevant. A rule is broken because of a decision. Why are you allowed to choose to break a rule there, but moving 7" with a Tac Squad is right out?
A rules conflct between sources happens AFTER the Deep Strike. Per the rules, we implement the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve any conflict.
You continuously assert that the timing is relevant. It's not.
You continuously assert that BvA resolves the conflict. It doesn't.
You've failed to prove either assertion - you just repeat the same things over and over.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Col_Impact,
I ran your argument through an open mind and the best case scenario I can see is a 'No Rules to proceed, game crashes' outcome...
I will type up more of an explanation when I get to work.
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.
If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?
Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.
I think this sums up the complete lack of understanding.
Col_Impact, What you have done to this thread is push it towards a curiosity I have raised a few times in the past:
We currently have permission to carry out action X Outcome Y is always illegal, regardless of how it occurs Action X will end up creating Y, at some point in the future Can we complete action X?
Very few people have answered that question for me, I can't remember one doing so directly, but the general consensus is: No. There is a strong belief in a Fundamental Concept that dictates players must do everything in their power to avoid creating illegal outcomes. It is not a Rule as Written answer but it is one that you will find most players adhere to and why you are encountering so much resistance explaining this idea. Personally, the very fact that I am typing out these words is testimony to how poorly written these Rules are, for one would expect these Rules to have been previewed by an Editor to ensure one of their players can not 'crash the game' at a whim. Curious how the most problems with this concept all relate to Deep Strike....
As for Rule as Written, the problem still stems from applying Basic vs Advanced. Basic vs Advanced does not grant us permission to ignore individual Clauses within a Rule, nor does it grant us permission to re-write a Rule in order to avoid the conflict. In this scenario, we end up loosing access to the Rule which grants us permission to choose a flight mode as that clause is found within the same Rule as the one creating the conflict. The next point in the time line where we are granted permission to choose a Flight Mode is when the Monster begins to Move, not even the start of the Movement Phase but the individual Model's Movement itself. This leaves us with a period where the Flying Monstrous Creature is in neither Flight Modes, which is also a violation of the Rule but one we can not resolve... we would need to create a Rule but we only have permission to remove Rules under Basic vs Advanced.
Lacking the ability to choose the correct Flight Mode at that point in time ensures we end up in a black hole because we can never select the Flight Mode required by the Restriction....
As for the other issues, such as selecting to Swoop when the choice is given? Just much faster trip into the black hole, it is only when you choose the option that does not create the conflict that you by-pass the issue entirely.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/26 18:12:02
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.
