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 thedarkavenger wrote:


How can I deal with Nagash at 2400?

8 bolt throwers won't kill him.

The ONLY tactic I have is to dwellers/purple sun/pit/final trans him and hope he rolls the six. The same goes for KFA. Or any other End Times combat character.

That is not something which allows for skilled gameplay.

@TDA here's a simple solution for how to deal with it:

Don't!

If you don't like that flavour of cheese, don't deal with it. Ask your opponent to not bring nagash/KFA at that low points level. Just be aware some people also don't like your flavour and you may need to give some concessions on your end such as not taking 8 bolt throwers, but that's the point. Have a dialog & ensure you're both having fun, there has to be some give if you want to take away those bigguns.

My opponents are mostly OK with nagash at 2400 but usually request we play at 3k (no grand armies) so they have more ways to deal with him. That's a dialog. I want to field nagash, they want to play more points so he's less impactful. We agree & play. Granted theres 2 players who hate nagash & don't enjoy playing against him. So I don't take him against them.

My point is if you don't want to play that level of competitive, simply don't. I have seen local tournaments say "No single character over 700 pts" this eliminates KFA & Nagash but still allows for mortarchs & maggoths. Again I feel you ignore parts of peoples statement just to make what you want to say. Remember that GW in their official words does not make or balance the game for tournament play. I like how you changed the word "competitive" and "tournament" to "skilled". I have skilled games even when I'm outnumbered 2:1 on points. It's fun to try out a narrative and it takes skill not to just get crushed by turn 2/3, even if I know there's a very slim if not no chance of me winning. I personally tend to avoid tournaments because I think it puts the emphasis on winning over just having fun. Not to say tournaments aren't fun but I find, for some people, the mindset switches to be too focused on winning even if it comes at the expense of both sides having fun. It rewards players for taking the filthiest list & tabling their opponent turn 2, that's not fun to me no matter what side I'm on so I don't play that type of game. If that's how you have fun in warhammer that is perfectly OK, just find someone who feels similar but don't cry when they take the filthiest list & crush you. Either comp yourselves or find a game that IS designed for tournament play.

If playing End Times characters is not fun for you, then don't. Nobody is forcing you to play against them you have the ability to A.) talk with your opponent beforehand and come to an agreement or B.) find a new opponent. Remember just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. This applies to all sides.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Vetril wrote:
It is reliable. He has less dispel dice. He won't be able to block everything.

He blocks the banishments. He has the dice to make sure of that. Nothing else in the magic phase threatens him with light councils.

And heaven forbid we exchange Nagash for KFA.

You don't cast anything else. Only Banishment.

I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

 brochtree wrote:
I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

Romours are dwarfs are getting some big end times model. Some people have said it may be a big mech / golem but I'd honestly love to see the airship. The dwarfs have to abandon their karaks but they're too besiged so they take to the skys & head off to join the empire.

Airships FTW!

I would love to see an airship in WHFB. Gotrek and Felix rode on one in a couple of books if I remember right. I think that the next book will be about skaven and dwarves. That would add to the already horrific times that are occuring.

Vetril wrote:Ok, but you aren't fielding a regular Dark Elf army. It's a different army. The unit rule is valid for Dark Elf armies.

Vetril wrote:Do you call it Dark Elf army, or Host of the Eternity King army?

I'm starting to suspect you're the reason Malekith is so angry.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I'm starting to suspect you're the reason Malekith is so angry.

Why do you think I play the cool variety of elves?

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 brochtree wrote:
I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

Romours are dwarfs are getting some big end times model. Some people have said it may be a big mech / golem but I'd honestly love to see the airship. The dwarfs have to abandon their karaks but they're too besiged so they take to the skys & head off to join the empire.

The Novels do have huge Golems the Dwarves use gainst Chaos which sound fun - but not them AND airships make a hell of a thing to drop on the enemy

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:

 brochtree wrote:
I want to see Nagash beat Grudge-bearer my dwarven airship. i know it's a special unit from the back of the hard back rule book but i still love it. 5 organ guns to the face. as for where the end times is taking WHFB i have a feeling there plan is to try and make it easier to get in to and try to make it easier to keep all the army's on par with each other. but that is just my personal opinion.

Romours are dwarfs are getting some big end times model. Some people have said it may be a big mech / golem but I'd honestly love to see the airship. The dwarfs have to abandon their karaks but they're too besiged so they take to the skys & head off to join the empire.

Dwarves don't have any multi-wound monsters like every other army, so a war golem would fit quite well. I'm not sure if they would make it a monster or more along the lines of monstrous infantry.

Not sure about an airship - seeing as they already have copters and bombers.

I'd rather it be a monster. I don't want dwarf centurions.

Because if there's one thing every game needs, its a big FU to plop down in the middle when playing that guy you just don't like...

On a less pessimistic note, more options should be a good thing. I floated the idea of fielding my 40k Avatar as Tyrion once, just to try it. But Id rather if Dragons were the top of the scale in WHFB. If I wanted bigger 'n better, I'd play with action figures. Core (and 40k troops) *should* matter.

Troops still do matter. Remember that big monster has no ranks. Steadfast + BSB + General somewhere nearish means I can tie up your 600+ point big nasty for 2-4 turns with a 200 point infantry block.

Vetril wrote:Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
.

See, that's what you're going wrong. You're only fielding a single tiny unit of Glade Guard, when you could be fielding three or four units of a decent size... or even maybe Scouts.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Hahahahahaha. Are you joking me? HE and DE are the two best books in the game right now, period. You have so many tools for dealing with stuff like Nagash that it's ridiculous.

For instance, smash something with Banner of the World Dragon into him and he'll just kersplode. He'll do no wounds against their 2++ and die to combat res if he doens't get killed straight up.

Dark Elves have witches (poison: he's only got a 4+4++), bolt throwers, dark magic (boosted doombolt), peg heroes...heck even Execs could take him down.

Just have some imagination. None of these new characters are particularly ridiculous. A guy in our club runs KFA and he's lost him in 5 out of the past 8 games. The sky is not falling. Think. Adapt. Move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

These sorts of my arguments are my favourite. That's really sad for you that a 150 point core unit can only do what...1/6th of the wounds of a 1,000 point lord. Luckily for you there's a solution for this...instead of taking one unit of glade guard you can just take 8. Now you're doing 12 average wounds to Nagash per turn. Let's see him heal himself up from that.

Same advice to you: Think. Adapt. Move on.

I think the whole fluffy side of thing has some sticking points. I still don't buy malekith as the new phoenix king. Sorry just not me. But overall its a change that made this hobby exciting for me.

I played in 6th (the warbook with teclis on cover 2002?)

To start of my collection since I just do not like the new phoenix guard. (Their helmet crests are too big...) So I just bought a box of the old metal phoenix guards.

Point of this is, that no matter what happens you can just keep fielding the army you want. And just pretend the fluff never happened.

I personally have an opinion that et will climax with the old world being destroyed/reshaped

I also hope that nippon army happens.

I hope Lizards aren't gone! They were my first WFB army.

Not a huge fan of End Times so far, but we'll see how it shakes out. A smaller Old World might be a good thing, if it means everything gets supported.

Aesthetically though, rolling stylistically different armies (like Brets and Empire) together would be pretty jarring on the battle field. Same for Big Hat Elves and Spiky Elves.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Pelas Mir'san wrote:
Strictly my opinion here.

Don't cry about it, become a better general, and develop some strategies to stop him....anything can be beaten.

The only option those models present to me is to roll a super spell and hope he rolls a six.

Case in point, I played against Nagash, and by turn 2 he just had Nagash left. Two turns later, I had 2 peg riders as Nagash proceeded to walk through my entire Dark Elf army, due to my level 4 death cascading a purple sun and falling down the hole.

Nothing in any elf books can kill nagash.

Hahahahahaha. Are you joking me? HE and DE are the two best books in the game right now, period. You have so many tools for dealing with stuff like Nagash that it's ridiculous.

For instance, smash something with Banner of the World Dragon into him and he'll just kersplode. He'll do no wounds against their 2++ and die to combat res if he doens't get killed straight up.

Dark Elves have witches (poison: he's only got a 4+4++), bolt throwers, dark magic (boosted doombolt), peg heroes...heck even Execs could take him down.

Just have some imagination. None of these new characters are particularly ridiculous. A guy in our club runs KFA and he's lost him in 5 out of the past 8 games. The sky is not falling. Think. Adapt. Move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

These sorts of my arguments are my favourite. That's really sad for you that a 150 point core unit can only do what...1/6th of the wounds of a 1,000 point lord. Luckily for you there's a solution for this...instead of taking one unit of glade guard you can just take 8. Now you're doing 12 average wounds to Nagash per turn. Let's see him heal himself up from that.

Same advice to you: Think. Adapt. Move on.

So, what you're saying is that to do well against a summoning army, we have to use all our points to kill one model? Right, I think I'm actually going to dismiss anything you say in the future, as you clearly don't know the meta.

Elves aren't the best two armies out there right now. It's still, and will be, Warriors and Empire. Any army that has zero weak choices, and several strong choices for every phase will always be top.

Take away Bolt throwers and Warlocks, and you cut any dark elf army from being competitive. Take away the Bolt throwers and White Lions, and the high elves only have one competitive build left.

I don't get this End Times stuff.
I mean, can the new End Times units be used in any army, or can it only be used in an End Times army? I don't get it.

I think the name speaks for itself; those are the End Times for Warhammer Battle.

There is nothing to wait from the rules. This is just a toy so that all the Battle fanboys can spend their shinies in worthless things.

I still can't believe what they did with the elves. This is not Apocalypse; this is just GW mocking their customers about their stupidity.

 Sarouan wrote:
I think the name speaks for itself; those are the End Times for Warhammer Battle.

There is nothing to wait from the rules. This is just a toy so that all the Battle fanboys can spend their shinies in worthless things.

I still can't believe what they did with the elves. This is not Apocalypse; this is just GW mocking their customers about their stupidity.

I quite like the ET fluff. The rules are an abortion.

Can't keep up with old codices, but printing new books that have almost nothing to do with anything else? GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's a bit flippant, but I mean come on! They could have spent all this time doing a new Skaven book or a new Brettonians... Nope instead were doing EoT and putting rules for new models in WD...

darkcloak wrote:
Can't keep up with old codices, but printing new books that have almost nothing to do with anything else? GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's a bit flippant, but I mean come on! They could have spent all this time doing a new Skaven book or a new Brettonians... Nope instead were doing EoT and putting rules for new models in WD...

I'm totally in agreement with this. I mean, the End Times is pretty cool and, although I don't like the fact it's not an expansion, it has taken the game in some interesting new directions, plus advanced the storyline, which I know has made a lot of people happy.

However, I don't want this stuff to replace the normal, run-of-the-mill army books and "normal" rules (the backbone of the game) which really make the game what it is. This new Skaven End Times book, plus the models it contains, will be a great companion (and sales boost) for a new Skaven Army Book. However, if it replaces one, I'm afraid my support for the End Times will drop to a new low.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

Vetril wrote:
Unfortunately, a unit of 12 Glade Guard can reliably put only 1.5 wounds on Nagash during a single turn; Nagash can then easily heal it up during his magic phase. At 150+ points, the poisonous Glade Guard aren't exactly cheap, nor resilient enough to survive the battle.
Nagash only needs to summon a few zombies right next to the archers to buy himself some time, or to direct a magic projectile at them to outright kill most of the models.
With the new rules, however, you have a few ways to kill him.

1. Tyrion, avatar of Khaine: he wields a weapon that wounds automatically and deals d6 multiple wounds. It's better than a cannonball. Nagash can only save with his Ward Save of 4+.
2. Banishment: now you can spam it more than once per turn. Denies Nagash's armor, deals 3d6 hits, makes Nagash repeat his successful Ward Saves.
3. Searing Doom: d6 hits that wound on 4+. Spamming that is much better than trying to cast Final Transmutation and hope that Nagash rolls a 6.

---

TDA, I stated my opinion about the bolt throwers.

These sorts of my arguments are my favourite. That's really sad for you that a 150 point core unit can only do what...1/6th of the wounds of a 1,000 point lord. Luckily for you there's a solution for this...instead of taking one unit of glade guard you can just take 8. Now you're doing 12 average wounds to Nagash per turn. Let's see him heal himself up from that.

Same advice to you: Think. Adapt. Move on.

I think you don't play wood elves. You are missing the fact that glade guard is not very mobile, fold really fast under any kind of pressure, and is expensive in points. Glade guard's role is not to go out and shoot Nagash, because all those shots will be wasted, while they could be put to good use somewhere else.
FYI, I have no problem killing Nagash with elves, as I said in that quoted post, so maybe you want to read the content more carefully.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


So, what you're saying is that to do well against a summoning army, we have to use all our points to kill one model? Right, I think I'm actually going to dismiss anything you say in the future, as you clearly don't know the meta.

Elves aren't the best two armies out there right now. It's still, and will be, Warriors and Empire. Any army that has zero weak choices, and several strong choices for every phase will always be top.

Take away Bolt throwers and Warlocks, and you cut any dark elf army from being competitive. Take away the Bolt throwers and White Lions, and the high elves only have one competitive build left.

Nagash IS the army. Everything else in the list is support pieces to make him more effective. Take out those and you mitigate him substantially. Take him out and the UL player loses. If you lose half your army doing it then that's just fine, because whatever you have left will mop him up easily (notwithstanding anything scary that he's raised). Calculating what a couple hundred points of shooting at him does is stupid, since 100% of your shooting will be either directed at him or his hierotitan/casket all game.

As for the Elves, firstly you're forgetting about frost phoenixes which are hands down the best unit in that book. White lions are slow and easily mitigated as well, which is why in uncomped you're more likely to see silverhelms carrying the BotWD over the white lions. I only ever see WL in Swedish these days, as a unit of 20 or so with the banner is till quite cheap.

As for DE, they also have incredibly cheap and hitty masters going for them, a very solid lore in Dark magic, excellent fast cav in core, witch elves which give many opponents serious headaches, and execs which are some of the best elite infantry in the game (not that elite infantry is very much in the spotlight these days).

Warriors of Chaos are overplayed everywhere, but they're only strong on paper. Their playstyle is too monodimensional to succeed in an uncomped meta. They only really excel in Swedish, where they can get away with murder so long as they don't have chariots in core. Empire are a solid army, but no way are they above the two elf books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vetril wrote:

I think you don't play wood elves. You are missing the fact that glade guard is not very mobile, fold really fast under any kind of pressure, and is expensive in points. Glade guard's role is not to go out and shoot Nagash, because all those shots will be wasted, while they could be put to good use somewhere else.
FYI, I have no problem killing Nagash with elves, as I said in that quoted post, so maybe you want to read the content more carefully.

I do not, but I do play undead and have plenty of experience playing AGAINST the WE. Every wound that GG chip off Nagash is one more spell he's not casting on Undeath raising up new units. Though you're right: they're much better off shooting at his support pieces who don't have the same sort of saves. But once you've killed his hierotitan and casket (turn 1 or 2 latest) you can start putting pressure on the big guy.

I apologize if I misconstrued your arguments as another anti-Nagash whine. It would seem that I got the wrong impression off the first paragraph of your post and didn't read the rest closely enough to properly gauge the tone. I fully agree with you that Elves really don't have much difficulty taking down Nagash, which is why I was too quick to jump down your throat. Having played WE plenty of times with my VC I can say that they're up there with Light Councils as being among their worst matchups.

I'm curious what standing the End Times books will have once the 9th edition (and presumably the combined army books) comes out. Will they exist mainly for fluff purposes?

I'm finding myself interested in getting into Fantasy, but I think I might be better served to wait a number of months to see how this all pans out. The combined army book idea I can actually get behind, but if it ends up being $75+ I don't think even multiple lists in the book will make it feel worth the investment.

 Accolade wrote:
I'm curious what standing the End Times books will have once the 9th edition (and presumably the combined army books) comes out. Will they exist mainly for fluff purposes?

I'm finding myself interested in getting into Fantasy, but I think I might be better served to wait a number of months to see how this all pans out. The combined army book idea I can actually get behind, but if it ends up being $75+ I don't think even multiple lists in the book will make it feel worth the investment.

Knowing what GW have done with supplements in the past, it'll fade and be abandoned. Best wait for 9th and see.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
End Times has ruined WHFB. Not so much the rules changes. But the big guys.

Allow me to put it into perspective. I took a cauldron based gunline to a game vs Nagash. Four Bolt Throwers and 30 crossbows. All rerolling all failed to wound rolls.

Yet, the only method I had to reliably kill Nagash was to six dice final transmutation and hope he rolled the six.


Fluffwise, I love it.

Ruleswise, I'm not too fond, but I can deal with it.

KFA and Nagash can eat all the bags of dicks in the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNQxlQZfv4
that's an evening right there...bag of dicks...

If there is a dwarf book, with golems or steam suits, I will praise End Times as a huge success, if not, I'll probably go whine in a corner about how its not fair that everyone else has big models.

In terms of it ruining Warhammer, I don't think so. Believe it or not, not everyone had loads of money flying out their arse, and even if Nagash and Kaine and Glotkin are OP, its fine, I only know of two such models being bought in my local area,
and we tend not to play huge points games where you can take them. And if I do encounter such models, I'll just send 2 cannonballs at it a turn until it dies from multiple wounds, and maybe massed organ guns and thunderers as well.

 Accolade wrote:
I'm curious what standing the End Times books will have once the 9th edition (and presumably the combined army books) comes out. Will they exist mainly for fluff purposes?

I'm finding myself interested in getting into Fantasy, but I think I might be better served to wait a number of months to see how this all pans out. The combined army book idea I can actually get behind, but if it ends up being $75+ I don't think even multiple lists in the book will make it feel worth the investment.

Start Skaven then. Worst thing that can happen is that you have to discard 2 big models, or use them as counts-as.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
If there is a dwarf book, with golems or steam suits, I will praise End Times as a huge success, if not, I'll probably go whine in a corner about how its not fair that everyone else has big models.

In terms of it ruining Warhammer, I don't think so. Believe it or not, not everyone had loads of money flying out their arse, and even if Nagash and Kaine and Glotkin are OP, its fine, I only know of two such models being bought in my local area,
and we tend not to play huge points games where you can take them. And if I do encounter such models, I'll just send 2 cannonballs at it a turn until it dies from multiple wounds, and maybe massed organ guns and thunderers as well.

The Glottkin are also Initiative 1, meaning you've got a 4/6 chance to kill them with a purple sun or pit. Nagash only has a 4+4++. They're really not that bad.