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nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.

I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.

So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.

Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode

There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way

Refusal what, four now?

What is the rule that is being broken?

col_impact wrote:

Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both. So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.

Actually, it's not "the conflict for you" - it's the conflict.
There is no rule in the formation removing Swooping.
There is no rule in the formation setting a FMC to Gliding.

Please cite an actual rule to support your "strict RAW" statement - what rule removes the Swooping mode, and what mode would the FMC be in?

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.

I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.

So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.

Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode

There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way

Refusal what, four now?

What is the rule that is being broken?

DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.

I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.

So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.

Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode

There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way

Refusal what, four now?

What is the rule that is being broken?

DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?

You need to state your problem clearly. How is the Deep Strike rule being broken?

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.

If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRB FMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.

Im familiar with the Basic Vs. Advance rule, you don't have to keep repeating it.

Yet the rule in question doesn't give a resolution to the conflict. You're taking 1+1 and getting 3.

It can only Glide yet gives no indication on how it interacts with a rule that forces Swooping. It's an assumption that it will force Gliding on a FMC that must be Swooping, the rule never States it.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both. So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.

Actually, it's not "the conflict for you" - it's the conflict.
There is no rule in the formation removing Swooping.
There is no rule in the formation setting a FMC to Gliding.

Please cite an actual rule to support your "strict RAW" statement - what rule removes the Swooping mode, and what mode would the FMC be in?

If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRB FMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.

I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.

So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.

Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode

There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way

Refusal what, four now?

What is the rule that is being broken?

DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?

You need to state your problem clearly. How is the Deep Strike rule being broken?

Done playing your games, you are aware of the issue, and your failure to argue honestly is noted.

You're done here. RAW you must break no rule, therefore cannot try to DS with this formation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.

I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.

So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.

Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode

There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way

Refusal what, four now?

What is the rule that is being broken?

DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?

You need to state your problem clearly. How is the Deep Strike rule being broken?

Done playing your games, you are aware of the issue, and your failure to argue honestly is noted.

You're done here. RAW you must break no rule, therefore cannot try to DS with this formation.

I ask you to state your problem clearly and you refuse to do so. You are the one that is done here, sir.

The problem was stated many times, clearly, and you deflect instead of answering.

7 pages in and your argument is still as watertight as a colander.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.

If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRB FMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.

Im familiar with the Basic Vs. Advance rule, you don't have to keep repeating it.

Yet the rule in question doesn't give a resolution to the conflict. You're taking 1+1 and getting 3.

It can only Glide yet gives no indication on how it interacts with a rule that forces Swooping. It's an assumption that it will force Gliding on a FMC that must be Swooping, the rule never States it.

I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The problem was stated many times, clearly, and you deflect instead of answering.

7 pages in and your argument is still as watertight as a colander.

You are the one that is deflecting. State clearly the rule that is being broken or the problem you are having. If you cannot state things clearly then you should ask yourself if you have the ability to participate in debates.

col_impact wrote:
I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.

Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.

Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.

The rule says "override" and "take precedence". That's a hammer.

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.

Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.

Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.

Since you obviously haven’t been paying attention, from the ‘Skytyrant Swarm’ formation rules…

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

… and from the Flying Monstrous Creatures rules:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Now answer the question you’ve so far refused to answer. If you Deep Strike you’re Swooping and thus breaking the ‘Monstrous Flock’ rule. If you Deep Strike and claim you’re in Gliding Flight mode you’ve broken the ‘Flying Monstrous Creatures’ rule. So for the umpteenth time, how can the FMC Deep Strike and not break either rule?

 Ghaz wrote:
Since you obviously haven’t been paying attention, from the ‘Skytyrant Swarm’ formation rules…

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

… and from the Flying Monstrous Creatures rules:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Now answer the question you’ve so far refused to answer. If you Deep Strike you’re Swooping and thus breaking the ‘Monstrous Flock’ rule. If you Deep Strike and claim you’re in Gliding Flight mode you’ve broken the ‘Flying Monstrous Creatures’ rule. So for the umpteenth time, how can the FMC Deep Strike and not break either rule?

Careful, that won't be clear enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.

Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.

Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.

If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?

Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.

Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.

Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.

If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?

Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.

You misread.
There's a conflict. There's no conflict resolution.

Your argument is based on an assumption of what should happen rather than any actual rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
Since you obviously haven’t been paying attention, from the ‘Skytyrant Swarm’ formation rules…

Monstrous Flock:

The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.

… and from the Flying Monstrous Creatures rules:

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Now answer the question you’ve so far refused to answer. If you Deep Strike you’re Swooping and thus breaking the ‘Monstrous Flock’ rule. If you Deep Strike and claim you’re in Gliding Flight mode you’ve broken the ‘Flying Monstrous Creatures’ rule. So for the umpteenth time, how can the FMC Deep Strike and not break either rule?

Deep Strike happens. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking this rule applies Swooping mode.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

If that BRB rule is in conflict with a more Advanced rule, we know what to do. The rules TELL US to apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule in these situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.

Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.

Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.

If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?

Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.

You misread.
There's a conflict. There's no conflict resolution.

Your argument is based on an assumption of what should happen rather than any actual rules.

I am the one working step by step through the rules and quoting rules and justifying each step with rules.

col_impact wrote:
Deep Strike happens. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking this rule applies Swooping mode.

Which again, makes no difference. You've still performed a voluntary action that causes a rule to be broken. So again, how do you Deep Strike without causing any rule to be broken.

You've failed to show conflict resolution. You just asserted what should happen with no evidence as to why (other than we should trust you?). You've also failed, repeatedly, to show why your timing argument is relevant. A rule is broken because of a decision. Why are you allowed to choose to break a rule there, but moving 7" with a Tac Squad is right out?

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Deep Strike happens. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking this rule applies Swooping mode.

Which again, makes no difference. You've still performed a voluntary action that causes a rule to be broken. So again, how do you Deep Strike without causing any rule to be broken.

Deep Strike happens without breaking any rule. There is a rule conflict in the FMC rules and the MF rules about what happens AFTER the Deep Strike. The rules TELL US what to do in those situations (Basic Vs Advanced).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
You've failed to show conflict resolution. You just asserted what should happen with no evidence as to why (other than we should trust you?). You've also failed, repeatedly, to show why your timing argument is relevant. A rule is broken because of a decision. Why are you allowed to choose to break a rule there, but moving 7" with a Tac Squad is right out?

A rules conflct between sources happens AFTER the Deep Strike. Per the rules, we implement the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve any conflict.

Assertion with no proof, again. Quite repetitive this.

Vote for letting it die? A refusal to engage honestly for 7 pages is quite telling.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Assertion with no proof, again. Quite repetitive this.

Vote for letting it die? A refusal to engage honestly for 7 pages is quite telling.

I have resolved the issue step by step using the rules all the way. If I am debating RAW with people who don't adhere to the rules or the logic of the rules or are being obtuse and entrenched, then I can't help but be repetitive.



The problem with your counter-argument is that you are trying to prevent the Deep Strike from happening with a conflict that arises AFTER the Deep Strike has happened. Nothing prevents the player from Deep Striking. So it isn't until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking that a conflict can be acted upon. The rules don't let us undo steps that have happened to repair the game state. The rules TELL US to resolve conflicts with Advanced over Basic Rules.

col_impact wrote:
Deep Strike happens without breaking any rule. There is a rule conflict in the FMC rules and the MF rules about what happens AFTER the Deep Strike. The rules TELL US what to do in those situations (Basic Vs Advanced).

Patently false. The rule quoted applies when the FMC "arrives", not "after arriving". Deep Striking the Hive Tyrant breaks the rules. On top of that, there is no conflict. There is no 'must' versus 'must'. A voluntary action will always be disallowed if it breaks a rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Deep Strike happens without breaking any rule. There is a rule conflict in the FMC rules and the MF rules about what happens AFTER the Deep Strike. The rules TELL US what to do in those situations (Basic Vs Advanced).

Patently false. The rule quoted applies when the FMC "arrives", not "after arriving". Deep Striking the Hive Tyrant breaks the rules. On top of that, there is no conflict. There is no 'must' versus 'must'. A voluntary action will always be disallowed if it breaks a rule.

"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

There is no ambiguity in that sentence. The FMC has to have indeed Deep Struck in for the latter part of the rule to apply.

There is no rule that says "In order for a Flying Monstrous Creature to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, it must arrive in Swooping mode."

I do not think this point of discussion can be accurately described as "basic versus advanced" as that is not the issue really.

the deep strike rules for a FMC state they always count as being in swooping mode.

the rules for skytyrant state it can "only use gliding mode"

there is no actual conflict here, as the skytyrant rules do not give an exception to being able to only use gliding mode despite being required to be swooping.

in otherwords:

stating something my do something optional that requires it to always be in state 1 when it can only be in state 0, means it cannot do it.

to say that it can is the same as saying that the hive tyrant can count all the benefits for being in swooping mode each turn but counts as gliding.

there is just no rules support that the HT may DS in this situation.

If the skytyrant rule said something about DS in reference to always only gliding, then it would indeed be a case of basic versus advanced, but the omission of that means it cannot be said that this is an argument of basic versus advanced.

because its not.

blaktoof wrote:
I do not think this point of discussion can be accurately described as "basic versus advanced" as that is not the issue really.

the deep strike rules for a FMC state they always count as being in swooping mode.

the rules for skytyrant state it can "only use gliding mode"

there is no actual conflict here, as the skytyrant rules do not give an exception to being able to only use gliding mode despite being required to be swooping.

in otherwords:

stating something my do something optional that requires it to always be in state 1 when it can only be in state 0, means it cannot do it.

to say that it can is the same as saying that the hive tyrant can count all the benefits for being in swooping mode each turn but counts as gliding.

there is just no rules support that the HT may DS in this situation.

If the skytyrant rule said something about DS in reference to always only gliding, then it would indeed be a case of basic versus advanced, but the omission of that means it cannot be said that this is an argument of basic versus advanced.

because its not.

The Deep Strike is in no ways dependent on a Flight mode. The Deep Strike is allowed to happen. It happens. Resolving the internal rules step by step of the Deep Strike in no ways depend on Swooping. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking a rule kicks in and a Flight mode is attempted to be applied. It's debatable whether a conflict arises. If there is a conflict, we know what to do per the rules.

I believe the primary hanging point is he is reading the rules as such:

The FMC is in glide mode, but "counts as" swooping.

Is there somewhere in the BRB that better defines "counts as" than the English definition?

col_impact wrote:
The Deep Strike is in no ways dependent on a Flight mode. The Deep Strike is allowed to happen. It happens. Resolving the internal rules step by step of the Deep Strike in no ways depend on Swooping. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking a rule kicks in and a Flight mode is attempted to be applied. It's debatable whether a conflict arises. If there is a conflict, we know what to do per the rules.

Utterly false. The Deep Strike is dependent on the flight mode. If you can't Swoop you can't Deep Strike because Deep Striking forces you into a flight mode you're not allowed to use. You can't voluntarily break a rule which is exactly what you're trying to do, and the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule does not cover the situation because the 'Monstrous Flock' rule does not allow the Hive Tyrant to Glide in a situation where he must Swoop.

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Deep Strike is in no ways dependent on a Flight mode. The Deep Strike is allowed to happen. It happens. Resolving the internal rules step by step of the Deep Strike in no ways depend on Swooping. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking a rule kicks in and a Flight mode is attempted to be applied. It's debatable whether a conflict arises. If there is a conflict, we know what to do per the rules.

Utterly false. The Deep Strike is dependent on the flight mode. If you can't Swoop you can't Deep Strike because Deep Striking forces you into a flight mode you're not allowed to use. You can't voluntarily break a rule which is exactly what you're trying to do, and the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule does not cover the situation because the 'Monstrous Flock' rule does not allow the Hive Tyrant to Glide in a situation where he must Swoop.

Work step by step through the Deep Strike rules and show me where Swooping matters. Swooping is applied AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking by an FMC rule.

I Deep Strike because nothing is forbidding me from Deep Striking. I work all the way through the Deep Strike rules and resolve Deep Striking. An FMC rule kicks in AFTER THE DEEP STRIKE and tries to apply Swooping. It's debatable whether this causes a conflict. But, if there is a conflict, the rules TELL US exactly what to apply in this situation (Basic Vs Advanced rule).